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Question: Eco, eco, eco fact or fiction?

It's a Fact, and a Fiction

There's Eco Way and Damage Way.

Wish i knew how exactly it works. Still too noob for that, maybe someday... :smoke:
 
Xing Nu said:
If i remember right when every one was hunting argos near twin 10k was not rare drop.

I belive that the mobs 'retain' part of peds they eat and doing so buid the incoming big HOF's or ATH and i know am right this is proven every day by longtooth. You do realyse they always drop those 4K Hof's you that seems interested in the game you dont find strange that the number is always around 4K ?

Now i can chare something whith you before the and of august 21 at most you will see 58K drop from long tooth (mayby it will be split in two 35/40K like they did on levis last summer) is the MA taht will decide where they will place the triger.

I wont say any thing else but i know the loot is mob related and is when mob spawns i just dont want to tell you how i know. :)
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I do not disagree that the loot is mob related but not because the mob has loot when its spawns or because it accumulates loot during its lifetime. The mob is one of many factors in the equation used to figure the amount of loot to be determined when the mob is looted by the player. These factors may include type of mob, type of weapon, skills of the player, number of shots to kill the mob, number of heals during the killing, amount of decay on weapon, FAP, armor etc. and lastly size of the loot pool at that moment.
 
fred5283 said:
I didn't know if I should start a new thread or not, I guess I'll just ask my question here:

When does 90% return begin? Like at what eco = 90% TT? Or does it even matter?

I'm guessing it does because why would high eco weapons at 3.2+ go for large amounts of PED? But maybe not because you still get 90% return but spend less to get the same amount of skill points?
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the 90% TT return is not fixed, it is the approximate statistical average if a large amount of avatars were to play for a long time, and not do anything stupid, as tested by the community and a statistician.
individuals will have different TT return percentages in the short term.

the data and methods used can be found in this thread:
https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/showthread.php?132510-Mining-loot-analysis
a paper was published based on these tests:
https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/showthread.php?167998-Mining-Payout&highlight=
this test was repeated in 2012:
https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/showthread.php?230470-mining-data-2012

as you notice all these test were done with mining, there is less variation in eco in mining so the results should be cleaner.
 
There was a post made by Darth Skippie when he was using the AIMK2 maxed and how it showed that on TT he was break even if not in surplus. Was a really good showcase of what eco can do, especially since he also added in the MM to the table.
 
I simpy believe that it works like a slot machine.
In a casino all slot machines are connected. They have a payout ratio, which simply means that from every dollar that is pu in, 90% is paid again. All the slotmachines do, is take 10% off for the casino and redistribute the wealth.

So the overall payout is stable for the company, but can be highly fluctable for the individual.

I also think payouts are the same as slotmachines. Payouts of the slotmachine are determined on the value of the credit you are putting in eg a 25c slot machine will payout creditsx25c, a dollar machine will payout creditsx$1

Now MA could have adapted this with a few modifications. They have determined a cost per kill per creature, which is a constant. For example, an argonaut young cost 1 ped to kill. Loot is determined by multiplying that cost to kill factor. Aka loot will be 0%, 90%, 500% etc.

How does eco factor in, if you play more eco then you will be closer to MA's cost to kill value, and therefor your returns will be improved. You do have to factor all costs, so decay+ ammo.

This theory has the following advantages:
1. MA will not have to have a seperate lootlist for all creatures, these percentages can simply be used for every creature. This will also explain why we havent seen uber high loot on sm ller creauters lately.
2. It supports both theories, eco is important, but it doesnt conflict with cost to kill tests.

Regards

BB
 
Blackblood said:
I simpy believe that it works like a slot machine.
In a casino all slot machines are connected. They have a payout ratio, which simply means that from every dollar that is pu in, 90% is paid again. All the slotmachines do, is take 10% off for the casino and redistribute the wealth.

So the overall payout is stable for the company, but can be highly fluctable for the individual.

I also think payouts are the same as slotmachines. Payouts of the slotmachine are determined on the value of the credit you are putting in eg a 25c slot machine will payout creditsx25c, a dollar machine will payout creditsx$1

Now MA could have adapted this with a few modifications. They have determined a cost per kill per creature, which is a constant. For example, an argonaut young cost 1 ped to kill. Loot is determined by multiplying that cost to kill factor. Aka loot will be 0%, 90%, 500% etc.

