Clarification about Entropia banking operations

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just like the real world

companies draw everything to theirselves, and make it for regular ppl impossible

Pfffffft, havent u seen that movie called "Fight Club"?:silly2:
If we act as a cool community those companies wont stand a chance.
Ok, ok, I am too much of a dreamer, but I so much despise those huge, cold companies where you have to sell your soul to get a living by the standards that they dictate!
And we have that crap IRL too much to have it in here as well...
 
Everytime people get used to the last piece of BS you implemented,
you come up with something even worse, MA...

We pay for it, we wanna have fun!

There is no point in paying for feeling pissed off all the time!

Is that so goddamn hard to understand?

And your next toy/mall/bank license will be hard to sell with a shrinking playerbase, as every service needs customers!

I really ask myself where you wanna end up with all that, if not on the caymans...??!!


ESI's, anyone?
 
Please explain to us Marco why services like the selling of IPO shares by Anshe Chung is something acceptable. I see that and loaning ped being same thing. People give away their money for something MA doesn`t offer any guarentee. Basically ANshe`s selling NOTHING. I think if MA takes a stance against things done outside official system you should always ban this practice as well.


Here`s the link to her service which might be as biggest scam as the loaning services some ppl started https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68226
 
Please explain to us Marco why services like the selling of IPO shares by Anshe Chung is something acceptable. I see that and loaning ped being same thing. People give away their money for something MA doesn`t offer any guarentee. Basically ANshe`s selling NOTHING. I think if MA takes a stance against things done outside official system you should always ban this practice as well.


Here`s the link to her service which might be as biggest scam as the loaning services some ppl started https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68226

Will be hard to find a answer that doesn't read like
"Coz there are different rules for people paying us $50K for some uber toy instead of your monthly $50"
 
To clarify the clarification - MA will target avatars who state they offer loan services (or equal) as business (and not having a virtual banking license). Private loans, the borrowing or lending of items/money between friends, is not the target......

Ok, now we talk.
1. When do you consider Loaning as Banking as "Service" or Business. If you have a shop and advertice on EF and InGame something like "Bear´s Armor and Guns Service" where you can "buy" gear and you supposed to give it back after a certain time (trade it back for less than you paid), is this not allowed anymore? (No, i do not intend to offer such service). This is actually the opposit service of Banks or Loans.

2. May i raise money with advertising InGame and on EF for a Business? So i issue bonds to people who think i have a good idea for a service. I could e-mail them the bonds. Every month i give those people intressests on those Bonds. Is this not allowed? Or which part of this raise a problem?

3. Is it allowed to trade items for ped and speak out a gurantie that my "customers" may buy back those items within a limited time frame for a certain markup?

4. In General, do you allow to make a real company (RL) and to work as one inside EU? Do you consider contracts of this RL company concerning EU as Scamm?


As to scammers in general, MA is locking accounts due to scams and frauds. Maybe we should have a weekly posting of "Accounts locked since last week" somewhere to have transparancy, maybe we should add the number of warnings an avatar has when people interact with the avatar. Obviously there are things that can be improved.

This would be REALLY GREAT! Make some Red Bones fly over the head for those people! Like the stars of the Guids.
If they have their second warning, make them wear some "jail-clothes" and disable private trade. Would help a lot!
(Not that we all (most) asked for that since a long time...)
 
Will be hard to find a answer that doesn't read like
"Coz there are different rules for people paying us $50K for some uber toy instead of your monthly $50"

marco said:
MA will target avatars who state they offer loan services (or equal) as business (and not having a virtual banking license).

You could interpret this that when someone has a bank license it's ok to offer loan services (or equal) even outside the official system.
 
Akoz said:
22 May 2007 You wrote:
Hi
The five "banking" licenses you sold guaranteed the buyers a bank, a NPC and access to your pawnshop system. Is it still allowed for other players without a license to run pawnlike shops ?
28 May 2007 Entropia Support:
Hi,
The bank systems are safe systems where all transactions are defined and guaranteed by MindArk PE AB. If participants want to use pawnshop services outside these safe systems, we cannot object to that, but we also cannot offer support if problems occur.
Regards,
Entropia Support

This doesn't mean other ventures such as desscribed above are un-authorized, only that if anything would happen during such dealings, MindArk will not offer support - as in, "all trades are final" (as they are considered trades, not "loans").
So, first we have the policies of just a few days ago, which makes it seem as though you have adopted a "use at your own risk" policy, with the condition that there will be no assistance to either party should a support case arise from our actions.

