Question: Eco, eco, eco fact or fiction?

[WoenK]

G.Not sure but I think deposits and their size and how many.

That one definately not....no matter how much I deposit, I do not get more globals or HOFs or better loot...it all depends only on avereage PEDS cycled.

 

[atomicstorm]

If the aakas instances are any indication of how the hunting loot rolls work then eco seems to not affect anything but how wide the variance.

I am a firm believer in bond theory.

 

[Ardorj]

I've made a Huntinlog on PlanetArkadiaForum about the returns with some uneconomic PowerFists hunting on Halix. A short summary:

[Fact] I used four different PowerFists: Castorian EnKnuckles-A (2,738 Dmg/PEC), Castorian EnKnuckles-1 (2,558 Dmg/PEC), Mux-1 EnergyGlove (1,693 Dmg/PEC), and Mux-2 EnergyGlove (1,435 Dmg/PEC)
[Fact] I've done 25 hunts with each weapon. A little over 2000 PED in PowerFists decay, a small 100 PED in other costs (Bukin's Blade, S.I. H.E.A.R.T., InvestaFoe ES300) and ~1425 PED returned in loot. That is ~71% return on PowerFists and ~68% return on all costs.
[Fact] The returns split on each weapon, not taking the InvestaFoe ES300 into account are EnKnuckles-A: 85,65%; EnKnuckles-1: 78,81%; Mux-1: 66,09%; Mux-2: 58,88%.
[Fact] Short on 9200 Halixes had to die a horrible death for this experiment.
[Fact] I was a non-believer and not I am convinced that the Dmg/PEC plays an important role.

[Probably] There is a linear relationship between the Dmg/PEC of the weapon and return, in PEDs, you can expect to get back. This is roughly speaking Return% (Dmg/PEC) = 0,19*Dmg/PEC + 0,33.
[Probably] To get 90.00% return you will need a weapon with 3.000 Dmg/PEC.
[Probably] You need to take the Globals into the equation.

[Plausible] A weapon with better Eco gives loot with a better Markup.

[Doubt] To get better skillgains, you need to hunt as Uneco as possible.
[Doubt] The Dmg/PEC that is used is as if the weapon is maxed-out.

[Unknown] If the size of the Global/HoF depends on the Econess of the weapon used.

Thanks for this thread, without it I might still be using (unmaxed) uneconomic weapons believing that it doesn't matter.
Ardorj

 

[ermik]

I've made a Huntinlog on PlanetArkadiaForum about the returns with some uneconomic PowerFists hunting on Halix. A short summary:

[Fact] I used four different PowerFists: Castorian EnKnuckles-A (2,738 Dmg/PEC), Castorian EnKnuckles-1 (2,558 Dmg/PEC), Mux-1 EnergyGlove (1,693 Dmg/PEC), and Mux-2 EnergyGlove (1,435 Dmg/PEC)
[Fact] I've done 25 hunts with each weapon. A little over 2000 PED in PowerFists decay, a small 100 PED in other costs (Bukin's Blade, S.I. H.E.A.R.T., InvestaFoe ES300) and ~1425 PED returned in loot. That is ~71% return on PowerFists and ~68% return on all costs.
[Fact] The returns split on each weapon, not taking the InvestaFoe ES300 into account are EnKnuckles-A: 85,65%; EnKnuckles-1: 78,81%; Mux-1: 66,09%; Mux-2: 58,88%.
[Fact] Short on 9200 Halixes had to die a horrible death for this experiment.
[Fact] I was a non-believer and not I am convinced that the Dmg/PEC plays an important role.

[Probably] There is a linear relationship between the Dmg/PEC of the weapon and return, in PEDs, you can expect to get back. This is roughly speaking Return% (Dmg/PEC) = 0,19*Dmg/PEC + 0,33.
[Probably] To get 90.00% return you will need a weapon with 3.000 Dmg/PEC.
[Probably] You need to take the Globals into the equation.

[Plausible] A weapon with better Eco gives loot with a better Markup.

[Doubt] To get better skillgains, you need to hunt as Uneco as possible.
[Doubt] The Dmg/PEC that is used is as if the weapon is maxed-out.

