Developer Notes #14 - Loot 2.0 Update

Aio said:

It's just regular "creative" language.

What we all think would be a mathematical shift (e.g. with 2.5 dpp you get 75% shrap 25% oil, with 3.0 dpp you get 50% shrap 50% oil) is actually just terminology. Linzey wrote on some thread, better to think of it as higher dpp = more loot events = more chances of MU items.

While Eff difference between 0 and 100 = 7%, so difference in 90% eff and 70% eff = 20%, = 0.2*7, = 1.4% tt return difference.

Essentially they're not lying because there are two mechanisms, but they aren't be totally honest as Eff and DPP are directly linked.

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Eff and dpp are only directly linked so far. They could have just done this to try to preserve relative market values of existing weapons. It may be a directly linked formula and it will be that way forever, but there is nothing stopping them from making a weapon with lower dpp and high efficiency, for example.

Xen said:

Eff and dpp are only directly linked so far. They could have just done this to try to preserve relative market values of existing weapons. It may be a directly linked formula and it will be that way forever, but there is nothing stopping them from making a weapon with lower dpp and high efficiency, for example.

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I think this is what is coming.. you get choice of play style.. higher dpp, or higher efficiency (at least at lower levels) .. allowing folks to play for rarer loots, or more kills per hour or what not... i think this gives them avenues to allow for different ways to (hunt) the game

The efficiency stat on items are not directly tied to it's DPP. All existing items had their efficiency set based on their current DPP in order to keep their relative "economy" compared to each other in place. The IMK2 was by far the most economic/high DPP weapon in the game and therefore now has the highest efficiency, the Swine Deluxe was among the least economic/lowest DPP weapons and therefore now has among the lowest efficiency.

The efficiency does not have to be proportional to the DPP of the item but currently they usually are. There are however a couple of exceptions to this such as scopes which have a DPP of 0 (as they do no damage) but still have a fairly high efficiency stat.

There also seems to still be a lot of confusion in regards to what "Efficiency" does. Efficiency has a direct effect on the overall TT return, it does not directly affect loot composition.

In regards to Team loot and Shared loot distribution it hasn't really changed and works the same way as before. However, with the new loot system it is now possible to make a new team loot rule that splits loot based on everyone's costs instead of their damage, creating a much more fair loot setting for teams.

charlie thanks for update.. how about more importantly.. when will you be fixing the lag issues across servers?

Charlie|MindArk said:

The efficiency stat on items are not directly tied to it's DPP. All existing items had their efficiency set based on their current DPP in order to keep their relative "economy" compared to each other in place. The IMK2 was by far the most economic/high DPP weapon in the game and therefore now has the highest efficiency, the Swine Deluxe was among the least economic/lowest DPP weapons and therefore now has among the lowest efficiency.

The efficiency does not have to be proportional to the DPP of the item but currently they usually are. There are however a couple of exceptions to this such as scopes which have a DPP of 0 (as they do no damage) but still have a fairly high efficiency stat.

There also seems to still be a lot of confusion in regards to what "Efficiency" does. Efficiency has a direct effect on the overall TT return, it does not directly affect loot composition.

In regards to Team loot and Shared loot distribution it hasn't really changed and works the same way as before. However, with the new loot system it is now possible to make a new team loot rule that splits loot based on everyone's costs instead of their damage, creating a much more fair loot setting for teams.

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Hi Charlie. Is there any development plans to change shared loot mobs to split by cost instead of damage?

Also, in terms of loot composition mechanic. Is it absolute DPP (cheaper to kill a mob, the better the loot comp)? Or is it relative to the DPP potential of the weapon setup? Basically, does DPP matter for loot composition if we remove crit items?

Finally, is it possible to know how the efficiency parameter scales with loot return? Is it a linear function? Is the 7% range stated before from 0to 100% efficiency?

Jhereg said:

Hi Charlie. Is there any development plans to change shared loot mobs to split by cost instead of damage?

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HAHAHAHAAHAHAAH. Joke of the day!

Charlie|MindArk said:

In regards to Team loot and Shared loot distribution it hasn't really changed and works the same way as before. However, with the new loot system it is now possible to make a new team loot rule that splits loot based on everyone's costs instead of their damage, creating a much more fair loot setting for teams.

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Thanks for acknowledging this issue, which I honestly think is a very pressing one.

Hopefully you guys come out with setting like this soon, and apply it to all Shared Loot mobs so that those events and areas can be more fair and inviting to the players who choose to participate, instead of just making people feel like they're just being abused for free PED by players with higher dpp setups.

Darkaruki said:

Thanks for acknowledging this issue, which I honestly think is a very pressing one.