How does eco factor in, if you play more eco then you will be closer to MA's cost to kill value, and therefor your returns will be improved. You do have to factor all costs, so decay+ ammo.

This theory has the following advantages:
1. MA will not have to have a seperate lootlist for all creatures, these percentages can simply be used for every creature. This will also explain why we havent seen uber high loot on sm ller creauters lately.
2. It supports both theories, eco is important, but it doesnt conflict with cost to kill tests.

Regards

BB
Click to expand...

Blackblood seems to have figured out how this thing works.+rep and gz
 
Blackblood said:
I simpy believe that it works like a slot machine.
In a casino all slot machines are connected. They have a payout ratio, which simply means that from every dollar that is pu in, 90% is paid again. All the slotmachines do, is take 10% off for the casino and redistribute the wealth.

So the overall payout is stable for the company, but can be highly fluctable for the individual.

I also think payouts are the same as slotmachines. Payouts of the slotmachine are determined on the value of the credit you are putting in eg a 25c slot machine will payout creditsx25c, a dollar machine will payout creditsx$1

Now MA could have adapted this with a few modifications. They have determined a cost per kill per creature, which is a constant. For example, an argonaut young cost 1 ped to kill. Loot is determined by multiplying that cost to kill factor. Aka loot will be 0%, 90%, 500% etc.

How does eco factor in, if you play more eco then you will be closer to MA's cost to kill value, and therefor your returns will be improved. You do have to factor all costs, so decay+ ammo.

This theory has the following advantages:
1. MA will not have to have a seperate lootlist for all creatures, these percentages can simply be used for every creature. This will also explain why we havent seen uber high loot on sm ller creauters lately.
2. It supports both theories, eco is important, but it doesnt conflict with cost to kill tests.

Regards

BB
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I almost totally agree

It is more logical if value of loot is calculated by damage done, not by mob.

i think your theory will be more logical with that system

Eco helps big just because its cheaper to kill the mob.

More tickets to the lotery for less ped

thats why dps isnt that important, regen isnt wasted.


edit: btw, loot is made when the mob is looted, not a second before that. (Additional info, nothing to do with quote)

Dunno where it is but its mindark statement. And logical.
 
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CozMoDan said:
Looking at all the different replies and trying to understand them has been a chore but I think I have done as well as any.

I think I have come to one conclusion: All the theories are trying to find a pattern in, what I think is mostly a random event. The event being getting loot. I must say that I think that eco plays a part in profit but I also think that you are either lucky or not. I believe that there are factors that help in getting loot like mob, weapon, amount of time played etc. I also think there must be some kind of algorithm that has to do with your avatar. MA has said that gambling is illegal is their country so there must be something that makes the game not 100% random, hence the factors I mentioned above but I think the game is still 95% or more random.
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The skillsystem makes it no gambling.
 
Cthulhu said:
Blackblood seems to have figured out how this thing works.+rep and gz
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its a good start however alot of things arent explained or claryfied by his post.
 
Blackblood said:
They have determined a cost per kill per creature, which is a constant. For example, an argonaut young cost 1 ped to kill. Loot is determined by multiplying that cost to kill factor. Aka loot will be 0%, 90%, 500% etc.
Click to expand...

My opinion too. Loot based on cost to kill (MA value based on a eco setup) x multipliers. It seems higher multipliers were removed from many mobs or made much rarer, hence smaller hofs. No more 7000 PED on Argo young... Very possible that very big multipliers are activated now only end of month or during events following MA income or at recommendation of their psychologist :cool:.

Many people think that damage done to mob (more the better) have importance and so the mob regeneration does not really matter - is their right to believe so, but my opinion is they are very, very wrong. Fiddling around with a pea-shooter around regen mobs will only increase YOUR cost to kill and the loot will not match your extra expenses. Try shooting an Allo/Esto with a smallish gun, eco or not, the time to kill will almost double but the loot will not follow - you'll face a 50% TT return more often than not.

Also each mob has its own loot list and multipliers, how it can be the other way? - a database associated with each mob. You could hunt forever puny, all you get is 4-5-10 types of loot (oils/components/nova), specific anatomic parts and 3-4 types of small guns. I do not think is possible to loot ESI or other goodies on small mobs anymore unless MA activated on purpose for limited time or they messed-up their databases.

