A deeper look into the Loot Pool.

[Lorespade]

This thread is about how Players and MA/FPC have managed to botch things and set us into a downward spiral in loots. This is a General Discussion, on Loot pool Dynamics and how everything is tied together. As a reader of this thread i urge you to read carefully. And Fact Find to support or oppose the general idea of the thread.

Loot Pool entry points:

1: Ammo from hunting, every shot of every ammo burn amount. 1pec per ammo burnt. this goes into the loot pool. <100 ammo 1 PED>

2: TT value of loot in crafting, with every crafting faulure X amount of TT value goes back into the loot pool.

3: Every bomb and probe dropped, 1 PED per bomb 50 pec per probe. this goes into the loot pool.

The base of loot pool. above the most common entry points

4: Auction house Fees. +/- 50 pec per auction. plus commission fee

5: Apartment rents.

6: Shop Rents.

7: *PVP although this goes into ammo section pvp has an out point that is the Oil Rig, and the entry point of PVP.

*And Some theory based entry points:

8: (L) Items also contribute to the loot pool. as they cannot be repaired, and sometimes depend on drops. these items are very important to crafters if they craft them, and these items might be tied into the crafter pool or special drops loot pool.


Now as i get more information i will edit in some further numbers. becouse i am here to tell you 5, and 6. once you see how much that puts into the loot pool per month you will get a feel for where the loot went.

so i am going to gather some info in game really quick. and will be back to edit in some info.

* Hardwrath said it best when he said "Even if you figure out how the loot pool works it is impossible to exploit it." and this is true.

 

[Zane]

I believe that the "loot pool" is just the finished product of many algorithms put together by determining how much money is circulating.

It's interesting though... If people stop buying ammo, the algorithms could either make loot great on mobs in general (to facilitate more hunting of mobs, therefore spending more PED on ammo, thus those PEDs have reached the end of their journey through EU), OR decrease loot to make people feel more persistent. My guess is for the first one.

So, if this theory is correct, if everyone in-game went out and bought 500 ammo all at about the same time, hunting returns would generally be better or worse than before (though I am opting for better, it's just my opinion).

The same would work for bombs/probes.

Crafting is the strange one to me, since you can't buy anything for crafting (other than books, and some low-end BPs) from an FPC service. Almost ALL crafting "ingredients" are made possible through mining and hunting, so it's quite difficult to see what the crafting globals and HoFs would be based from. Yes, I do count globals and HoFs from crafting to be part of the loot pool. It's not technically "loot", but it's still a random chance.

The way I see it, the more spending at TT's, the auction house, apartments, shops, and all else that Lores mentioned, the better the overall returns for everyone! We are set up to lose for the most part, since MA/FPC are businesses.

 

[Lorespade]

Ammo only enters the loot pool as it hits a mob. Crafting is when all those failures and nothing is given its added up, that goes to the loot pool. The AH Fees go into the loot pool. The Shops and apartment fee's go into the loot pool also. Its all dependant on if all these things are functioning properly.

I see some areas where they are not. and its no ones fault really. but people can point fingers.

What parts of the loot pool do you guys think is all mucked up?

 

[Photon]

Of course, you do realise that similar to the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle, any attempt to analyse or measure the loot pool will cause it to change.

 

[Lorespade]

if thats the case then let them change it. oh wait, they will soon

And you cant Measure something if you dont have all the information on how it works. Same applys to gravitons and electrons.

 

[alan0n]

Just this:

Thats right, I have crazy skills in mspaint.

 

[Lorespade]

Are you trying to say thinking about the loot pool makes your noggin numb? its not quantum phishsticks. nor is it Rocket Surgery.

 

[HardWrath]

Funds enter EU through deposits and then exist as player owned funds. By looking at MindArk balance sheet you can see they do in fact track player owned funds. Please note, I am only talking about TT values here. Market Value is irrelevant to this.

When you buy something from another player funds simply transfer from you to him and still exist as player held funds.