[Unknown] If the size of the Global/HoF depends on the Econess of the weapon used.

Thanks for this thread, without it I might still be using (unmaxed) uneconomic weapons believing that it doesn't matter.
Ardorj

Yes the cost to produce each dmg point is of importance, but there are various ways to see it, i think your test lacks one important part. If you would have been maxxed on all 4 weapons this log would have been complete as a data sample.

As it is now we cant see how big portion of the difference in return comes from the difference in dmg/pec and the difference that you MISS with 3 of the weapons and not the 4th.

I am a beliver that when you kill a mob what you put in that mob is used for the calculation, in terms of succesful hits, if you besides the mob EVADE also have MISS to account for, ofcourse results are worse.

Thats why i did tests with 2 weapons where i maxxed 1 but not the other, but dmg/pec was roughly same.

 

[Dave Stevens]

I am a beliver that when you kill a mob what you put in that mob is used for the calculation, in terms of succesful hits, if you besides the mob EVADE also have MISS to account for, ofcourse results are worse.

I believe that the damage you personally do to that individual mob is irrelevant for that particular click of the loot button. There is a fixed calculation run with a RNG per mob/maturity. Depending on the RNG rolled, you might dip into the shared loot pool for some extras.

If you over damage a mob (by say taking it to 10% health, letting it heal, rince and repeat a few times) all you are doing is putting more into the shared pool that anyone could potentially grab, not just you.

ECO matters because you are either putting more or less into the shared loot pool than the other people fighting the same mob. I suggest you want to be putting less in than the people around you...

You can still get lucky being uneco, and its also complicated by higher DPS giving you more presses of the loot button (so better chance to take advantage of "good loot periods") but all else being equal, you are better off with an ECO gun that does 60 DPS than an uneco gun that also does 60 DPS. Its harder to work out the better gun if the eco one is 30 DPS and the uneco one is 90 DPS - clicking 3 times as often on the loot button might be better in a good loot period (it sure as hell will be worse in a bad loot period).

 

[Dave Stevens]

Something I didnt mention is that I believe the RNG seed is different for each person (what the seed is, I don,t know, could be avatar creation time, some function of the tier numbers on the weapon you use, the characters in your name, logon time, last time you use the TT, whatever, but I'm fairly sure its different for different people) as sometimes a mob is hot for 3 people and cold for 3 other people - they are just on different start points of the RNG cycle so are hitting the sweet point at different times.

 

[Luckycharm]

I think the starting letter of avatar names affects it a lot.

 

[Ape Drape]

So the game keeps a record of how much your items are decaying during the process of killing a mob, and this information is used to determine the loot that you get?

I highly doubt that decay has anything to do with loot calculations... at least as a positive modifier. If decay was a factor, I doubt MA would have coded MISS, EVADE, hit boxes that are much smaller than the mob, ninja spawn bum rush armor decay gang rapes, high regen mobs, items with awful decay rates, enhancers that speed up decay, etc.

 

[ZPF]

I would really prefer if we avoid speculation in this thread and stick with hard facts / references based on actual TESTING done by players (w/ links provided, preferably).

It still seems like we've yet to reach an actual consensus on... anything

 

[CozMoDan]

I would really prefer if we avoid speculation in this thread and stick with hard facts / references based on actual TESTING done by players (w/ links provided, preferably).

It still seems like we've yet to reach an actual consensus on... anything

Very true. I think there was some testing, fairly big amounts of ammo used etc. etc., but still inconclusive. I think the real factor is the random part of the code that says you are going get loot or not and how much. All the other factors, who knows what part they play but whatever ones they are the have to play a part. In fact in can not be completely random because that would be gambling and is illegal in Sweden. That was posted by MA to prove it was not completely random.

 

[Dave Stevens]

I would really prefer if we avoid speculation in this thread and stick with hard facts / references based on actual TESTING done by players (w/ links provided, preferably).

It still seems like we've yet to reach an actual consensus on... anything

You can only speculate. None of the testing done before is completely valid because it leaves too many unknowns on the table. E.g how much loot is in the pool before you start testing? What is the seed for the RNG? How many other players are fighting the same mob at the same time? Etc. Until MA publish the loot calculation, everything, by definition, has to be speculation...

