Warning to item buyers - The Eco Safeguard

First, I want to say that I don't blame Arkadia. I blame mindark for not letting players know this exists and preventing them from falling into a trap. They are not going to change items and I respect that. What I don't respect is that accommodations were not made when they did that with Mod merc.

As you know, the improved manta and improved mako fal do not take eco enhancers nor will it take any amp that improves the eco of the sword. In this case, the improved mako fal takes the mod 8 amp but when you equip it, it says: cannot execute, please try again later. To the hunter, this just seems like a bug or a temporary situation. However, it is not.

There is an eco safeguard on weapons to prevent them from being too eco. This leads me to believe that dpp is not as meaningful as we really thought. I'm sure the imk2 got grandfathered but amps don't improve the eco just reduces it less. We also know swords behave differently than guns because there is no ammo.

This does not just impact these two swords, this same behavior applies to some toulan guns that cannot be used right now or perhaps ever. I feel as if I have been misled when buying the mod 8 amp. It was a gamble knowing that it was a problem but one would think they would produce an error that would prevent unnecessary purchases.

So.. be warned. It took 6 months of pleading and about your support cases to get this response. Only arkadia would listen and I thank them for that. The support cases were constantly closed telling me about next island swords and were irrelevant.

I got confirmation from mindark today that nothing will be done. My recommendation was to either swap the amp or allow for the eco overage to be applied to skills. But in the end, they said.. tough cookies.

no combination of items should be disallowed because it is "too eco"...
unless it is very clearly described in the item description as from the release of the item
P.S.
"I'm sure the imk2 got grandfathered but amps don't improve the eco just reduces it less."
Disagree, this is not a matter of speculation just an easy calculation, dpp is easy - equip h204, shoot with imk2 + amp, measure dpp on both

girtsn said:

no combination of items should be disallowed because it is "too eco"...
unless it is very clearly described in the item description as from the release of the item

Click to expand...

I agree and that was my argument. But it's there. I know why the safeguard exists.. because of a pp deciding to develop a 9dpp ram. But I think the failure to let others know it exists is extremely shady.

To imk2, all amps reduce eco on the imk2. The catch here is that it can take eco enhancers so.. it seems to be unaffected by the same safeguard.

atomicstorm said:

We also know swords behave differently than guns because there is no ammo.

Click to expand...

No proof of this, unless you have info from MA?


Rgds

Ace

Ace Flyster said:

No proof of this, unless you have info from MA?


Rgds

Ace

Click to expand...

They have to behave differently because there is no ammo. But, it is an irrelevant point to the greater issue.

This is not a rage thread. I'm simply letting everyone know of the conclusion of my dillemma and something that is in the game that shouldn't be... and mindark is being silent on.

atomicstorm said:

They have to behave differently because there is no ammo. But, it is an irrelevant point to the greater issue.

Click to expand...

They don't 'have' to behave differently. (just saying)

People have argued for years about no ammo melee.....based on NOTHING.


Rgds

Ace

Ace Flyster said:

They don't 'have' to behave differently. (just saying)

People have argued for years about no ammo melee.....based on NOTHING.


Rgds

Ace

Click to expand...

I will concede the point just because it's not really relevant to the problem. I don't want to get into my loot patterns from all my configurations right now.

atomicstorm said:

I will concede the point just because it's not really relevant to the problem. I don't want to get into my loot patterns from all my configurations right now.

Click to expand...

Fair enough, let the conversation continue....(I still would bet my left leg, there is no proof, as it's cost of click, melee = decay of item, guns = decay of gun + ammo,)


Rgds

Ace

atomicstorm said:

There is an eco safeguard on weapons to prevent them from being too eco. [...] I'm sure the imk2 got grandfathered but amps don't improve the eco just reduces it less.

Click to expand...

Once Upon a Time on the Planet Far Far Away there was this guy called Post who decided to jump the gun and created a craftable sword with 3.00 DPP. He said u have to let it go or otherwise I will ragequit and just let my Planet die!

As a result the economy on NI was booming for a while, many swords were crafted and it was a really gravy train for the crafters who managed to get on the bandwagon.
MA realized what had happened and behold, it wasn't good! So they shut down the key ingredients for the Archon BP and most likely implemented this global eco safeguard as well.

Well, I don't know for sure ofc but it would make sense, right?

I remember Kim once said these uber toys (modmerc, imk2, modfap) were a mistake in the 1st place. I don't think he was expressing just his personal opinion there... Ofc MA can't take em back or quietly nerf em down, just like that. Ppl have invested a lot in those toys. Obviously MA is out of options there. They had to grandfather this status quo even if they don't like it at all...