When they get fooled by a scammer bank avatar they lose all trust in Entropia and in MindArk. It creates support cases, grief and anger.

Ok, you dont want anyone "fooled", or to "lose trust in Entropia and Mindark". that seems reasonable..

Therefore, any loan services offered outside the approved bank system will be considered by MindArk as scam attempts and the avatar offering such services risk a permanent lockdown of his/her account.
And then we have this load of crap. What about retaining the trust from your active playerbase? I feel "fooled", and I definitely would not trust you guys as far as I could throw you at this point.

While other players are out there scamming, and you are quite well aware that they have "shady" histories, you choose to target reputable players who have a hell of a lot more to lose by scamming or "fooling" someone, and a hell of a lot more to gain by continuing to run a reputable trustworthy business.
 
Think with Anshe's enterprise I can probably see one of several things happening.

Firstly we find that the Banking licenses have the capabilities to link directly to the outside world, thereby legitimising the share trading site.

Or MA confirms that the protection on trades as mentioned ingame for Bank licensees also applies to the website.

Or MA stops it, perhaps through a face saving exercises for both companies, MA and Anshe Chung Ltd. Anshe refunds those who bought shares snd then relaunches the stock exchange to investors in the other game or to the real life investors that she has.

Who knows many possibilities and scenarios :)

One things for sure, last year 110,000,000 PEDs were deposited, so even with all the controversy EU appears to be bouyant. But I don't think this will be the last topic that will prove controversial in the coming months.
 
Ok, sry for posting so much first of all, but a crazy idea came to my mind.
There may be ways around this latest statement that MA made to protect its investors. We are talking in terms of "business" and "publicity", etc. But we dont necesarilly need to call them a business, they can just be "helpers" for example, that would get a profit of their own for helping a friend.
Here are some premises:
1. Loaning between friends is not "targeted" by MA, therefore OK.
2. Akoz, Cindy and Teilik are well-known, respected players with lots of friends.
3. These 3 guys have the meanings to loan stuff to other players, in this case, "friends". They also are willing to loan stuff to them.
4. Their "friends" can "brag around EF or other places of how much they have been helped by them", etc, etc.
The conclusion is: CBE can continue what they are doing if they are changing some "semantics". Afterall, all trades are final between normal people when not talking about business, right? ;)


Edit: On a side note: MA could just make a difference between official banks and unofficial ones and leave us the freedom to choose.
They could warn the newbies that unofficial banks are not secured and that is that!
But ... MA cant do that ... they already drank the champagne I am afraid... if u know what I mean...
 
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You could interpret this that when someone has a bank license it's ok to offer loan services (or equal) even outside the official system.


All transactions made via this official bank system, such as loans, defaults, securities, interest etc., are safe and as such guaranteed by MindArk.

Well, i am pretty sure Mindark won't guarantee for the IPO shares by Anshe Chung!!!
 
Newcomers come to Entropia, they have read about the banking license and assume baning is safe in Entropia. All banking.


i still dont understand why this was the "only" course of action. If wishing to protect those new people coming in on the Banking news, why not just ban the use of the word "bank" in relation to financial services that are outside the licences? why name alot of people as scammers in the process? and really, how many newbies are going to have security for loan/pawn businesses?
 
To clarify the clarification - MA will target avatars who state they offer loan services (or equal) as business (and not having a virtual banking license). Private loans, the borrowing or lending of items/money between friends, is not the target.

Newcomers come to Entropia, they have read about the banking license and assume baning is safe in Entropia. All banking. When they get fooled by a scammer bank avatar they lose all trust in Entropia and in MindArk. It creates support cases, grief and anger. Many newcomers doesn't really understand the concept of virtual items having real value until after something bad happens. This time we wanted to act before the situation gets out of hand, and to protect the community and add safety to the virtual environment. Many of the newcomers today don't have the knowledge or insight of the culture and mechanics in Entropia, thus meaning MA must add means to protect them.