 

[ZPF]

You can only speculate. None of the testing done before is completely valid because it leaves too many unknowns on the table. E.g how much loot is in the pool before you start testing? What is the seed for the RNG? How many other players are fighting the same mob at the same time? Etc. Until MA publish the loot calculation, everything, by definition, has to be speculation...

With enough testing I'm sure its possible to identify some patterns. It won't be 100% reliable but anything is better than PURE speculation, like "How much you deposited recently", or "How many MA employees you hugged today"

 

[Dave Stevens]

With enough testing I'm sure its possible to identify some patterns. It won't be 100% reliable but anything is better than PURE speculation, like "How much you deposited recently", or "How many MA employees you hugged today"

However much you"test" the 4 corner squares of a chess board, you will never be able to work out the rules of the game of chess. Whatever we do discover, will have many completely different interpretations, as this thread and countless others demonstrate. Just pick the theory that makes you happy. If none of them do, quit.

 

[CozMoDan]

The real thing that makes it impossible is the random generator imo. No matter what you think when the random part kicks in then all else means nothing. If your number is zero you get nothing all other numbers produce loot. Then only thing I think is certain is the size of the mod i.e. you will get a larger HOF/ATH from despleator than a snabbie and that the truth! lol

 

[Ardorj]

Yes the cost to produce each dmg point is of importance, but there are various ways to see it, i think your test lacks one important part. If you would have been maxxed on all 4 weapons this log would have been complete as a data sample.

As it is now we cant see how big portion of the difference in return comes from the difference in dmg/pec and the difference that you MISS with 3 of the weapons and not the 4th.

I am a beliver that when you kill a mob what you put in that mob is used for the calculation, in terms of succesful hits, if you besides the mob EVADE also have MISS to account for, ofcourse results are worse.

Thats why i did tests with 2 weapons where i maxxed 1 but not the other, but dmg/pec was roughly same.

Yes, I am aware that my testing lacks in the use of three unmaxed and one maxed weapon. However, it does point to Dmg/PEC being an important factor in the average outcome of the loot.
On ArkadiaForum I've posted a graph with the effective Dmg/PEC, ie. that accounts for the MISS and lower average Dmg done too and it looks a bit like the slope of the first three (unmaxed) weapons is steeper then with the fourth into. But when I connect the first three dots the equation becomes such that >~ 2,89 you will get 100% average return and that seems unlikely to me.

What was the outcome of your test with one maxed and one unmaxed weapon?

 

[ermik]

Yes, I am aware that my testing lacks in the use of three unmaxed and one maxed weapon. However, it does point to Dmg/PEC being an important factor in the average outcome of the loot.
On ArkadiaForum I've posted a graph with the effective Dmg/PEC, ie. that accounts for the MISS and lower average Dmg done too and it looks a bit like the slope of the first three (unmaxed) weapons is steeper then with the fourth into. But when I connect the first three dots the equation becomes such that >~ 2,89 you will get 100% average return and that seems unlikely to me.

What was the outcome of your test with one maxed and one unmaxed weapon?

Yes your tests were really interesting and do point out that dmg/pec ( or dpp as i call it ) is vital. However my tests suggest that MISS shots are lost entirely, wich means not beeing maxxed is a punishment far greater than a lower calculated dpp, if we assume dmg dealt to mob is somehow used in calc.

Low dpp could infact be good, if you max the equipment that generates the dmg, if markup on loot is good and you can sustain a big enough cycle to ride out the bad times.

But for most ppl, really almost everyone, beeing maxxed AND using equipment that generates dmg points as cheap as possible, while holding down defensive cost ( armor, fap ) is the best way to get the most out of the Entropia Universe hunting experience, since not bleeding out usually is more fun long term that shiny globals.

dpp is important, but if you get good dpp while not beeing maxxed, its just a shade you get blinded by.

Thats my conclusion, and in my testing ( ive done more tests than the one i published ) ive seen that if i use 2 weapons, 1 maxxed and 1 not maxxed, with same dpp ( even when calc accounting for skill lvls ) the difference in tt loot return was almost on the pec spot on what i lost on yellow line MISS with the non maxxed weapon, implying that i did infact buy loot from the system using a certain dpp, and i got the same return rate for both weapons based on the produced hits they did.

