FYI: MaxLoot formula

[Konve]

I am working from the thesis that the largest possible loot you can get is the function of a multiplier times the input value. I assume it works for hunting, mining and crafting alike - but I have zero proof for the first two. I'll use crafting to demonstrate.

I have no illusions that I am the first one to point this out, but since I see no thread like this around I'll go ahead and post it anyway.

Please give credit to http://www.entropialife.com - which is where I'll draw numbers from.


How do you guess the largest loot possible? Well you simply need a huge amount of data, to see who hit the largest loot for the smallest amount of input materials. If multiple people have hit the cap - that should stand out (a single uniquely large ATH is special, many of the same size is fishy).

In other words we need the largest loot multiplier; (Loot TT)/(Input TT) = (Loot multiplier), which you want to observe many times. Where "input TT" is the TT of your crafting materials, in this case. Now let's start looking:

(ATH is the largest loot ever recorded on entropialife, ATHs indicate there are more than one of the same value.)

Item - Input TT
Value - Multiplier

Basic Filters - 0.05 PED
ATHs (2): 495 PED - 9900

Standard Damper - 0.07 PED
ATHs (3): 688 PED - 9829

Generic Leather Texture - 0.07 PED
ATH: 690 PED - 9857


Why, I'd say 9900 is a fine candidate. Never have I seen a loot with a larger multiplier than that.

So now we can really start to speculate. Assuming that loot is a function of your Input TT, CoS (quntity VS quality) and this multiplier, we get the following:

(Input TT)*MaxMultiplier = MaxLoot

Then follows that MaxMultiplier = x/CoS

What is x? I'm glad you asked. x is the famous dice. x determines how large a loot you get.

If your CoS while condition crafting is 5 % - then x = 9900*0.05 = 495.


Or, in other words, the MaxLoot function looks like this:

(Input TT)*495/CoS = MaxLoot

Example, Basic Filters, 5 % CoS condition crafting:
0.05 PED*495/0.05 = 495 PED


Food for thought:
No1. Crafting ATH atm. is 229 693 PED on Elkarr Scope. Input TT = 32.60 PED. Multiplier = 7046 (assuming full condition).
At a multiplier of 9900 that would have been 322 740 PED.

I Am My Avatar Trucker Cap (C) Blueprint has an input TT of 208 PED. MaxLoot would be 2 059 200 PED.
(Highest of all ul BPs.)

Chikara Mizuchi (L) Blueprint (L) has an input TT of 320.17 PED. MaxLoot would be 3 169 683 PED.
(Highest of all BPs.)

The popular Level 2 Finder Amplifier (L) Blueprint has an input TT of 8.37 PED. MaxLoot would be 82 863 PED.
The highest, recorded loot someone has found on this BP is 77 654 PED, equal to a multipler of 9278 (assuming full condition).




What's the margin of error here? I dunno, probably big but hopefully not huge. Please note that a lot of things, such as the CoS on condition crafting, are estimated guesses and have not been tested.

Should work for hunting and stuff also, but mob's regen and shit like that will mess up any example. But keep in mind that CoS changes. Perhaps even x, though I'd eat my hat if the formula doesn't look quite similar still.

Why did I write this? I dunno, was bored while crafting I guess.

 

[shoti]

I personally assume multiplier idea as one of most reeasonable, and easy to implement along with probablity to keem MA at safe side vs. ATH's. However i saw higher multipliers than you mentioned.

At least in mining there are 12000 multipliers ( or colose to that ). I had once unamped enmater tower 6446 ped wchich is ca. 12000x cost of probe + decay of finder.

 

[FallenAngel]

I personally assume multiplier idea as one of most reeasonable, and easy to implement along with probablity to keem MA at safe side vs. ATH's. However i saw higher multipliers than you mentioned.

At least in mining there are 12000 multipliers ( or colose to that ). I had once unamped enmater tower 6446 ped wchich is ca. 12000x cost of probe + decay of finder.

some noob got a 10500x multiplier hunting but that was a long time ago in 2007, there was a bit of regeneration involved though. it was on a 200HP mob

 

[Sissi]

If i remember correctly JH stated that he got the ATH while on full condition, but was probably not maxed.

Isn't the crafting CLD the highest in value? Tho might be just MU wise. Any1 wanna do a run on full condition and lets be modest 50 or so clicks will do.

ps. East Scylla server seems down..