When you repair the decay of your items, PED are subtracted from player owned funds and then counted as revenue for MindArk

When you buy ammo from the TT, nothing happens... you still have the same TT value as you did before.

When you burn up that ammo, the value of it enters the loot system. The value of ammo, bombs, probes, etc from the TT enter the loot system when used. Various fees from around EU also enter the loot system.

Think about PvP for a minute. The ammo spent in PvP is a strait dump into the loot system without taking anything out. Thank PKers for helping your loot... now please petition First Planet Company to add more PVP to EU in order to help loot.

I also believe that the TT value of crafting losses enter the loot system.

Ever wonder why loot is bad?

Think about a hunt with 300 PED ammo... let’s say you have 100 PED decay from that hunt for a total hunt cost of 400 PED. In that hunt, your ammo burn is all that entered the loot system and not the decay costs. Everyone else that is hunting is only dumping the ammo burn value into the loot system but ALL hunters are hoping to recover their ammo burn and decay costs. That means each hunter out there is hoping the loot system will pay out more than they are putting in.

In the scenario of 300 PED ammo and 100 PED decay, you put 300 PED back into the loot system but want to get at least 400 PED out of it... this means that someone else needs to lose 100 PED just for you to break even. Well every other hunter is in the same situation.

Think about decay heavy BLP weapons, amps, and melee items which are pure decay. Talk about a drain on the loot system.

Would over all loot returns be better if every single EU player used low decay high ammo burn weapons? I think it would. Since that scenario would never happen, let’s look at things that are a strait dump of PED into the loot system.

The fees throughout the game generally enter the loot system however these fees aren’t enough to make much of an impact.

PvP can be an incredible dump of ped into the loot system. 15 People PKing for 30 minutes will generate over 1000 PED in ammo burn and decay. Let’s assume that 700 PED of that is ammo burn which means it enters the loot system.

First Planet Company needs to dramatically increase the level of PvP activity in Calypso. They could do this by creating more PvP venues in EU.

- Add an oil rig and small PvP area near Port Atlantis
- Add an oil rig inside of lootable PvP
- Create land grab training areas
- Create frequent large scale PvP events
- Make all Amethera outposts and service centers PvP areas again
- Create precious stone mineral mines which are underground lootable PvP areas that occasionally have valuable precious stones spawning on the ground as well as premium mining and hunting areas in them to attract people
- Create more land grab land areas on Amethera and instead of doing one big land grab each year, run a land grab every 6 months for half of the land areas.


All of those things together would dramatically increase PvP activity on Calypso which would pump all kinds of money into the loot system through ammo burn.

While MindArk does control the balancing system itself, First Planet Company is capable of affecting the system by creating new venues like the ones listed above.

 

[Photon]

Are you trying to say thinking about the loot pool makes your noggin numb? its not quantum phishsticks. nor is it Rocket Surgery.

The suggestion was more along the lines of openly discussing and guessing correctly (based on impirical data) will cause the balancing manager to change stuff pronto ...

Think of the balancing manager as the system behind what we think we know of quantum mechanics.

(just kidding of course)

 

[HardWrath]

The suggestion was more along the lines of openly discussing and guessing correctly (based on impirical data) will cause the balancing manager to change stuff pronto ...

Think of the balancing manager as the system behind what we think we know of quantum mechanics.

(just kidding of course)

It seems that the fundamentals of the loot system have not changed since they switched from PED loots to stackable items

With this loot system, even if you understand it, you still cant really exploit it.

 

[mandu]

Of course, you do realise that similar to the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle, any attempt to analyse or measure the loot pool will cause it to change.

I thought the same thing !

https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/general-discussion/86938-agnostics-lootius.html

 

[LeeYap]

It seems that the fundamentals of the loot system have not changed since they switched from PED loots to stackable items

With this loot system, even if you understand it, you still cant really exploit it.

Much better TY

 

[LeeYap]

Keys to success:

1) Never shoot a MOB which doesn't loot.
2) Never drop a bomb or probe where it produces a NFR.
3) Never craft an item which has less than a 500% MU and materials to craft have more than a 100% mu.
4) Always sell items for more than you buy them for.

pffft this game is so easy.