Now, to have a few super eco weapons is one thing. Half the playerbase running around with 3 DPP gear - that would take it to another level entirely.
I mean, this is a zero-sum game afterall. Increased eco on a massive scale would end up with increasing the average eco requirement. If this happens it effectively nerfs all those ancient grandfathered uber toys on one hand (and seriously undermining the trust in MA as a result). On the other hand it would push the lower end of the eco ladder below any acceptable return ratio.

In short, the results would be catastrophic...


I didn't quite understand the part with "the amps don't improve the eco" thou? Could u elaborate that one, please?
Same for that one:

atomicstorm said:

This leads me to believe that dpp is not as meaningful as we really thought.

Click to expand...

If I understand u correctly, u saying the eco mechanism doesn't work exactly as we have believed it works?
Do u mean the entire formula is incorrect (like, missing a variable or sth)? Or maybe u referring to a specific situation, like calculating eco when using unmaxed weapon?

Amps donot increase eco of guns like imk2. It's one of the only guns that operate that way. Amps absorb decay to usually improve eco. Damage enhancers increase eco on imk2, excluding markup. Same situation.

For all other items, this is inversely true.

girtsn said:

no combination of items should be disallowed because it is "too eco"...
unless it is very clearly described in the item description as from the release of the item
P.S.
"I'm sure the imk2 got grandfathered but amps don't improve the eco just reduces it less."
Disagree, this is not a matter of speculation just an easy calculation, dpp is easy - equip h204, shoot with imk2 + amp, measure dpp on both

Click to expand...

No amp is more eco then Imk2! there's no BUT. in fact you can reach more eco in imk2 adding damage enhancers then attach any laser amp.

this makes me just sad again!

mindark's solutions to their problems seem to leave a bitter taste too often in my opinion, and very likely not only in mine

can't they just think about consequences of adding items and functionality before actually adding them? and how can they approve PPs adding such items? why don't they get removed at all? rather damage the game by adding functionality (eco safeguard) noone would need if the new items were thought through properly?

and even worse: "The support cases were constantly closed"

this is one reason why some people may think that MA doesn't care about the players at all. they don't even seem to understand that people may become a little bit upset after investing a shitload of their own cash for bugged, nerfed or mindarked items.

i wish they would start wondering about the reasons why people are upset so often, or why EU has lost like over 95% of its registered avatars already...

but i know, i'm just a bitchin drama queen, it has nothing to do that i would maybe love to see EU become really successful again some day

good luck with your item issues, though i fear there won't be any other solution from MA's side

Yea I understand that imk2 eco is reduced by adding an amp. Actually wanted to refer to this sentence "This leads me to believe that dpp is not as meaningful as we really thought." According to me, the fact that MA makes some amps not go on some items should mean dpp is even more important as we thought...

eSoul said:

No amp is more eco then Imk2! there's no BUT. in fact you can reach more eco in imk2 adding damage enhancers then attach any laser amp.

Click to expand...

girtsn said:

Yea I understand that imk2 eco is reduced by adding an amp. Actually wanted to refer to this sentence "This leads me to believe that dpp is not as meaningful as we really thought." According to me, the fact that MA makes some amps not go on some items should mean dpp is even more important as we thought...

Click to expand...

Not just important, it makes 'Eco' THE most important thing in PE!


Rgds

Ace

EDIT: MA have already said, Eco matters, some people just think its a myth for some bizarre reason. At least this gives credence to their statement!

theProphet said:

this makes me just sad again!

mindark's solutions to their problems seem to leave a bitter taste too often in my opinion, and very likely not only in mine

can't they just think about consequences of adding items and functionality before actually adding them? and how can they approve PPs adding such items? why don't they get removed at all? rather damage the game by adding functionality (eco safeguard) noone would need if the new items were thought through properly?

and even worse: "The support cases were constantly closed"

this is one reason why some people may think that MA doesn't care about the players at all. they don't even seem to understand that people may become a little bit upset after investing a shitload of their own cash for bugged, nerfed or mindarked items.

i wish they would start wondering about the reasons why people are upset so often, or why EU has lost like over 95% of its registered avatars already...

but i know, i'm just a bitchin drama queen, it has nothing to do that i would maybe love to see EU become really successful again some day

good luck with your item issues, though i fear there won't be any other solution from MA's side

Click to expand...