 

[Boardian Chilix]

i vote for
some are capped
In mining range has an effect
https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/showthread.php?215072-ATH-Niksarium&highlight=
42 641 / 3 = 14213 vs the usuall 12000 (f-103 used), and if you look in foma they jump to over 71000, the lower the range the bigger
crafting a mix of cos+position bar but i dont think i ever seen higher than 10k at least not directly but inderectly through L bps of over 20k
so to try to work a formula is almost impossible task

 

[Xing Nu]

is funny to see how ppl make thinks complicated when is basicly prety simple output is calculated from the amount of input at that given time. That for normal globals hofs.

ath is simply one variable that stocks peds for as long as is not full once full it generate number and drop it, that why most ath are close in numbers i belive the rest that you see like 200K + is program that buged.

you know all programs work that way and i don't see why eu will be differant ?

 

[Konve]

is funny to see how ppl make thinks complicated when is basicly prety simple output is calculated from the amount of input at that given time. That for normal globals hofs.

ath is simply one variable that stocks peds for as long as is not full once full it generate number and drop it, that why most ath are close in numbers i belive the rest that you see like 200K + is program that buged.

you know all programs work that way and i don't see why eu will be differant ?

You're defining an accumulative jackpot. Entropia is not a game. So how could there be a jackpot?

 

[shoti]

is funny to see how ppl make thinks complicated when is basicly prety simple output is calculated from the amount of input at that given time. That for normal globals hofs.

ath is simply one variable that stocks peds for as long as is not full once full it generate number and drop it, that why most ath are close in numbers i belive the rest that you see like 200K + is program that buged.

you know all programs work that way and i don't see why eu will be differant ?

...and moreover MA admited there is no pool.

 

[silentkill234]

...and moreover MA admited there is no pool.

LOL, Please give me some proof. Last time I checked in the rocktropia VU update notes they *adjusted* loot pools, which does mean they are real.

ProofOrNothin.

 

[getget]

...and moreover MA admited there is no pool.

Not exactly that statement... They admit that there are NO PERSONNAL loot pool.
That is different than having mob loot pool and/or server pool ...


Konve,

What would be the result for the XR70(L) which have a 13,25ped TT input ?
BP maxed and craft it on quantity

 

[Konve]

LOL, Please give me some proof. Last time I checked in the rocktropia VU update notes they *adjusted* loot pools, which does mean they are real.

ProofOrNothin.

What is said and what is real does not have to be the same. I don't trust for a second that there are loot pools, unless some technical genius head-programmer at MA comes forth to explain how it works.

Some kind or community liaison telling us that "the loot pool has been adjusted" could mean anything, or nothing. I see no proof there.

Not exactly that statement... They admit that there are NO PERSONNAL loot pool.
That is different than having mob loot pool and/or server pool ...


Konve,

What would be the result for the XR70(L) which have a 13,25ped TT input ?
BP maxed and craft it on quantity

(Input TT)*495/CoS = MaxLoot

13.25*495/0.05 = 131 175 PED or thereabouts.

Edit: Sorry, quantity. What's the CoS there, 40 %? Would make for 16 396 PED.

 

[getget]

(Input TT)*495/CoS = MaxLoot
13.25*495/0.05 = 131 175 PED or thereabouts.
Edit: Sorry, quantity. What's the CoS there, 40 %? Would make for 16 396 PED.

I hit a 16 538 hof on quantity last saturday. It is very close to your calcs ...

 

[Xing Nu]

...and moreover MA admited there is no pool.

You must look at EU as what is it is program whith db.

Programs are stupid and most are easy to understend (the code part) if you did somme C++ and C#.

I doubt there is multyplier involved as it can bring in great risk (what hapens if the program bugs and read the multiplier wrong? can you imagine consencuances of 10 mill ath ? I can for MA.).

When you write program you always start to ask you self what i want it to do and then how i can acheve that in the most simple way (more complycated you go more bad it can get).

I guaranty you those are fackts in every game and EU included.

The way i think is done is there is loot pool for every item or mob (that is easely proven when you see that the mob that give most hofs per day are the usualy the one most hunted) another point that prove that is that the mob that will give the hof spawns in the place most hunters are (example of this is the big industry events, there are Rexuleums or what ever is that mob called on another island tax free but the hofs drop from that land why ? becose that where the most mobs are kiled and where they spawn, same go for Levithans ath's drop in the same hunting area, what this tell you ? is not random ! if it was random then that ath could spawn at port atlantis spawn and stay there for ages before someone drive byu and kill it).

To make thinks simple we bunch of players shoot at one spec of mob once x numbers of mobs are killed calculated on avrage cost to kill one spawn whith global and another one and another one, once certain amount is reached hof spawn and another ect. why we hunt small part is holded in value that stock it untill told to drop that is ath.

That why MA told you that minning and crafting and hunting loot pool (if you want to call them that ) are not conected and is true when you drop probe that don't go in hunting it goes in minning.

What you can learn from this ?