 

[carpatha]

mine question is if evryone has a own lootpool or if their is a global lootpool

 

[Nooba]

When you repair the decay of your items, PED are subtracted from player owned funds and then counted as revenue for MindArk

I don't quite understand this one, since the TT value of your avatar has already decreased, the item now has less TT until you repair it, the repair surely comes under the same heading as buying ammo etc, i.e. your avatar TT value remains the same, it's while you are using the item that the decay is incurred.

 

[Kamarkos Danix]

does it EVEN exist

seriously, isn't this just a concept players invented.

pbbly MA/FPC calls it a diffrent name *gonna join FPC now *

 

[Wildman Alpha]

Loot Pool entry points:

1: Ammo from hunting, every shot of every ammo burn amount. 1pec per ammo burnt. this goes into the loot pool. <100 ammo 1 PED>

2: TT value of loot in crafting, with every crafting failure X amount of TT value goes back into the loot pool.

3: Every bomb and probe dropped, 1 PED per bomb 50 pec per probe. this goes into the loot pool.

The base of loot pool. above the most common entry points

4: Auction house Fees. +/- 50 pec per auction. plus commission fee

5: Apartment rents.

6: Shop Rents.

7: <further info>

MA can't keep putting used loots (equal proportions I mean) back into the loot pool. If your thinking this way you might be wrong. Example, If economy is at 1mil and we don't depo X amount this month equal or greater than last months depos and money is still being withdrawn from game equal or greater to last month. This continues for several months MA will soon be working in red on profits. How can they keep the in game economy 1 for 1 if it isn't their to put back in. Think of MA as the house when you go gambling and you will see my point they only have X amount of cash available to keep fluid (in the form of loots)in the game. Yes we built up the loot pool by depo but if the withdraws out pace the depos who wins? Not the common player fighting for the small globals he is getting.

 

[mastermesh]

In the scenario of 300 PED ammo and 100 PED decay, you put 300 PED back into the loot system but want to get at least 400 PED out of it... this means that someone else needs to lose 100 PED just for you to break even. Well every other hunter is in the same situation.

This is a very good point... and means that if you want to be profitable, one way to do so would be to hunt at your own level without armor!

Similarly, go grab some friends so that you can take mobs down without them coming up on you and taking away your gains in armor decay!

A handful of mid to low level hunters with amped opalos CAN take down an eomon. It might take a while, but if the revive isn't too far away, it can be done... wearing armor on something like that is pointless anyways since one hit kills almost every time, so take it off. The amp on the gun will cost you a bit in decay, but not nearly as much as the amp decay + armor decay if you are wearing armor.

How do you increase your chances out there without armor... go sweat, swunt, and/or just create mob trains that you sit in one place for a long while - just go out there and let them chew you up, then revive and come back to take it some more.

Also, it's never been confirmed that maintanence fees or "rent" as they are starting to call it even if it's not really rent, feeds MA|FPC or feeds the loot pool... In many ways, it is like a decay charge,... and it's paying for server space sort of... so you'd think it'd go to MA?

 

[LeWolf86]

does it EVEN exist

seriously, isn't this just a concept players invented.

pbbly MA/FPC calls it a diffrent name *gonna join FPC now *

Hahha was gonna say same thing ...

But I bet their is some form of loot pool... whether its individual or total... we dont know what or how much goes into.... everyone says ammo and such stuff goes into loot pool because Marco says so...

Well Marco says decay is revenue.... decay could be anything... we call decay any sort of dmg to a weapon/armor/amps from usage.... of course that isn't the primary source of revenue... because if this was true crafting would have no decay....

I think whatever is spent has % go into pool and a % go into MA pockets, what the division is... I dont know...

The auction system alone if all its fee's collected went back to loot pool we'd have a lot more cash going around... think 10 of the most bought/sold items on the auction.... add up all the order fees, listing fee's, markup fee's collected by MA.... some stuff has huge volume.....