Speaking of messed-up databases / multipliers, this is the moment when all the players with possibilities flock to take advantage, pop dragons comes in mind.

Skill will only offer you the possibility to use better guns / hunt better mobs loot-wise. I'm on opinion that lower mobs have less TT return on long run to make players skill up, seeking that dream mob, or deposit or both. As a compensation, the puny mobs are looting some MU loot (daiki wool, carabok hides, foul bones, Calypso bones) but as MU is also player-driven, some quickly become TT food (Caly bones for example).

As when loot is calculated, I do not think that is when mob is spawned - there are maybe thousands (ten of thousands?) of mobs already spawned across the Universe, it would mean a whole small database inside a database for each one stating their loot even if no one is hunting them for months - if no server resets. Huge amount of data to be kept on servers.

I do think that mobs are kept spawned even if no-one around, even if sometimes mobs are de-spawned (tried to run in Thule followed by daikiba pets and sometimes they disappear after a while)

The best optimal way would be that loot is calculated at mob death or at looting time, based on: (random numbers * items in mob loot list * item rarity * MA cost to kill * multipliers * unknowns). Unknowns can be time/location, as many players know "hot-spots" with generous mobs but could be just bias.
 
ermik said:
its a good start however alot of things arent explained or claryfied by his post.
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It is indeed a start & I believe the interconnection is correct.
The return % exclusive globals is different from mob to mob though (and steady too).

Anyway, I believe that the less people play eco, the more effect eco has.
As it is interconnect you don't have any benefit if everyone plays eco ;)

Therefor I ask everyone to play as un-eco as possible, so I can benefit even more from continuing playing eco :)
 
Playing eco merely ensures more number of mobs killed at the same price and lower repair costs nothingelse and not more Money to you in loot, but playing un-eco is more Money to MA and the planet partners and LA-owners if you use private LA to hunt on.
 
AtamiKiangola said:
Therefor I ask everyone to play as un-eco as possible, so I can benefit even more from continuing playing eco :)
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I have to agree to this. Could you all please play as uneco as you can so I can have better loot. Thank you with your co-operation in this matter :tiphat:

valentin said:
Playing eco merely ensures more number of mobs killed at the same price and lower repair costs nothingelse
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Nothing else eh. hehe ok please all listen to valentin. Remember it's pointless playing eco there are no real benefits to loot :D
 
Tepes said:
As when loot is calculated, I do not think that is when mob is spawned - there are maybe thousands (ten of thousands?) of mobs already spawned across the Universe, it would mean a whole small database inside a database for each one stating their loot even if no one is hunting them for months - if no server resets. Huge amount of data to be kept on servers.

I do think that mobs are kept spawned even if no-one around, even if sometimes mobs are de-spawned (tried to run in Thule followed by daikiba pets and sometimes they disappear after a while)

The best optimal way would be that loot is calculated at mob death or at looting time, based on: (random numbers * items in mob loot list * item rarity * MA cost to kill * multipliers * unknowns). Unknowns can be time/location, as many players know "hot-spots" with generous mobs but could be just bias.
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Geez why uncover all EU secrets at once! :eyecrazy:

Kiddin, no big secrets really. MA support has confirmed (several times, when answering to different ppl) that loot is calculated at the moment of looting. The mission counters are updated when u kill the mob, and there's no reason to update data twice so it's most likely the moment of killing the mob actually. It's there, ready and waiting, with the name of the avatar who can loot it. Small difference actually, basically the same thing what support says.

I can only agree with the rest of your post also. Uneco hunting will be compensated a little, server periodically checks the overall balance loot Vs. decay - if your balance is negative there's a possibility that some of it will be compensated on the next mob/mining claim, and this compensation might be rewarded with a higher multiplier (Global/HoF/ATH). Explains why globals often come in waves. But it's only a possibility, and it depends on many other factors as well (time, location, spawn, general state of economy).

This balancing mechanism brings hunting eco and hunting uneco closer to each other but in the long run eco hunting ensure more stable and (as a rule) also a little higher average return. However, uneco gives a better chance at hitting the jackpot, this big fat multiplier that can change everything... but usually, will never come. :)
 
Magnus Mag said:
about the cost to kill discussion..

i made a little test on punys with low lvl weapon and overamping and posted the raw data here:

https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/...ot-Mechanics&p=3053477&highlight=#post3053477

it significantly points towards cost to kill affects loot.

this is a test you can easily reproduce which doesn't cost a fortune...

have fun:)
Click to expand...

