Info: Efficiency vs. Damage Per Pec

I'm sure looter skill though came after the loot 2 implementation.

Looter skills was effectively old school non-SIB weapons stats, moved from the weapon too the loot return instead.

It allowed MA to say your weapon might be 10/10 but with the illusion of making it SIB. But now the need to skill 3 types of looter skills instead. Unless you specialise to one mob.

MA is like Mexican food, changes all amount to the same thing, it's just wrapped differently. Haha

RICK

Doesn't matter if it came after, they are in the "optimized and improved" part. They can add how
many skills they want, it is still within the need to max out to reduce inefficiency.

I put some thoughts and speculation here mostly as questions, I have a rough idea about
it already, these questions are for others:

What is looter prof stands? A bunch of skills that we both gain doing the action, but also a lot
of skills we have to do other actions to gain. Why is that?
Is it due to making it harder to max out efficiency from looter prof stand skills?
Why include hard to get skills in loot calculation (not the prof stand, but individual skills)?
Why include skills that are gained from a profession that was more or less killed many years
ago (scanning)? Why did some ubers scan NPCs back in 2003 several hours every night, is it
due to these skills always have been there to influence outcome?

Even though a skill might have 4% influence in a prof stand, as Xenobiology have, when it
work as individual skill in influence of loot is it point level that is important? Do all skills then
have equal influence and is based on the level of points (with a cap at 10k maybe)?
Is this why some that have bumped their prof stands up and still complain their loot is bad
even though their prof stand is high, but have a lot of undeveloped skills with low points?

If we look at loot 2.0 announcment in a total different perspective, why did that and also
removal of keys for strongboxes for those in Sweden pop up just before the new gambling law
came out Sweden?

There a LOT more questions I could drop, but for now, at least give these some thoughts.
 
Unless you are talking about killing Levi Alpha with opalos, it's BS. You can get pretty good loot composition on big maturity levis with avg dps for a medium hunter (say around 70-80 level) which means killing it with much more than 9-10 shots. This leads me to believe, as I said above, the DPP influences the amount of shrapnel you get on top of the same stackable you'd get anyway, regardless of DPP (ofc, in the range of 3 to 4.5).
I'm killing a mob with 185 shots and I get awesome loot composition. (The Eviscerator). Number of hots means nothing.

i was talking about it in general. I ran some tracking there on Demon Hackers.
Solo with Armatrix 47% Shrapnell.
Duo 33% Shrapnell.
The only difference between solo and duo was killspeed, so less health regen and a little armor decay.
TT-return was roughly the same.

What's the health regen of levi & evi?
 
If I may add something.

As far as I know (and this doesn't really have any evidence that's not anecdotal to back it up unfortunately), higher DPP does not mean you will loot "nicer" things. Just that you will spend less to loot that nicer thing (which in effect changes your loot composition).

The most obvious item that you can see this effect on is strongbox loots. If at a particular DPP, you loot 1 strongbox every 100 peds, if you improve your DPP by 25%, decreasing cost to kill by 20%, you will expect to loot a box every 80 peds instead that is cycled.

Your chance of looting a box stays the same per mob...but your cost to kill is lower, and changes your loot composition. Hope that helps clarify things.

Edit: Just noticed Evey said the same thing I did basically :D
 
For example having the "best" in game whip skill, taming skills and a top end pet with 500k xp that gives 20% skill gain, gives MA a problem.

Edit: add to that next to zero overkill. Because with taming you attempt tame 99% of the time under the HP of the mob before looting. With enough skill it should be possible to beat the loot algorithm (with enough mobs looted).

Hence why i smile back at MA with their adjustments. They know dam well I can make 50% profit a run, if they allow it.

Rick, there isn't enough tin foil in the world to fit your head.

Also, when you tame a mob, your return is based on your cost, just like hunting. You spend less when taming, so your return is lower. There should be no way to "beat" the loot algorithm when taming. It worked similar in loot 1.0 where your return on a tame was lower than if you had killed the mob. But back then, the system was potentially able to be beat due to high DPP weapon, crit rings/armor, & luck of tame first go.

Plus if you tamed low level punys, you could get between 1-3pecs for squishing the pets in a stable, so depending on your costs you may have gain a few small pecs every now and then.

Being a high level tamer, you should know all this...perhaps your wacky theories are just getting in the way of common sense??
 
DPP - Damage Per Pec. Unlike efficiency, this affects the quality of the loot, in other words, your ability to loot nicer things as opposed to just shrapnel. For example, if farming for hides, a weapon with higher [efficiency] DPP would reveal more hides in the loot as opposed to shrapnel.

corrected this for you.
 