 

[Botchla]

ahh... the loot pool the 8th wonder of the eu world

Of course the loot pool comes from ammo burned, repairs, nrf's, all the fees for auction and shops etc. etc. etc... We all know this, the question is, how is it distribued,, some people think its a combo of time and location. Most believe its a set algorithms which even if we all knew what they were could never figure out when and where. The way the loot system is set up now is where you either have to be a reseller or one of the few amazingly lucky people to get huge profits to compensate the amount of money spent individually, meaning, if you put 5k usd in in one year, you will have to find a loot worth 60k ped to profit or equall to durring that year, and how often do we see 60k ped aths??
Something has to be done with the "loot" system eventually or eu will just be like a really REALLY expensive monthly subscription fee type of game, example,, yesterday I depo'd 50 usd,, within 2 hrs I was down to 6 ped. I'm kindof become comforitable with this which is really sad, I think alot of us have become comforitable with throwing money away in eu for the simple fact that, it is a fun game! gl out there

 

[apache_ZC]

....

Think about a hunt with 300 PED ammo... let’s say you have 100 PED decay from that hunt for a total hunt cost of 400 PED. In that hunt, your ammo burn is all that entered the loot system and not the decay costs. Everyone else that is hunting is only dumping the ammo burn value into the loot system but ALL hunters are hoping to recover their ammo burn and decay costs. That means each hunter out there is hoping the loot system will pay out more than they are putting in.

In the scenario of 300 PED ammo and 100 PED decay, you put 300 PED back into the loot system but want to get at least 400 PED out of it... this means that someone else needs to lose 100 PED just for you to break even. Well every other hunter is in the same situation.

Think about decay heavy BLP weapons, amps, and melee items which are pure decay. Talk about a drain on the loot system.

Would over all loot returns be better if every single EU player used low decay high ammo burn weapons? I think it would. Since that scenario would never happen, let’s look at things that are a strait dump of PED into the loot system.

...

Isnt decay of an item exactly the same as firing ammo or dropping a bomb? To me it seems like its some value you loose when using an item. So same as when you burn ammo or bombs, decay should be also counted into the loot?

 

[Huskie]

Think about a hunt with 300 PED ammo... let’s say you have 100 PED decay from that hunt for a total hunt cost of 400 PED. In that hunt, your ammo burn is all that entered the loot system and not the decay costs. Everyone else that is hunting is only dumping the ammo burn value into the loot system but ALL hunters are hoping to recover their ammo burn and decay costs. That means each hunter out there is hoping the loot system will pay out more than they are putting in.

In the scenario of 300 PED ammo and 100 PED decay, you put 300 PED back into the loot system but want to get at least 400 PED out of it... this means that someone else needs to lose 100 PED just for you to break even. Well every other hunter is in the same situation.

Think about decay heavy BLP weapons, amps, and melee items which are pure decay. Talk about a drain on the loot system.

Yeah, so according to that theory melee hunters should be happy to get even one PEC back from their hunts, since it's pure decay which isn't "put back into the loot pool"?

Ammo = decay

It's just there for the flavor, to make guns feel more like guns. Though the gameplay value added by that is minimum, at best. But it sure is good at making people make all sorts of strange theories and generating uncertainty.

I don't buy for one second that whole "revenue is taken from decay" talk. Money gets deposited, it's in MA's hands, end of story. It doesn't matter whatever the hell you do with it. Sure they have to keep a little bit safe for the few (comparatively to deposits) withdrawals, but other than that it's in MA's bank account generating interest.

It's all just based in an algorithm to pay you back PEDs cycled - X over time (even taking into account ubers and globals and whatnot, given enough time), X being whatever MA thinks they need to make players happy without generating too many withdrawals that they'll have to spare bigger reserves of the deposits for it. Of course, the opinions of everyone, including MA's, on whether the current X amount is suitable or not is a whole other can of worms.

If anything, the only PEDs I believe they can reliably "take out of the system" are those paid in equipping/auction/estate maintenance/you-name-it fees. And not even those are a certainty. Only way to experiment would have an avatar incur massive fees on something before trying out a profession to see if he hits it big after some time to make up for it. It would still be hard to be taken as evidence and even then, other similar experiments on other circumstances have shown that's not likely to happen.