Actually, this just shows that an amplifier increases possible return... which is the WHOLE POINT of an amplifier. We know that the increased decay from an amp will increase return percentage. The ultimate question is will things like extra damage to combat regen or if overkill damage will increase return. That still seems to be very much in debate.
 
CozMoDan said:
When I started in 2007 I did, as I am sure most do, use this forum to try to see what, where, when and how to hunt. What weapons, what amps and so on. The thing I got out of the hours of reading (which I enjoyed I must admit) was to use the most eco weapons and amps and try to hunt the biggest mob that your skills would allow. I now see a trend in thinking that I had not seen before. It seems the consensus is your loot is based on the amount of decay that you have when hunting. I have watched Star on stargazing and he is very eco, mod merc, dmg enhancers and ancient amps and gets a lot of gbls and hofs, of course he is hunting huge mobs but he burns through a lot ammo but, by comparison, I don't think his decay based on the amount the he burns is that high. For example, when I first started I got up to an LR53, as I recall, with an E-AMP-15 (this was before enhancers) and hunted Atroxes. I would almost bet that my decay was as much as Star's killing a spider stalker (well maybe not that much but close). Back then I was playing alot and would get 10-12 gbls a day, nothing big but I only did 50 ped runs.

So my point is, is it better to hunt using the most un-eco equiment because of more decay hence more loot and the chance to get bigger gbls or HOFs.

Just a side note, my first gbl was actually 659 ped HOF using a merc at lvl 21 handgunner (hit was 2.1/10 and I don't remember the dmg but I am sure is was about the same LOL) and it was months before I got just a gbl.

Just a thought. let me know what you think.
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It still is best to hunt as eco as possible, unless you are in an event. In an event doing the most dps can make a winner. I have won some events by sheer dps where I didn't global but others did. Your dps "catches" lower dps shooters who do global. We are not all star, so sometimes dps is not equal to econess.. but I would still try to be as eco as possible whilst doing big dps
 
Ofcourse dmg/pec is important, it makes the swing smaller the better it is.

I played for long using a a104, then moved up to a105, but with a106, the game changed for real to the better.

Ive done alot of tests to place me where i am today playstyle wise.
 
Loot theories

A lottery is a lottery is a lottery....
 
Playing eco is definitely important. The actual damage/PEC ratio does seem to have some impact on loot, but not a linear one. Hunting with a 1.5 PED/k melee weapon will not yield half the loot of a 3 PED/k melee weapon, but loot will not be identical either. I believe loot calculation includes some sort of "softening" function to press returns up or down toward some magical number like 90%, but better damage/PEC will still result in better % returns.

Then there's the matter of armor/FAP/etc., which obviously does not pay back anything.
 
Uncle Mo said:
Complete and utter bullshit!

Spending more PED to kill a mob has no effect on the output TT value of that mob's loot. You're just wasting PED. Mindark has flat out stated that eco is paramount.
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umm.. tell that to a certain alan krom :eyecrazy:

on another note: there cant be any pre loot, because we wouldnt experience loot lag, which is the loot server hanging as it struggles to clear a huge backlog of calcs, when it eventually gets free you get a bunch of values. Like a print spooler for example.

also, my averages are 94/5% Im sortof eco, but not much, I use a kinetic chip. On some mobs my armour decay is practially nothing, on others its huge. Doesnt matter, I get 95% BOOM!

I think its all included. If you want big loots then push big ped through.

Oh, when I hunt v. uneco on horribly unmaxed weapons, guess what, I always get rewarded in the following few days with a big loot which brings me to 94% ish!

When crafting the hof ammount and number gets entirely predictable when u cycle the same amount. Same with mining depending on how its set by MA as it been changing frequently.

Its not gambling at all. Even condition crafting is not gambling. Just the swings are bigger.

90% isnt 90% of 90% of 90% recurring. Its one long linear pattern that can last over infinity.

The money I loose is from markup because I am unable to cover the 10% avg MU needed, that is all.
 
Kitch, do you keep a record? or do you want to track one.
Not saying you lie, but it is easy to be faulty if you don't track every ped.
 