What is looter prof stands? A bunch of skills that we both gain doing the action, but also a lot
of skills we have to do other actions to gain. Why is that?
Is it due to making it harder to max out efficiency from looter prof stand skills?
Why include hard to get skills in loot calculation (not the prof stand, but individual skills)?
Why include skills that are gained from a profession that was more or less killed many years
ago (scanning)? Why did some ubers scan NPCs back in 2003 several hours every night, is it
due to these skills always have been there to influence outcome?

There was a time in game that simply any "skill gain", contributed to loot return. Good examples of that were scanning and repairing.

It was accident discovering that, finding activities at low cost, rather than seeking to exploit the system.

You could scan for an hour, then go off hunt some drones, thrn HOF loot a full item. Then rinse and repeat once your peds ran out. Or repair for two hours on a ship, jump off at CP, then loot a ton of globals.

None of that was MU related, it was simply skill gain. The system changed though to HP gain rather than all skill gain.

Then it evolved again in loot 2 too "your HP" and how you managed it during play. Hence armour became critical.

MA worked out the immersed players quickly learned what triggered loot and adjusted the system.

Now its ped input, I think skill other than total avatar HP, don't hold much influence anymore.

Gsme is always changing, but much of the joy of discovering what triggers returns, has disappeared.

Oh well

Rick.
 
Another thing to think about is that DPP is just a statistic, not a mechanism.
"-So what, doesn't matter?" might some say, but it do matter.

When we interact with a target, we need to use most efficient amount of interactions
but also most efficient value that we create with our set up.
Not in a way that just one value is right but rather like a bell curve, when we peak
we are as efficient as we can be, if we are on either side of that peak, we get a
result that get more and more unefficient the longer we are from that peak.

Every interaction is linear in cost if we use same set up, and if we have managed to
calculate and find max efficiency, here comes the part that DPP is not a mechanism.
If we use this set up and start using a finisher that have wrong values, our total
value becomes less good, and ROI will be worse. If we have no clue how to calculate
and use maxed set up, the finisher can both decrease and increase the value we create,
all depending on how good or bad that value the main set up create to a specific type
of target.

Now, what about damage? Damage is just a tool to control amount of interactions with
the target. To complicate it some, they went from fixed damage to a flexible damage
and also to have non-damage interactions.
If we do use a maxed set up, our non-damage interactions will reduce. If we interact
with a mob where we have to heal while it is still alive our amount of interactions will
not be most efficient and the value will drop on that bell curve.
Even if we do get some back from a heal decay, it will not be as good as a clean kill
without disruptions.
With more interactions our cost will increase since we interact more often.
 
If I may add something.

As far as I know (and this doesn't really have any evidence that's not anecdotal to back it up unfortunately), higher DPP does not mean you will loot "nicer" things. Just that you will spend less to loot that nicer thing (which in effect changes your loot composition).

The most obvious item that you can see this effect on is strongbox loots. If at a particular DPP, you loot 1 strongbox every 100 peds, if you improve your DPP by 25%, decreasing cost to kill by 20%, you will expect to loot a box every 80 peds instead that is cycled.

Your chance of looting a box stays the same per mob...but your cost to kill is lower, and changes your loot composition. Hope that helps clarify things.

Edit: Just noticed Evey said the same thing I did basically :D

I believe Jhereg sumarized it very well. I actually didnt see things from this perspective, but it makes a lot of sense. Thank you.:)
 
There was a time in game that simply any "skill gain", contributed to loot return. Good examples of that were scanning and repairing.

It was accident discovering that, finding activities at low cost, rather than seeking to exploit the system.

You could scan for an hour, then go off hunt some drones, thrn HOF loot a full item. Then rinse and repeat once your peds ran out. Or repair for two hours on a ship, jump off at CP, then loot a ton of globals.

None of that was MU related, it was simply skill gain. The system changed though to HP gain rather than all skill gain.

Then it evolved again in loot 2 too "your HP" and how you managed it during play. Hence armour became critical.

MA worked out the immersed players quickly learned what triggered loot and adjusted the system.

Now its ped input, I think skill other than total avatar HP, don't hold much influence anymore.

Gsme is always changing, but much of the joy of discovering what triggers returns, has disappeared.

Oh well

Rick.

Yes but this had to do with the cost of interactions, not realy related to skills, since you had
approx same outcome no matter if you got skills or not.

As soon as I looted a scanner I ran it down. Same with FAPs. Always had a bump in loot
after that. This was from summer 2003 and some years forward.