Hunt Levi alot, hunt those primodial longu once full 10 days been hunting on them, hunt Feffoids time to time becose alot of those are killed for the quests, kill atrox alot cos they are probably the mob that is hunted the most in all the EU, always hunt the last two and the firs two days of the month, craft items that drop the most hof's (probably the amp 2) and try not to do any minning or rly do it for fun but formost when you hit big one be happy and think that it may never happen again so cherish that time.

PS. when you see someone hof alot like smigs, stryker or else don't think they are lucky think that they probably are killing gazilion mobs every day so mathematecly more you kill more you incrase you chance to get it is like if you buy 80% of all lotery tickets you chance to win are higher.

 

[mastermesh]

You're defining an accumulative jackpot. Entropia is not a game. So how could there be a jackpot?

yep... seems like it's accumulative jackpot + multipliers... so like some certain amount goes in to the pool, probably based on either decay or misses or something... maybe it adds misses in to one pool and other decay in to another ?... either way it adds it... then multiplier game starts based on random numbers... whoever hits it at the right time wins and winnings get divided by whoever hit at the right time... which is why we see global waves taking so long to calculate... what's funny/ironic is that since it takes so long for global wave to calulate...by the time people see it in the chat they suddenly thing - hmm. that's a lucky mob/area... let me go there to hunt/mine, etc... but by the time they read it in chat the wave is long gone since it's really only a microsecond long.... if talking about sweating... it's similar to how circle at Neas is still going after mob is dry because not everyone in circle has the message that there is no more sweat in that mob yet... it's all lag and randomness... good ol databases at work...

unlike real casinos though, there's no restrooms or beverage dispensers, so you can't go by the real world casino theory that the slots nearest those locations are looser so as to pull those getting ready to leave back in.

 

[Rvalldrgg]

With the level 4 ATH today, the multiplier using (Loot TT)/(Input TT) = (Loot multiplier) would be:
(unlimited bp): 169167/27.85 = 6074
(limited bp): 169167/27.27 = 6203

So even though 169,167 is an awesome All Time High, it seems the top ATH with the level 4 amplifier with a multiplier of 9000 (or so) would be 245,430 to 250,650.

The Maxloot formula is probably about correct with the 9000 top/max multiplier.

 

[M Rufen Power]

Interesting thread here for crafting. Is this method transferable to mining and hunting? If so, how would that cross over and work like in crafting?? This seems similar to wat stefan 008 is working on for hunting loots ie max loots. Very interesting read + rep op.

 

[Profit]

I doubt there is multyplier involved as it can bring in great risk (what hapens if the program bugs and read the multiplier wrong?

This happened, remember the tower spam?
Or was that before your time?


I mean no offence when I say this, but; it's illogical to suggest there are no multipliers at play here.

 

[Namokiller]

I can remember time,when argo young drop 9k ~ every week, and the cost is 1 ped ~

 

[pesa]

max mining multiplier is definitely higher,I once got a 14k lyst without amp

 

[Konve]

max mining multiplier is definitely higher,I once got a 14k lyst without amp

Mind if I ask where you found it? And it was belk, wasn't it?

 

[Cerberus]

You must look at EU as what is it is program whith db.

Programs are stupid and most are easy to understend (the code part) if you did somme C++ and C#.

I doubt there is multyplier involved as it can bring in great risk (what hapens if the program bugs and read the multiplier wrong? can you imagine consencuances of 10 mill ath ? I can for MA.).

It's easier to implement a random number generator that runs a new sequence every time a loot transaction is sent, rather than having a table where total jackpot for each object is constantly bombarded with transactions for increases and decreases.

Yes it can malfunction due to an update, but so can your idea. Your idea is actually even more prone to malfunctioning, as it would just be a complete clusterf*** of updated data.

-- LAMP dev with experience in Java, C++ and R

 

[M Rufen Power]

I can remember time,when argo young drop 9k ~ every week, and the cost is 1 ped ~

Missed every single one of them, infact I missed 2-3 while I was grinding the iron quest .

 

[Sunsout Gunsout]

Do you think some BP's are inherently broken, then? Or that MA just has some sucker BP's out there where this doesnt apply?

Look at the differences between Gyrofap 2 and Ziplex z5 seeker. Gyro cost to click is 1.33, Zip is 2.98.

In my opinion, both have been clicked a lot. Why would Gyro top 5 HOF'S all be twice as high as the top 5 HOF's for ziplez z5?

What are your thoughts, people?
MU is same on both...
Is it just that way less z5's have been probably been clicked? ( the top 5 crafters of gyro have about 600 globals, compared to 160 for zip z5) (or maybe the z5 just won't global cuz of some other reason)

Is it just because the z5 hasn't been clicked enough?

 

[Cerberus]

In my opinion, both have been clicked a lot. Why would Gyro top 5 HOF'S all be twice as high as the top 5 HOF's for ziplez z5?