We lose all trust in you more than anyone will ever meet in game.
As to scammers in general, MA is locking accounts due to scams and frauds. Maybe we should have a weekly posting of "Accounts locked since last week" somewhere to have transparancy, maybe we should add the number of warnings an avatar has when people interact with the avatar. Obviously there are things that can be improved.

This should have been something you should have done prior to the banking system. The fact that you held a blind eye policy to scamming prior to this just make your comapny look like fools and harsh.
 
Selling shares and having people invest in somthing you do is like a reversed loan.
 
Ok, sry for posting so much first of all, but a crazy idea came to my mind.
There may be ways around this latest statement that MA made to protect its investors. We are talking in terms of "business" and "publicity", etc. But we dont necesarilly need to call them a business, they can just be "helpers" for example, that would get a profit of their own for helping a friend.
Here are some premises:
1. Loaning between friends is not "targeted" by MA, therefore OK.
2. Akoz, Cindy and Teilik are well-known, respected players with lots of friends.
3. These 3 guys have the meanings to loan stuff to other players, in this case, "friends". They also are willing to loan stuff to them.
4. Their "friends" can "brag around EF or other places of how much they have been helped by them", etc, etc.
The conclusion is: CBE can continue what they are doing if they are changing some "semantics". Afterall, all trades are final between normal people when not talking about business, right? ;)


Edit: On a side note: MA could just make a difference between official banks and unofficial ones and leave us the freedom to choose.
They could warn the newbies that unofficial banks are not secured and that is that!
But ... MA cant do that ... they already drank the champagne I am afraid... if u know what I mean...

An interesting thought, however I look at the whole thing very simply:
What some 'freelancers' are doing is simply trading ( logged as usual) with a 'gentlemans agreement' which includes the option buy back the item.
They maybe happen to make profit from the whole ;)
But the bottom line is you sell something, you may buy it back(depending who you sell it to & the price)

I'm a little concern that MA are out their depth these kind of investors. As long they remember who their customers are! Personally, I think bank licence thing is not viable business on it's own (not on that kind of scale).
This is why I MA are panicking a little, they might have oversold a turkey with no chance of any golden eggs (if you follow me)
my 2pecs
 
An interesting thought, however I look at the whole thing very simply:
What some 'freelancers' are doing is simply trading ( logged as usual) with a 'gentlemans agreement' which includes the option buy back the item.
They maybe happen to make profit from the whole ;)
But the bottom line is you sell something, you may buy it back(depending who you sell it to & the price)

I'm a little concern that MA are out their depth these kind of investors. As long they remember who their customers are! Personally, I think bank licence thing is not viable business on it's own (not on that kind of scale).
This is why I MA are panicking a little, they might have oversold a turkey with no chance of any golden eggs (if you follow me)
my 2pecs

Yes, I totally agree with you: its only trading basically. But we also need the publicity. For that to happen, their friends can help them by "introducing" other friends of their friends, etc, etc. A whole society can do that as well.


Edit: I also have an intuition that these banking licenses were overpriced a lot and its all just a bluff... oh well, its their concern (the ones who payed for them I mean)
 
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Selling shares and having people invest in somthing you do is like a reversed loan.

Exactly, this is why i`d like to hear Marco`s thoughts on this. Cos like Anshe everyone could start selling "shares". Let`s say I say have 1mil ped of stuff I wanna invest and I sell shares worth 3mil ped to ppl and If my investment is profitable I give people dividends. Every reseller can start selling "shares" like that with no regulation, scamming ppl at will.
 
I was planning to change my path in this universe and to start my own small business. In order to start it (and maintain it) i would have used the "banking system" official or non official.

I studied carefull the offers of CBE and thought it was a very good option for me. Now as i see it CBE is no more an option and i will be forced to use one of the 5 "official bankers". If you look carefully on those 5, only 1 of them is a known and active member of our community.

So honestly where is MY RIGHT to choose ?

What will be next MA ? A banking line such as pilots do ?
 
All this is started by the bank licence owners. And a small warning from me - and I'm sure from some of us to. I will never use their service if people who did this for some time and are respected are threten to be locked. I prefer to deposit. There are bancks IRL, you know...
And because of the hostile aproach of the competition, I will ONLY - if ever - borow money from avatars I know and respect. Just like I don't hunt anymore on "some" lands...