Both weapons had same amount of mob evades, but the unmaxxed weapon punished me more since the MISS shots never make it into the loot calc alogarithm.

Pardon for shitty english, my native language is not english and besides that im also quite lazy when it comes to booring tasks such as spelling

I like testing things and looking at how they work, its essential that more ppl do this, to ensure that player retention stays up, or rises, since most newcomers leave if they loose their ass off.

cheers

ermik

 

[sachi.mk2]

Yes your tests were really interesting and do point out that dmg/pec ( or dpp as i call it ) is vital. However my tests suggest that MISS shots are lost entirely, wich means not beeing maxxed is a punishment far greater than a lower calculated dpp, if we assume dmg dealt to mob is somehow used in calc.

Low dpp could infact be good, if you max the equipment that generates the dmg, if markup on loot is good and you can sustain a big enough cycle to ride out the bad times.

But for most ppl, really almost everyone, beeing maxxed AND using equipment that generates dmg points as cheap as possible, while holding down defensive cost ( armor, fap ) is the best way to get the most out of the Entropia Universe hunting experience, since not bleeding out usually is more fun long term that shiny globals.

dpp is important, but if you get good dpp while not beeing maxxed, its just a shade you get blinded by.

Thats my conclusion, and in my testing ( ive done more tests than the one i published ) ive seen that if i use 2 weapons, 1 maxxed and 1 not maxxed, with same dpp ( even when calc accounting for skill lvls ) the difference in tt loot return was almost on the pec spot on what i lost on yellow line MISS with the non maxxed weapon, implying that i did infact buy loot from the system using a certain dpp, and i got the same return rate for both weapons based on the produced hits they did.

Both weapons had same amount of mob evades, but the unmaxxed weapon punished me more since the MISS shots never make it into the loot calc alogarithm.

Pardon for shitty english, my native language is not english and besides that im also quite lazy when it comes to booring tasks such as spelling

I like testing things and looking at how they work, its essential that more ppl do this, to ensure that player retention stays up, or rises, since most newcomers leave if they loose their ass off.

cheers

ermik

I'd agree with most of that; I've lost the data I recorded as it was on my laptop which failed. However, I recorded stats with the following setups; recorded over hundreds of thousands of ped.

1. Imk2+a106 at around 2.95 dpp at HA 4.5-6.0
2. ML35me+evil at around 2.45 dpp at HA 6.7-6.9
3. Adj M6+a106 at around 2.80 dpp at HA 6.9-7.1

I had a lower return rate with the imk2. The ML35me was at 88.5% and 89% on the M6. The fact I used range enhancer and scope+sight on those weapons prolly accounts for the slightly better return rate (over HA). Imk2 was in the region of 87%.

Conclusion: the impact of dpp seemed very slight; if it existed at all.

 

[JohnCapital]

My long term (2+ years) TT return on hunting is only 88.56%...

In hopes of helping discussions, I've broken out my last 3 years of data into chunks, based on my changes in my base weapon. (The one I used most often)

PART 1
FF8Km + Karma Killer (most often used over this part)
Weapon = 1,711.39
Ammo = 11,847.45
Amps = 2,133.51
Armor = 415.84
Fap = 257.73
Misc. = 205.20 (Sights, Transportation, Refiner, Etc.)

Loot = 13,984.72
total tt return = 84.39%
weapon only TT = 89.12%
defense (armor+fap) = 4.82%


PART 2
FF8Km + P5a(L)
Weapon = 4,398.45
Ammo = 39,723.42
Amps = 9,210.16
Armor = 1,208.95
Fap = 250.74
Misc. = 72.10

Loot = 49,199.10
total tt return = 89.67%
weapon only TT = 92.25%
defense (armor+fap) = 2.97%


PART 3
UL Emik T10
Weapon = 6,544.70
Ammo = 43,418.07
Amps = 6,524.92
Armor = 670.65
Fap = 241.05
Misc. = 150.19

Loot = 53,115.21
total tt return = 92.29%
weapon only TT = 94.03%
defense (armor+fap) = 1.72%

Hope that helps.