I'll just state what I know, and see if anyone can make sense of it:
* GFap2 is almost TT in terms in markup, z5 costs quite a lot
* Arkadia has had several events where no of crafting globals mattered, Caly has not
* Condition means higher chance to global
* Z5 is far more popular to click than GFap2 on a general basis

 

[forgo]

Look at the differences between Gyrofap 2 and Ziplex z5 seeker. Gyro cost to click is 1.33, Zip is 2.98.

In my opinion, both have been clicked a lot. Why would Gyro top 5 HOF'S all be twice as high as the top 5 HOF's for ziplez z5?

I think the answer lies in volume.
More people will click the lower cost gyro BP at bigger batches,
The volume goes up, (probably twice as many clicks made on gyros or much more).


Now lets say (approximate for example) there is a 5% chance to get a global:

5,000,000 clicks on gyros = 250,000 globals at 5%
2,000,000 clicks on z-15 = 100,000 globals at 5%

Probably a much larger margin since the global rate would be lower with a lower cost item (gyro, perhaps 2% chance to global in this example).


Here, Gyros have a higher chance to HOF on a universal basis, with each of those having more chance to get an ATH for that item, up to the max payout, as perhaps defined in this thread.


I think Gyros have higher numbers, mainly because it is the primary level 1 Arkadian tool BP, which has been extensively clicked since ark opened in hopes of new BP's and skills (new players there) and ark events and such.

Other more common Caly items for tools can be made vs z15 more eco, and there are more mining tool options that compete with the z-15 that are available to make on caly.

I would guess if we waited for z-15 to catch up to the number of clicks the gyros have, they will probably come out on top in PED MAX, as the clicks and odds get higher to hit that mark.

All just a guess at whats going on there, because it is a valid and good observation that you make.

 

[Profit]

Missed every single one of them, infact I missed 2-3 while I was grinding the iron quest .

Got me one, though I used an overamped, underpowered weapon and it took forever to kill the bugger... but it payed! lol
8.4k I think it was... a young.



re: the faps... iirc when arkadia launched people clicked these like crazy hoping for prints.
My observations suggest that higher crafting HoF's are more likely on prints with a higher volume of clicks. We make this same observation in hunting too.
So if 100k clicks on one fap and 20k clicks on another fap, you'd expect much more and likely higher HoF's from the 100k clicks (given the TT cost per click is relatively close). Especially since in this case, the gyro's were likely clicked on condition whereas more people would click quantity on the z's than they would on gyro's.
Ofcourse, there could always be an anomaly where the 20k clicks produce a massive multiplier, but that is less likely and the variance would reduce as you extended the clicks out further to say 10mil and 2mil respectively.
Did I make sense?
:shrug:

 

[Profit]

wtf happened to shrug emote?!
(or am I imagining it being here when really it was another forum? :shrug: )

 

[AkiranBlade]

I think the formula is missing an element... time

I believe if you space out your 'attempts' (be they kills, crafts or probes) you will not get anywhere near your MaxLoot potential.

Consider that time after time, people who have big dmg/sec and big armour can hit big HoFs with ease on bigger mobs, then someone who is hitting less and fapping more. I've observed this A LOT over the years.

Taking your crafting potential formula, it is possible that the CoS portion of the formula is retarded by time, or in more real terms, the value of the CoS is increased by time, therefore limiting it's less than 0 divisional potential, because we know that, the smaller the number less than 1 it is, the greater the resultant value.

So for (Input TT)*495/CoS = MaxLoot we now get:

(Input TT)*495/CoS*f = MaxLoot

Where f is the frequency or time period length between attempts (as a starter.)

If f is considered in terms of minutes, then the value would be less than 1 for things like crafting, near 1 for mining and often greater than one in hunting, depending on the beast size.

Now you'd have to tweak the f parameter in terms of how it works with real world examples, there may also be a constant value to aid different scenarios like hunting and mining and the rate of attempts.

Does that make sense guys?

 

[Sunsout Gunsout]

Thank you for the responses, guys. It definitely makes sense that the z5 just hasn't been clicked enough. I presumed it was out long before the Gyro, and therefore thought it was probably clicked as much, but I think the the point about the cost/click on the gyro being over 50% cheaper, and especially the Ark launch and VU crafting bonanzas to get BP's using the Gyro, is correct.

Time is the factor for equalization of BP's high loots, then. Now I just need to find out if that time is soon, or will I burn another years worth of z5 clicks with my mining finds, because that date in time is much farther away that I anticipated

 

[sostoned]

no proof, but quick calculations told me theres a max multiplier of 10000 in hunting. at least it was when small drones and argonauts dropped max 9k


Probably capped on max ath.

and i only checked lower mobs

btw, looks to me that nowadays more but lower hofs drop. so could be adjusted.