95%? Citation needed here. That's a very damaging statistic to throw out there with no indication that is true.

girtsn said:

Yea I understand that imk2 eco is reduced by adding an amp. Actually wanted to refer to this sentence "This leads me to believe that dpp is not as meaningful as we really thought." According to me, the fact that MA makes some amps not go on some items should mean dpp is even more important as we thought...

Click to expand...

Only if we can say that imk2 is grandfathered. If it isnt, then dpp matters little because improved mako fal and mod 8 is 3.205. My guess is that with Mod 8 or eco enhancers, the sword might delay little to none at all except for the ammo substitute. That's all I can think of

Not more important than everyone thought, maybe its time MA make imk2 the most expensive gun to tier, oh wait they already made the imk2 the most expensive weapon in their eyes.

girtsn said:

the fact that MA makes some amps not go on some items should mean dpp is even more important as we thought...

Click to expand...

But i already know u believe in eco, otherwise you would not use mod merc.

ofc i'm not part of that "we" was just reusing the original statement, damn i suck with wording

Xpl0jd said:

Not more important than everyone thought, maybe its time MA make imk2 the most expensive gun to tier, oh wait they already made the imk2 the most expensive weapon in their eyes.
But i already know u believe in eco, otherwise you would not use mod merc.

Click to expand...

Xpl0jd said:

Not more important than everyone thought, maybe its time MA make imk2 the most expensive gun to tier, oh wait they already made the imk2 the most expensive weapon in their eyes.



But i already know u believe in eco, otherwise you would not use mod merc.

Click to expand...

Improved mako fal is just as expensive btw. It's why I haven't tiered it to 4 yet.

What is a mod 8?

Somehow I am reminded of MA's 1x0 Axe "bug fix"

Mac said:

Somehow I am reminded of MA's 1x0 Axe "bug fix"

Click to expand...

You should. That's why the safeguard exists (or it was a ram.. whatever the 9dpp item was)

Venture Bros said:

What is a mod 8?

Click to expand...

melee amp
http://www.entropiawiki.com/Info.aspx?chart=Attachment&name=Modified_Melee_Trauma_Amplifier_VIII

That is a stupid nickname for that item.
Thanks jetman

5$ said there will be , so I came.
Nice read along with my lager.

atomicstorm said:

First, I want to say that I don't blame Arkadia. I blame mindark for not letting players know this exists and preventing them from falling into a trap. They are not going to change items and I respect that. What I don't respect is that accommodations were not made when they did that with Mod merc.

As you know, the improved manta and improved mako fal do not take eco enhancers nor will it take any amp that improves the eco of the sword. In this case, the improved mako fal takes the mod 8 amp but when you equip it, it says: cannot execute, please try again later. To the hunter, this just seems like a bug or a temporary situation. However, it is not.

There is an eco safeguard on weapons to prevent them from being too eco. This leads me to believe that dpp is not as meaningful as we really thought. I'm sure the imk2 got grandfathered but amps don't improve the eco just reduces it less. We also know swords behave differently than guns because there is no ammo.

This does not just impact these two swords, this same behavior applies to some toulan guns that cannot be used right now or perhaps ever. I feel as if I have been misled when buying the mod 8 amp. It was a gamble knowing that it was a problem but one would think they would produce an error that would prevent unnecessary purchases.

So.. be warned. It took 6 months of pleading and about your support cases to get this response. Only arkadia would listen and I thank them for that. The support cases were constantly closed telling me about next island swords and were irrelevant.

I got confirmation from mindark today that nothing will be done. My recommendation was to either swap the amp or allow for the eco overage to be applied to skills. But in the end, they said.. tough cookies.

Click to expand...

Interesting thanks for sharing info

I waited to state the eco safeguard info in pcf hoping they would make an announcement in the game but they didnt. So I chose to lay it out there. People should know.

atomicstorm said:

So.. be warned. It took 6 months of pleading and about your support cases to get this response. Only arkadia would listen and I thank them for that. The support cases were constantly closed telling me about next island swords and were irrelevant.

I got confirmation from mindark today that nothing will be done. My recommendation was to either swap the amp or allow for the eco overage to be applied to skills. But in the end, they said.. tough cookies.

Click to expand...

Please post the support case information relevant to this statement.

Which statements.. there are multiple in the quote.

I did several tests and found a eco cap set at 3.199 a long time ago
Anything that will enhance any weapon not made by Caly, will not allow that weapon be equipped.
Weapons like yours ( specially melee) that can reach that Max eco unenhanced would allow you to maintain TT profits and that goes into MAs pocket.