 

[Lorespade]

Oh i might be stepping out on a limb here but (L) items i beleive the decay feeds the loot pool also.

It is only through Repairs that MA gets their money.

As with (L) items they go back into the loot pool


And Hardwrath i have differnt veiws on the current pvp system, and how it can be improved. and you might not like it. but currently i do not beleive with the oil rig in itself in opperation under current conditions makes for good pvp. there really isnt that much fighting over it at this time and it is only up for grabs to those with the biggest bankroll. Not that this is wrong. but it doesnt make for very balenced PVP. Like in other games not mentioned they seperate the lower level players into brackets and let them battle it out.

but there is no such option in this game nor should there, but some new ideas could in fact help the loot pool. something balenced.

Under (L) weapons feeding the loot pool it makes sence, if you use a (UL) weapon you seem to not get as much loot return imo. butwhen you use (L) you do, imo.

But that being said to use (L) in pvp your at an advantage, in a way. but your also feeding more into the loot pool. but also acting as a power house.

* Also unless PVPers are feeding around 10-15 ped into the loot pool every 15 or so mins, Current PVP conditions is a drain on the loot pool IMO. So balencing the PVP will balence the loot pool, but only for this entry and outro point. there are other points of entry and outro that need fixing also.

But i dont want this to be to much about pvp and not the loot pool, but then again yeah pvp is a loot pool contributer. and i will edit this into the page 1.

 

[HardWrath]

Oh i might be stepping out on a limb here but (L) items i beleive the decay feeds the loot pool also.

It is only through Repairs that MA gets their money.

As with (L) items they go back into the loot pool

MindArk gets their money from our deposits and of that money they don’t just spend what we decay. This can be seen in their financial report:

http://mindark.se/press/financial-reports/documents/Semi-Annual-report-Q2-2009.pdf

Liquid Assets: 23.2 million SEK
User Holdings (Contingent Liabilities) AKA player deposits = 39 million SEK

When thinking about this stuff you have to differentiate between MA's disposable money and the economy in game. They are two different things and have been for a couple of years now.

That aside, I disagree with you on (L) items. Their decay works the same as everything else... it’s a method to reduce player held funds (Contingent Liabilities)

When you break your (L) item and sell the remainder of it to the TT, it then enters the loot system again and is looted by another person.

Think about it for a minute. Take a 100 PED (L) item as an example... think about what happens the moment you loot it.

100 PED is subtracted from the loot system and transfers to Player Held funds because you now have a 100 PED TT item. Whether you sell it or use it doesn’t matter. If you TT it then it just returns to the loot system and will be looted again. Once someone uses that (L) item PED is subtracted from Player Held funds and is pure gross profit for MindArk.

Think about the flow of money in order

Deposit = Transfer to Player Held Funds
Buy Ammo = Still Player held funds
Burn Ammo = Transfer to loot system
Loot (L) Item = Transfer to Player Held Funds
Decay (L) Item = Money leaves EU and is Gross Profit for MA
Standard decay = Money leaves EU and is Gross Profit for MA
Repeat over and over = Empty Ped Card
Empty Ped Card = Deposit

Its a vicious cycle. We as players try to minimize every expense in order to have fun while trying to at least break even or find that lucky loot.

And Hardwrath i have differnt veiws on the current pvp system, and how it can be improved. and you might not like it. but currently i do not beleive with the oil rig in itself in opperation under current conditions makes for good pvp. there really isnt that much fighting over it at this time and it is only up for grabs to those with the biggest bankroll. Not that this is wrong. but it doesnt make for very balenced PVP. Like in other games not mentioned they seperate the lower level players into brackets and let them battle it out.

I would like to hear your ideas about PvP. Remember though PvP is always a "may the best man win scenario" and not something that spoon feeds lower level players with money.