ECO is a fact and influences your outcome in this game.

However, not many understand ECO, ECO it's not just about your gun DPP or your armor PPP or your fap HPP in other words it's not a MA defined property

ECO is everything combined, once one sees that it becomes clear that ECO matters:)

Like IRL, you save money on food you get sick spending more money on doctors, have you been ECO in doing that? no

Think about it:)
 
Kitch said:
umm.. tell that to a certain alan krom :eyecrazy:

on another note: there cant be any pre loot, because we wouldnt experience loot lag, which is the loot server hanging as it struggles to clear a huge backlog of calcs, when it eventually gets free you get a bunch of values. Like a print spooler for example.

also, my averages are 94/5% Im sortof eco, but not much, I use a kinetic chip. On some mobs my armour decay is practially nothing, on others its huge. Doesnt matter, I get 95% BOOM!

I think its all included. If you want big loots then push big ped through.

Oh, when I hunt v. uneco on horribly unmaxed weapons, guess what, I always get rewarded in the following few days with a big loot which brings me to 94% ish!

When crafting the hof ammount and number gets entirely predictable when u cycle the same amount. Same with mining depending on how its set by MA as it been changing frequently.

Its not gambling at all. Even condition crafting is not gambling. Just the swings are bigger.

90% isnt 90% of 90% of 90% recurring. Its one long linear pattern that can last over infinity.

The money I loose is from markup because I am unable to cover the 10% avg MU needed, that is all.
Click to expand...

again, who said Alan krom profited on that 330k ATH ?
 
Profit said:
...
If you're trying to roll over your bankroll in the most effective way, maximising potential profit, then you go eco.
If you're trying to ATH, then you decay as much as possible....
Click to expand...

this sums it up for me.. still there are always exceptions if you look for them
 
Acro said:
Kitch, do you keep a record? or do you want to track one.
Not saying you lie, but it is easy to be faulty if you don't track every ped.
Click to expand...

hey - its all in excel mate - tt return is from ammo, fap, weapon decay of both weapons and armour decay. over months of cycling its pretty steady. MU in/out is excluded from this its pure TT im thinking about, though I do track in//outs w/ markup on different columns

cheers

ermik said:
again, who said Alan krom profited on that 330k ATH ?
Click to expand...

no thats what I am saying actually that its been heavily stated that people think he was being uneco and cycling (probably losing) huge amounts leading up to it.
I said that as an exception to the eco wins concept..

EDIT: been thinking abit and actually think I do hunt fairly eco.. w/o going into details.. I used to get poor returns until over the course of many months I was mentored by a hunter mate and slowly as I adjusted my style under his direction then yes I started to see the 95% he promised I would..
 
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So the game keeps a record of how much your items are decaying during the process of killing a mob, and this information is used to determine the loot that you get?
 
ZPF said:
So the game keeps a record of how much your items are decaying during the process of killing a mob, and this information is used to determine the loot that you get?
Click to expand...

Not quite, there is most likely a buffer for each mob that contains the total dmg you do to that mob or total tt spent while doing the dmg and where armor decay may or may not be included for each time that mob managed to hit you but how it tracked is more a matter of religion.

When you loot the mob the number in that buffer is ran together with a multiplier that generates the value of that mobs loot.

Some ppl will say its totally random but they can never provide any data while alot of analytic ppl can show alot of tests that suggests the system works somewhat in line with what ive described.
 
ZPF said:
So the game keeps a record of how much your items are decaying during the process of killing a mob, and this information is used to determine the loot that you get?
Click to expand...

I think there are several factors including but not limited to the following:

A.Mob type and mob maturity I.E. gibnib verses hoggolo
B.ammo used
C.decay on weapons, armor, FAP etc.
D.Total Loot pool
E.Mob Loot pool percent
F.Your Avatar past record I.E. when was you last loot, global, HOF or ATH and the size of each.
G.Not sure but I think deposits and their size and how many.

Lastly a multiplier(X) based on the above criteria and some type random multiplier(Y) is also applied.

So it might look like this ((A+B+C+D+E+F+G) * X) * Y = Amount of Loot


This is what I think and I am still not exactly sure how eco effects all of this if, that is, I am even close to knowing that the above is even close to true:scratch2:
 
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