I undersstand and respect MA point of view, but with all the respect, I hope it will be reconsidered.
You buy a licence to have authority. You buy authority by having a fair life all the time. I prefer the second statement...
 
This whole money stinks. To me it looks too much like the real world corruption, making the richest richer and rest poorer. Marco stated that they are trying to protect the weak arriving at Port Atlantis. I think they are trying to protect the big investers money. Make sure their money is secure and safe so they will invest even more to gain even more.

This "pre-emptive" strike against possible scammers is exactly like the real world pre-emtive strike against terrorism. Taking away our rights to deal with who we want and create business that we want. To protect us. Any government that feels the need to protect their people over and over again considers their people stupid mindless beings. Remember that you are a government of your own world MA.

I've read many statements of Marco that "part of the enjoyment of Entropian Universe is to figure things out by yourself and with the help of the community". You take that enjoyment away when you "protect" us from any possible scammer. Can't you see that it is also enjoying to learn about succesfull and trusting unsecured business.

Overly protect the meek and they will never grow strong. Having always to rely on your protection in everything they do. Is that what you want MA? To secure every part of EU so that people can't make a mistake anymore. Create costumers that have no knowedge by themselfs because everytime they are close to making a mistake you're there to protect them. Giving them little warning messages "You can't go any further. Over there is a PvP area where you can kill and get killed by other players. Because of your equipment and skills you will not be able to enter this area." or "Stop! Over there is a creature called Snablesnot-Male Young. This creature does acid damage and you have no protection. An encounter with this creature will possible lead to your death."

Protection against possible scammers, yeah right! :rolleyes::scared::rolleyes:
 
Protecting the newcomers? LOL Most of the new arrivals have no peds or property to be scammed of! That's the largest load of hooey I've seen to date.

Try increasing the spin, Marco. The picture isn't blurry enough to keep us from seeing it yet.

If you were really interested in protecting the poor innocent noobs, MA would have been agressively (and visibly... good for PR you know "Look! MA is keeping the system safe for you!") going after the scammers at PA, correcting the flaws with the mentor system, and not targeting players that are trusted by the community. If I were to use suck a service, I would certainly NOT use the new 500 pound gorillas on the block, but one of the ones established by credible players within the game.

We trust ourselves more than we trust you Marco. MA needs to work on that.

AG

PS as a side note, the "Booking list of busted avatars" seems like a good idea, and *might* help you to win some credibility back.
 
I think that MA should let the ones that provided this service before they implemented the bank licenses to continue their business.
Considering that Teilik was doing this for quite a while BEFORE all this change happened, CBE must be let to continue its pursue on this.
It would be a fair compromise that would satisfy somehow both MA and us, the players.
 
No, it would NOT. The trades mult be free. If a scam is reported, it should be investigated, but if I whant, I can give for free or mor more than market value to anyone I whant any item I whant. I don't give valuble items because of this crappy system, and therefore I never borow anything. But if people do that and is fine by them, let them.
 
Everybody is talking about Akoz & Co.
What are the consequences for the H&R circle? You need to be invited into that, so you could consider them a "group of trusting friends", correct?

edit: I know it's not the same format, but Akoz & Co could setup the "ATC Circle" and only provide loans to a "group of trusted friends".
 
So I assume that Neverdie isn't a credible player now because he owns a Bank License? Then again maybe its Horses for Courses as it were on who to trust.

Is this event going to break the back of EU? Probably not. The same was said of things like the CND controversy and various VUs that nerfed bits and pieces. People leave, they come back. New people join whose expectations are different to the old-timers, who are perhaps less jaded and probably part of the silent majority who don't frequent places like EF.

And people keep on depositing ;-) And as long as people deposit they are accepting the status quo. I suspect that many people here have contributed in some measure to the 26,900,000PED that was deposited already in the first quarter of 2007.
 
To clarify the clarification - MA will target avatars who state they offer loan services (or equal) as business (and not having a virtual banking license). Private loans, the borrowing or lending of items/money between friends, is not the target.