Under (L) weapons feeding the loot pool it makes sence, if you use a (UL) weapon you seem to not get as much loot return imo. butwhen you use (L) you do, imo.

I am certain that (L) decay does not feed the loot system. It’s pure gross profit for MA just like normal decay.

 

[HardWrath]

some new ideas could in fact help the loot pool. something balenced.

I totally agree with this point.

I am totally convinced that MindArk is not balancing things as well as they could be.

PKers are fully willing to spend PED and get nothing in return while doing so. Meanwhile they are dumping PED into the loot system for everyone while also creating decay for MindArk to count as Gross Profit.

PvP is something that First Planet Company needs to dramatically expand on.

PvP isn’t something that they can just implement 1 new thing or system to dramatically improve it. It has to be lots of things and lots of systems. It needs a comprehensive overhaul.

 

[King Gabriel]

How the heck we can control loot pool? How we can get awesome loot when we want it?

 

[HardWrath]

How the heck we can control loot pool? How we can get awesome loot when we want it?

The way we can control the loot system is to get First Planet Company to implement systems and features that will bring more balance to the loot.

Throughout EF I have submitted idea after idea. The bulk of the time I make sure to point those things out to MA or FPC.

 

[Zane]

How the heck we can control loot pool? How we can get awesome loot when we want it?

No one knows. If anyone knew, this game either would be over, or the loot algorithms would have been updated.

 

[Huskie]

Hardwrath, the main issue with that ammo theory, is:

1)Why would it even be there?
2)How would it translate to all other professions?

It's much easier to implement and control a universal algorithm that dictates return ratio per PEDs cycled, for all activities that net returns. Occam's razor at it's best.

Another big question is (not related to the ammo vs decay theory, though): would PEDs used on decay on things that only generate skills but no tangible returns, like beautician, armor decay, healing, etc. be accounted for in such an algorithm to be returned back to the player to keep his universal spendings around that ratio, or only the ones directly spent on activities that net tangible returns other than skills?

 

[Lorespade]

Hardwrath you just said on the (L) items it did not feed the loot pool, and did feed the loot pool.

I beleive in a way both statements are correct, bare with my explanation.

The total TT value of useable (L) range decays, but the non useable (L) TT value is the aspect that re enters the loot pool.

Its kinda a complex kinda deul system MA has "in my openion i could be wrong"

Yeah the decay does go to MA with the remander to the economy. Normal items dont do that, yet normal items can be converted to the loot pool at any point. but (L) ones are forced to go back into the loot pool after use.

so kinda 50/50 in a way.

But also to think of it and melee weapons, melee weapons appear to be pure decay but obviously are not, so (L) items might have a little of this decay/lootpool thing going on. but to say that that it is pure profit might be streaching it a little.


And also to respond to the pvp aspect, Yes i totally beleive PVP is the best man wins. and should not feed a noob that has no right to to seek rewards with out a little imput into the system.

That being said, what of the noob that does go and trys, to only receive nothing? he may not be the best man butif he does make the effort to make some of the nessisary investments, but not the huge ones, does he deserve nothing in return?

now dont get me wrong the bigger the weapon the more the PVP feeds the loot pool, but no returns for a commoneer, just trying seems a little too one sided.

I like that you when you go into the rig you are unarmored. someone has a chance to take you down. until you bring out that big fucking gun lol.

that gun changes things, but the varible is a group of people can possibly take you out. You in a way make it more fair being unarmored. regardless of your BFG. lol

Does that mean everyone should do the same. no. does that place a needed balence, not really but it is getting close.

Lootable PVP zones and zones that are not involved in objective based PVP, should be the areas where no gear restrictions. but as for the Rig, balence might be needed, where skill can win, and gear takes a back seat. the better man should win, but the better man can still get swarmed by a few lesser individuals useing team tactics. brings into play the Overpowered vs underpowered. there is a way to find a balence but some things must be gained by one side and some things lost by the other.

these are only my openions. I do however have a great deal of experience in Objective based PVP. and the best man will almost always win, but there will always be flukes where he does in fact lose. once we find that we will have balence in pvp.