Hopefully you guys come out with setting like this soon, and apply it to all Shared Loot mobs so that those events and areas can be more fair and inviting to the players who choose to participate, instead of just making people feel like they're just being abused for free PED by players with higher dpp setups.

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yeah charlie, make all gear equal so we can sweat and loot esi with junk tools.fuck investment we want free money.

messi91 said:

yeah charlie, make all gear equal so we can sweat and loot esi with junk tools.fuck investment we want free money.

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That's obviously not at all what I'm discussing at the moment, what is being discussed is the fairness of loot distribution by damage in team and shared loot settings under loot 2.0.

All gear is not equal, in and out of shared loot, and I have no idea what you're getting at with this post, having stronger gear allows you to hunt larger mobs, and more mobs within the same period of time which can grant opportunities to loot items which are desired and not available on smaller mobs, having more efficient gear allows you to directly increase your average return rates, and increasing your dpp allows you to have a higher share of your loot be given to you in non-shrapnel items, and allows you to gain more skills and kill more mobs at the same cost.

Why are you angry that they're finally addressing shared loot being very unfair on loot 2.0? How is this a bad thing?

Darkaruki said:

That's obviously not at all what I'm discussing at the moment, what is being discussed is the fairness of loot distribution by damage in team and shared loot settings under loot 2.0.

All gear is not equal, in and out of shared loot, and I have no idea what you're getting at with this post, having stronger gear allows you to hunt larger mobs, and more mobs within the same period of time which can grant opportunities to loot items which are desired and not available on smaller mobs, having more efficient gear allows you to directly increase your average return rates, and increasing your dpp allows you to have a higher share of your loot be given to you in non-shrapnel items, and allows you to gain more skills and kill more mobs at the same cost.

Why are you angry that they're finally addressing shared loot being very unfair on loot 2.0? How is this a bad thing?

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So you want eco to matter when hunting solo but there be no advantage to being eco in a shared loot setting. Better/eco gear should always be an advantage, really this just seems like whining.

Xen said:

So you want eco to matter when hunting solo but there be no advantage to being eco in a shared loot setting. Better/eco gear should always be an advantage, really this just seems like whining.

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If they change the loot rules to work correctly in team hunting and shared loot scenarios it would matter in the same way and to the same degree in both...

This isn't just whining, it's a broken system and alienates players away from team hunting or participating in shared loot and creates and opportunity for players with high dpp setups to directly damage other players' experience.

Right now the advantage to having higher efficiency is a 7% difference from being lowest possible and highest possible, and dpp (crit, attachments, etc) is not meant to have an influence on this, however, in shared loot everything is thrown out the window, dpp is all that matters, because it's stuck in loot 1.0, and the advantage to having significantly higher dpp than others in your team or at your shared loot mob can mean as much as 200% return rate in extreme cases, maybe even more, but probably on average 110-130% return rate, guess who's pocket that's coming out of

Xen said:

So you want eco to matter when hunting solo but there be no advantage to being eco in a shared loot setting. Better/eco gear should always be an advantage, really this just seems like whining.

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No. He is saying that the shared loot system should not operate in a drastically different manner than the the way the loot system is intended to in 2.0. And right now it does.

The current shared loot system is an artifact leftover from pre-2.0. I suspect MA will correct this fairly quickly. For now, watch out for those high dpp ubers "taking" some of your loot

Darkaruki said:

If they change the loot rules to work correctly in team hunting and shared loot scenarios it would matter in the same way and to the same degree in both...

This isn't just whining, it's a broken system and alienates players away from team hunting or participating in shared loot and creates and opportunity for players with high dpp setups to directly damage other players' experience.

Right now the advantage to having higher efficiency is a 7% difference from being lowest possible and highest possible, and dpp (crit, attachments, etc) is not meant to have an influence on this, however, in shared loot everything is thrown out the window, dpp is all that matters, because it's stuck in loot 1.0, and the advantage to having significantly higher dpp than others in your team or at your shared loot mob can mean as much as 200% return rate in extreme cases, maybe even more, but probably on average 110-130% return rate, guess who's pocket that's coming out of

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So to make the most fair out of it, loot should be split based on cost to kill, but high DPP-players should have a much higher chance to loot items from shared mobs and low DPP players should be left with the sharpnel only more or less, and not like now where you get a chance based on your % damage done?

Since after all, high DPP players increase the chance of mob looting other stuff than sharpnel.

Jhereg said:

No. He is saying that the shared loot system should not operate in a drastically different manner than the the way the loot system is intended to in 2.0. And right now it does.

The current shared loot system is an artifact leftover from pre-2.0. I suspect MA will correct this fairly quickly. For now, watch out for those high dpp ubers "taking" some of your loot

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Do we know for a fact that the shared loot mobs split loot as they did before loot 2.0?