It was no exploit at first, but became a risk when eventsystem came. You could build up values
from scanning, healing, crafting and so on, and then head to a event, get a global quite fast
and get a top placement in that event. Good thing they fixed events so no more problems
could occur... ehm yeah..... :D :silly2:

Another (possible) exploit that was related to skills were when one player HoFed a shitload.
He HoFed and then used skilltools, HoFed and used that tool again, over and over again.
When MA noticed this they stoped drop and use of old type of ESI, and when it finally came
back that player and HoFs were gone.
 
One thing I learned while tracking over 10 million ped turnover in the last 4 years and a half is that in order to get some data without influence from variation you need very large numbers. With that in mind, I would need solid numbers (or dev statement) to believe that on same kill count you can get more stackables (except shrapnel) with higher DPP (I'd compare old school avg dpp of 3 with new dpp of 4+)

Go cycle like 20k (all it takes) with a swine.
 
Makes sense now, always wondered why Captain Jack is in incognito all day long, guess he is hiding from the balancing manager :laugh:
He always figure out the things before the rest of us.

Next time add some jk or lol or smiley, because if not, peoples will belive you are serious.

Being incognito does not help. :wise:
 
Go cycle like 20k (all it takes) with a swine.

HA! Now I know how you got 90% tt return :laugh:
(j/k)

There's a threshold for sure tho, where things get skewed, still, 1st is efficiency, then the dpp, but sometimes can be dps that is preferred, you just need the best tool you can get that has good numbers on all these 3 aspects.
 
HA! Now I know how you got 90% tt return :laugh:
(j/k)

There's a threshold for sure tho, where things get skewed, still, 1st is efficiency, then the dpp, but sometimes can be dps that is preferred, you just need the best tool you can get that has good numbers on all these 3 aspects.

Under 90%. But swine was only a small part of ped cycled, I've taken that into account.

Swine is shrap city, much lower % of oils and other things. The difference is probably much less comparing 65% to 80 or 90%, but still a factor.
 
Under 90%. But swine was only a small part of ped cycled, I've taken that into account.

Swine is shrap city, much lower % of oils and other things. The difference is probably much less comparing 65% to 80 or 90%, but still a factor.

Then what if... the efficiency you use on a specific day of the month determines the tt return you'll be getting for the next cycle (be it month or amount of PED)? ;)
 
Just waiting for the first entropialife "but you haven't turned over enough ped" comment. :popcorn:
 
Then what if... the efficiency you use on a specific day of the month determines the tt return you'll be getting for the next cycle (be it month or amount of PED)? ;)

:eyecrazy:
 
If I may add something.

As far as I know (and this doesn't really have any evidence that's not anecdotal to back it up unfortunately), higher DPP does not mean you will loot "nicer" things. Just that you will spend less to loot that nicer thing (which in effect changes your loot composition).

The most obvious item that you can see this effect on is strongbox loots. If at a particular DPP, you loot 1 strongbox every 100 peds, if you improve your DPP by 25%, decreasing cost to kill by 20%, you will expect to loot a box every 80 peds instead that is cycled.

Your chance of looting a box stays the same per mob...but your cost to kill is lower, and changes your loot composition. Hope that helps clarify things.

Edit: Just noticed Evey said the same thing I did basically :D

Interesting point. Still reading up on everyone's input on this, nice to see the different views though.
 
If I may add something.

As far as I know (and this doesn't really have any evidence that's not anecdotal to back it up unfortunately), higher DPP does not mean you will loot "nicer" things. Just that you will spend less to loot that nicer thing (which in effect changes your loot composition).

The most obvious item that you can see this effect on is strongbox loots. If at a particular DPP, you loot 1 strongbox every 100 peds, if you improve your DPP by 25%, decreasing cost to kill by 20%, you will expect to loot a box every 80 peds instead that is cycled.

Your chance of looting a box stays the same per mob...but your cost to kill is lower, and changes your loot composition. Hope that helps clarify things.

Edit: Just noticed Evey said the same thing I did basically :D

It wouldn't be too hard to formally test either. Just get two weapons that vary to a degree in DPP. Kill a mob with one, record how much you get of each item, repeat with the other weapon, switch back to weapon 1, etc. until you have 100-200 kills or more. Track the number of shots to adjust for cost/kill, and that would be enough for statistical tests in most cases to determine if there is a difference in find rate for say animal hide between the two or not if you went out to 10,000 or 100,000 loot events.
 
Efficiency is directly tied to the TT RETURNS the hunter will get. Hunting with a weapon that has an 80% Efficiency rating as opposed to one that has 58% means 1.54% more returns in the long-term.