Newcomers come to Entropia, they have read about the banking license and assume baning is safe in Entropia. All banking. When they get fooled by a scammer bank avatar they lose all trust in Entropia and in MindArk. It creates support cases, grief and anger. Many newcomers doesn't really understand the concept of virtual items having real value until after something bad happens. This time we wanted to act before the situation gets out of hand, and to protect the community and add safety to the virtual environment. Many of the newcomers today don't have the knowledge or insight of the culture and mechanics in Entropia, thus meaning MA must add means to protect them.

As to scammers in general, MA is locking accounts due to scams and frauds. Maybe we should have a weekly posting of "Accounts locked since last week" somewhere to have transparancy, maybe we should add the number of warnings an avatar has when people interact with the avatar. Obviously there are things that can be improved.

Marco-
Thank you for clarifying this makes more sense. Next time, I would not use the term "scammers" so lightly. I think this message would have got through without calling potentially legitimate businessmen "scammers".

As for protecting the banks, MA is just doing what they need to do, regulate business in EU.

As any economist will tell you, protecting property rights is one of the most important, if not the most important foundation of an economic or political system.

In this case, MA is protecting the Bank owner’s rights to their license. A strong economy is a balance between free market and regulation, and in this case a little regulation was needed.

MA used some really stupid wording but the idea to protect the rights of the bank licensee’s is the correct choice for a stronger EU.
 
On a side note:

Let's assume that some ppl continue their loan service.

- They make the agreement outside EU. (eg. PM's through EF)
- Ingame they meet and just exchange goods for peds. (Since EU economy is dynamic --> NO FIXED PRICES FOR ANYTHING and TRADING is encouraged, why wouldn't i want to buy back my sold item a few weeks later at a higher market price?)
- Even if this kind of trading happens ALOT so what? (players in here are just nutty as in RL)

I have heard of a lot if thin ice manoevers but this wins with miles...

I really would love to seethe first lockdown for this. Lawyer up and play free for the rest of your life...:yay::yay:

As for the 5 bankers who probably now face a boycott of their services even before MA has implemented their "tools" and buildings. A smart court will grant you the exclusivity of the tools, banks and some other checks and balances MA created for your banks but the right to force others out of business that launched the idea long before you were even here? No way.
Stop playing American cutthroat menaces (even there they don't work anymore, check La Salle if you a HINT) and join the game on a fair playing field.

P.S.: Look up the meaning of the term "shooting oneself in the foot".


Still don't like the idea of pawnshops though.... (and that is what they seem to be so far.. glorified pawnshops)
 
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I wonder how much more spin MA can throw at this.

This is my tribute to MA:
the "Spin Doctors"

Little miss, little miss, little miss cant be wrong
Aint nobody gonna bow no more when you sound your gong.
Little miss, little miss, little miss cant be wrong
Whatcha gonna do to get into another one of these rock n roll
Songs?

Other peoples thoughts they aint your hand-me-downs
Would it be so bad to simply turn around
You cook so well, all nice and french
You do your brain surgery too, with a monkey wrench


SO do you think MA will yield or put the authoritative boot down and stick with all loaning businesses are scammers.
 
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Newcomers come to Entropia, they have read about the banking license and assume baning is safe in Entropia. All banking.

so, a newcomer with no money or anything walks down the ramp in port atlantis. said newcomer wanders around and stumbles upon the shiney bank building. wow, they think the stories are all true. so, they look and see how it works but realise they down't have anything to pawn.

the newcomer then deposits some money to get started in the game. they talk to people and learn that they can buy shares in the shiney bank. the representives assure them that the unsecured, fake shares are backed by that nice shiney bank and they'll be investing in the economy of EU.

newcomer thinks this is great an makes an unoffical, out-of-game transaction to buy some fake stocks. after all, the bank has the backing of MA and the owners invested money to purchase the licence from MA. MA must approve of the idea. newcomer, after some time, notices that the fake stocks and fake market have no true value and are not underwritten by anyone and have no in-game presence.

the newcomer realises that the only way to recover his investment is to propagate the deception to drive up the price and recruit another mark to buy his fake stocks. the ethicial player quits in disgust. the non-ethical one propagates the scheme.

so, who was just swindled, marco?

and this is only the tip of the iceburg.

Every reseller can start selling "shares" like that with no regulation, scamming ppl at will.

marco, you guys really have to get down from your high horse and start paying attention to your game. without the underpinings of the game and the people who actually play it, all these so-called services are useless.
 
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