I do understand that if loot is split based on percentage of damage dealt to the mob, then high dpp gets a disproportionate share.

rtos00 said:

Do we know for a fact that the shared loot mobs split loot as they did before loot 2.0?

I do understand that if loot is split based on percentage of damage dealt to the mob, then high dpp gets a disproportionate share.

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Yes, we know this, the loot is split based on damage dealt.

Thanks for the update seems I read the communication on efficiency vs dpp correctly after-all then.
One consequence for entropedia is that efficiency should be noted as an input field rather than calculation (but could be pre-filled for existing items).
Imho the assignment of efficiency was unfair in these aspects

1. imk2 was the best dpp weapon before the introduction and still is - which is already a huge advantage for loot composition (as shown by vodka in the last hogglo shared loot event), there was no reason to make it scale fully linear also for efficiency. A 90.5% gives a 20% difference e.g on modmerc or 1.4% difference for tt return - which is huge for grinders, on 200k turnover per month this is 2800 peds. It also gets in way of introducing better weapons as basically there most likely won't be a better one than best dpp and 90%. Basically you missed a chance to balance one of the early mistakes of the game and indeed open path for better weapons as claimed in your opening statement.

2. you forgot about items (in this case weapons + amps) with embedded crit buffs in the efficiency scale, funny and sad as you just introduced some of them this year as best event prizes. before the change, items with crit buffs improved dpp making them effectively same as higher dpp guns with already the disadvantage to apply all crit buff rings. while normal weapons and amps got an efficiency increase for all their dpp, these were nerfed severely. So the statement in bold is not true.

3. not to forget the standalone crit buffs - there was no reason to not keep a positive impact on tt by including them in efficiency calculation e.g. small% increase when equipped as opposed to completely eliminating it. compared to imk2 treatment and the recent prices of crit buffs due to actively marketing them, it gives the idea that old time buyers of imk2 are way more important than recent buyers which is absurd at best.

Charlie|MindArk said:

The efficiency stat on items are not directly tied to it's DPP. All existing items had their efficiency set based on their current DPP in order to keep their relative "economy" compared to each other in place. The IMK2 was by far the most economic/high DPP weapon in the game and therefore now has the highest efficiency, the Swine Deluxe was among the least economic/lowest DPP weapons and therefore now has among the lowest efficiency.

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Imo crit buffs should be reworked to add effeciency. This would be fair on those who paid lots for rings and attachments. Also potentially should look at having a different marker for loot composition. As it is, you need one weapon to be the best in both areas (and don't kid yourselves that MA will introduce a higher dpp or a higher efficiency weapon than imk2, even in just one stat).

However, I can see halloween 2017, Xmas 2017 and Easter 2018 rings adding effeciency buffs, so that all those players have to buy new bits to compete (only for it to change in 3 years).

At least use some lube when you bend people over MA.

Charlie|MindArk said:

In regards to Team loot and Shared loot distribution it hasn't really changed and works the same way as before.

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girtsn said:

1. imk2 was the best dpp weapon before the introduction and still is - which is already a huge advantage for loot composition (as shown by vodka in the last hogglo shared loot event)

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Vodkas video show nothing of what you are stating, since shared-loot works the same as 1.0, as Charlie stated in his post.

Items in shared-loot is distributed by % damage done.
If anything, vodkas DPP added more ESI to loot due to his high DPP.

I know a minimum of 5 people looting 100tt+ of ESI in this event (some even more than one), even with kinda crappy/mediocre DPP. (Even heard rumors about 1 mediocre DPP player looted 2 full TT ESI during the very same event. (Can not confirm this since it was the persons soc mate saying this)

You yourself looted a rare hogglo diablo pet as well.

Holy Smokes I have never seen the likes. 20 pages of blah, blah, blah and blah, blah, blah. All of this just to have a chance of what, only a 3% percent loss ? How long would you play if every time you went on a run you would cash exactly 97% ? I think that is what MA is saying, with exactly the right everything you can achieve 97% return over all. The other part is I may get lucky and get an HOF-ATH, however it has not been said that one of those will not then reduce you normal loot enough to return you to the 97% return.

So the question is "Do you feel lucky, well do ya punk ?" .

You end up with almost a 7% differential in return. Basically, really don't do shared loot mobs right now..

This effect is far worse, both players have the same efficiency. I think its at least 8% differential between the two players.

Jhereg said:

You end up with almost a 7% differential in return. Basically, really don't do shared loot mobs right now..

This effect is far worse, both players have the same efficiency. I think its at least 8% differential between the two players.

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Very, very few people have 3.25 dpp, and the effect is much less in a large group.