 

[CozMoDan]

PART 1
FF8Km + Karma Killer (most often used over this part)
Weapon = 1,711.39
Ammo = 11,847.45
Amps = 2,133.51
Armor = 415.84
Fap = 257.73
Misc. = 205.20 (Sights, Transportation, Refiner, Etc.)

Loot = 13,984.72
total tt return = 84.39%
weapon only TT = 89.12%
defense (armor+fap) = 4.82%

John what is weapon only TT ?

 

[JohnCapital]

John what is weapon only TT ?

The Tt return vs only my weapon costs (weapons/ammo/amps) not counting armor, fap, refiner, etc. It helps show if there's too much being lost due to other costs (I.E. too much fapping, TP jumping after every other mob, etc.)

 

[Sub-Zero]

The Tt return vs only my weapon costs (weapons/ammo/amps) not counting armor, fap, refiner, etc. It helps show if there's too much being lost due to other costs (I.E. too much fapping, TP jumping after every other mob, etc.)

Imo the Emik T10 seemed to do better. Did you get any big hofs during that time? What about the other times?

Did you calculate your MU also? It would be interesting to see just how much the MU has helped bring losses down a bit.

 

[JohnCapital]

Did you calculate your MU also?

Of course. That's a different part of my spreadsheets. But since this discussion is eco, meaning TT returns vs spend, I'll leave that part out.

 

[CozMoDan]

The Tt return vs only my weapon costs (weapons/ammo/amps) not counting armor, fap, refiner, etc. It helps show if there's too much being lost due to other costs (I.E. too much fapping, TP jumping after every other mob, etc.)

Makes sense, thanks for the info. It is interesting that the decay, other than the weapon, causes such a loss.

 

[Tilli]

Is there any logs/data collected from extensive hunting with maxed weapon and having 10-15% def costs with armor/fap separated? Would be very interested in data like that.

 

[Fanan]

Is there any logs/data collected from extensive hunting with maxed weapon and having 10-15% def costs with armor/fap separated? Would be very interested in data like that.

I always heard that you should keep you total defense cost under 5% of the total running cost! If you are having defense cost above 5% your doing something wrong!

 

[Tilli]

I always heard that you should keep you total defense cost under 5% of the total running cost! If you are having defense cost above 5% your doing something wrong!

Yes, i know I want to know if there's any data to show if it actually make's a noticeable difference in a long run before starting my own tests.

 

[Black Widow iK]

Mobs loot is based on PED put into in order to kill, to a point, then loot is capped based on HP. I think if you're hunting a big mob on a server alone, and have data that can tell you what avg. highest loot normal(non-global or mini) is, then hunt using an uneco weapon that kills within that range, it doesn't matter much. Some people will hunt eco, for example, and kill a mob with a high avg. loot of 5 ped, but spend 3 ped, and only get 3 ped avg. high back when they could get 5 if they burned more, and kill quicker(pull lever on slot machine faster ). In the end it really is 90%, as many logs have shown for hunting/mining/crafting, and only MU/skills matter.

If you're in an event where the prize is independent of ped input, and you're competing on the same server, definitely go with the highest DPS 10/10 SIB you can use but beware of MU... Some believe the more ped you burn, the more uneco, the extra ped goes into the pool as a multiplier and can spur a HoF, but who the hell knows really besides MA.

Just my after 10 years

 

[edwinpogi]

there is evidence to support cost of kill is nothing

hence why eco comes in.

Otherwise why even buy eco guns... MA themselves have said eco is key

I think not all eco-ish makes profits. Its pure luck if you looted high m.u for example esi' .. I believe on 90 to 95 % tt returns

 

[atomicstorm]

I always heard that you should keep you total defense cost under 5% of the total running cost! If you are having defense cost above 5% your doing something wrong!

Why 5%? I target < 2%.

 

[JohnCapital]

Why 5%? I target < 2%.

My hunting stats since 2011 have my overall defense @ 2.33% of total hunting TT costs, with 1.76% being armor and 0.57% being faps.

Long term TT returns are currently 90.15%, which sounds great until you realize that I'd need to sell ALL my loot for at 112.04% in order to profit.

Or hit some thing more than a 27,060.82 TT uber.