Can you please cite your source on this? The only official commentary I can find is MA stating that efficiency impacts TT returns up to 7% total, but I can't locate where they indicate that it's a completely linear formula with each % of efficiency equal to 0.07% return.
 
Can you please cite your source on this? The only official commentary I can find is MA stating that efficiency impacts TT returns up to 7% total, but I can't locate where they indicate that it's a completely linear formula with each % of efficiency equal to 0.07% return.

it was a separate comment by charlie from Mindark somewhere in that loot 2.0 clarification thread. Efficiency means more loot and looter skill means more loot


implying there is some base level of return universe wide and you can improve on that amount with gear and skills.
 
it was a separate comment by charlie from Mindark somewhere in that loot 2.0 clarification thread. Efficiency means more loot and looter skill means more loot


implying there is some base level of return universe wide and you can improve on that amount with gear and skills.

But the problem is that we are not sure if it is a linear progression. What if it is logarithmic and the growth rate in loot% gets lower the higher eff you have? That would imply going from 60 to 70 eff has a bigger impact than going from 70 to 80.

(I actually choose to believe this is the case, in order to make it easier for the average hunter. Would be nice if MA confirmed it though).
 
But the problem is that we are not sure if it is a linear progression. What if it is logarithmic and the growth rate in loot% gets lower the higher eff you have? That would imply going from 60 to 70 eff has a bigger impact than going from 70 to 80.

It's been tested and tests are on the forums. I also did some with Mathilda to confirm, both looter and effi work the same, meaning taht when one is equal the other will bring extra .7% with every 10 levels.
So if effi is equal but oen avatar has 10 extra looter levels, out of the same mob while team hunting, the more skilled avatar will get with 0.7% more loot than his 'newbie' friend. When looter is the same but the effi is different, it acts the same as above, ofc, the cost per mob has to be identical.

I'm assuming they don't stack but they act as an average, but it's an assumption only. Needs to be tested, but it's very hard to find very different weapons effi-wise but same cost/shot.

It's never been officially clarified (nor will be I'm sure)
 
it was a separate comment by charlie from Mindark somewhere in that loot 2.0 clarification thread. Efficiency means more loot and looter skill means more loot


implying there is some base level of return universe wide and you can improve on that amount with gear and skills.


Right, I mean specifically that 1% efficiency = 0.07% return. It's not quoted in the meta thread and I haven't been able to locate where MA officially stated this - the only quote I found was that it was up to 7% total.

If this has been officially clarified it would be great if someone could cite the source.


edit: Was slow on the reply. It's great that players have tested this, but that is not the same as an official statement.
 
Right, I mean specifically that 1% efficiency = 0.07% return. It's not quoted in the meta thread and I haven't been able to locate where MA officially stated this - the only quote I found was that it was up to 7% total.

If this has been officially clarified it would be great if someone could cite the source.


edit: Was slow on the reply. It's great that players have tested this, but that is not the same as an official statement.

It's an easy test, grab 2 identical weapons, and go with a friend of different looter level. Find a mob in which you are 100% sure you have done equal shots. The results will be pretty accurate, 0.07% loot difference for each looter level between you two.
 
It's an easy test, grab 2 identical weapons, and go with a friend of different looter level. Find a mob in which you are 100% sure you have done equal shots. The results will be pretty accurate, 0.07% loot difference for each looter level between you two.


I was talking about efficiency, but yea I got you.

I would presume that I am not able to cycle enough to make for an accurate test, so I appreciate people like you doing the leg work. :)
 
I was talking about efficiency, but yea I got you.

I would presume that I am not able to cycle enough to make for an accurate test, so I appreciate people like you doing the leg work. :)

You only need one mob looted, but equal shots and the challenge, the right tools :D
Took me a while but found it for you, a test done a couple of years ago that has some relevant data showing this.
 
You only need one mob looted, but equal shots and the challenge, the right tools :D
Took me a while but found it for you, a test done a couple of years ago that has some relevant data showing this.

Thank you for this info. I totally forgot about this thread! Well, it seems it is linear afterall.
 
This would mean that base tt return % would have to be what, 87%? 87 x 1.14 = 99.18.

So if that's the case and you are a new player using a Bukin's Spare Rifle with 57.2 eff and you are let's say level 1 looter you should get about 90.5% tt return?
 
This would mean that base tt return % would have to be what, 87%? 87 x 1.14 = 99.18.

So if that's the case and you are a new player using a Bukin's Spare Rifle with 57.2 eff and you are let's say level 1 looter you should get about 90.5% tt return?

I don't think they stack, more like there's an avg between the two, would make much more sense.
 
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