Xen said:

Very, very few people have 3.25 dpp, and the effect is much less in a large group.

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Probably not unreasonable with a high dpp weapon like IMK2. And most players can use pills/est/crit buffs to get at least halfway there..

My calculations are not meant to be exact, but to demonstrate what is currently the problem with the shared loot mobs.

At 3.1 DPP vs 3.0 DPP, the differential would be closer to 3.2%. But it will exist.

At 7% differential, if the higher dpp can cycle ~1k an hour, they can siphon on average ~35 peds from other player(s) per hour.

Jhereg said:

Probably not unreasonable with a high dpp weapon like IMK2. And most players can use pills/est/crit buffs to get at least halfway there..

My calculations are not meant to be exact, but to demonstrate what is currently the problem with the shared loot mobs.

At 3.1 DPP vs 3.0 DPP, the differential would be closer to 3.2%. But it will exist.

At 7% differential, if the higher dpp can cycle ~1k an hour, they can siphon on average ~35 peds from other player(s) per hour.

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i dont know why you count it like in loot 2.0 when even MA stated that shared mobs work as in 1.0 ...

Me Really Never said:

i dont know why you count it like in loot 2.0 when even MA stated that shared mobs work as in 1.0 ...

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Because they do work the same way as they did in 1.0, that precisely is the issue, loot is shared by damage dealt as opposed to cost incurred.

Damage dealt loot share made sense in 1.0, it does not make sense in 2.0 because loot is now determined by cost incurred, not mob health.

Darkaruki said:

Because they do work the same way as they did in 1.0, that precisely is the issue, loot is shared by damage dealt as opposed to cost incurred.

Damage dealt loot share made sense in 1.0, it does not make sense in 2.0 because loot is now determined by cost incurred, not mob health.

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they say it works exactly like it did in 1.0. so that makes you think that the loot is determined like it is in 2.0? what if EVERYTHING is exactly as in 1.0? because thats basically what they say, dont they?

and to be honest... shared loot mobs always were insanely stupid to hunt... that didnt change at all

Jhereg said:

Probably not unreasonable with a high dpp weapon like IMK2. And most players can use pills/est/crit buffs to get at least halfway there..

My calculations are not meant to be exact, but to demonstrate what is currently the problem with the shared loot mobs.

At 3.1 DPP vs 3.0 DPP, the differential would be closer to 3.2%. But it will exist.

At 7% differential, if the higher dpp can cycle ~1k an hour, they can siphon on average ~35 peds from other player(s) per hour.

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Yes, but with 2 people shooting. With many people shooting there is much less difference. The higher dpp will get a little more, but shouldn't they? It cost a lot of money for that stuff.

Jhereg said:

Probably not unreasonable with a high dpp weapon like IMK2. And most players can use pills/est/crit buffs to get at least halfway there..

My calculations are not meant to be exact, but to demonstrate what is currently the problem with the shared loot mobs.

At 3.1 DPP vs 3.0 DPP, the differential would be closer to 3.2%. But it will exist.

At 7% differential, if the higher dpp can cycle ~1k an hour, they can siphon on average ~35 peds from other player(s) per hour.

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This is perfectly fine. There should be a difference when someone put a lot down to increase their DPP.

minim said:

This is perfectly fine. There should be a difference when someone put a lot down to increase their DPP.

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And there is one, which is a completely unrelated matter.

What we are talking about is the unfairness of sharing loot based on damage, in both Shared Loot mobs and Team Hunting scenarios.

We have a broken system where loot is based on cost input and given out based on damage dealt, resulting in massive imbalances in the fairness of loot distribution between players.

One that exists only because sharing loot based on damage dealt is a model that made sense, was fair, and worked in loot 1.0 but is a model that does not make sense, is unfair, and does not work with loot 2.0.

You're defending a relic of loot 1.0 that actively damages other players' ability to team hunt with their friends, and has a significant negative impact on the fairness on loot distribution in Shared Loot scenarios.

This is not an intended mechanic, and MindArk acknowledge this previously in the thread, so I really do not understand how or why there are still people trying to defend it.

Are all of you sitting at Shared Loot right now with imk2, easter eggs, crit scope, crit sight, easter ring, etc happily leeching PED off of noobs? (DIRECTLY ruining their experience playing the game)

Maybe inviting your "friend" to come hunt some mobs with you?

Are you angry that attention is being brought to this?

Stop defending it already.

I believe at least part of the conflict stems from the fact that it is not unanimous what "fairness" means. It means different things to different people. Some believe it is fair if they were rewarded for having paid copious amounts of money to another player when they bought some rare and highly efficient tool from them. Others believe it is fair if they were rewarded for paying more to MindArk than others did.