Are TT returns influenced under skill pill use?

[atomicstorm]

Loot cycles are much bigger than 30 days. It's so hard for some people to accept the fact that month to month loot will be different that they come up with the craziest shit just so they can feed their denial and allow them to play the victim and no amount of tests and data will change their beliefs. Don't fall in this trap, guys.
My experience with the skill pills was on the other side, my returns were above my overall average and sometimes even tt profit but I still don't think there's a connection.

Pretty rich coming from you.

--------------
As for Una, my disposition has always been that I was testing the theory. I've said nothing to either side. I've been tracking for 4 months thus far and will probably need several months. As with anything, you do certain activities at your own risk. When the test concludes, I will share my results - as I always do. As for the "I've seen the contrary" behavior. I can't tell you how many times I have had people tell me quite the opposite. There's been probably over 3 dozen people messaging me asking me about my findings. There are people on both sides of observing this issue.

The ped value comment you made earlier (I can't multi quote on this shit forum), is a distinction without a difference. In your skill ledger, you are given points that equate to a TT value. The TT value is extracted by ESI so that you can perform an action on it, usually selling for a markup. This does not negate the fact that you are getting TT value to your avatar. You are just not being allowed to immediately sell it to recoup losses.

The reality is, until tests are done or concluded, for which no one has actually done, no one really knows and you are engaging in said activities at your own risk. Like everything else because, after all, this entire game is a black box.

 

[atomicstorm]

Even few months its not enough. There are period of multi and not. When i gave the example up i had good returns like 1,5-2 months (this period i used 75/125% skill bonus) then next month 91.6% (but here i cant complain since im lower on robot looter and 60k hp robots helped with the tt loss ) and its been 2 months now without any multis and any decent runs. I tell you what, use skill pill in a good period, nothing will change )

I waited 2.5 minutes to quote on this shithole of a forum (fix the damn thing), to post that in my experience in tracking, this would be the behavior I would expect if skill value counted in loot. This particular "additional variance" that I have seen is what led me to start the test to begin with. What I was seeing was this ebb and flow that was clearly abnormal. Anyone who has followed or seen my spreadsheets knows that the "just keep shooting" mantra has not applied to my avatar for the 4 years I have tracked hardcore (I lost my previous years data :sadface.

It's my last addendum to my comments since this forum operates like geocities at the end of it's life. But I look forward to sharing my results; to those who want to actually see them and not throw stones in their glass houses.

Notice how some particular people are so quick to assume various aspects of the test and my "journey". Testing a hypothesis is the backbone of science.

 

[UnaAlconbury]

As for the "I've seen the contrary" behavior. I can't tell you how many times I have had people tell me quite the opposite. There's been probably over 3 dozen people messaging me asking me about my findings. There are people on both sides of observing this issue.

I wasn't saying that "I've seen the contrary" in terms of looking at tt returns over a certain amount of months. As you say you will always have a shitload of people on either side with that with more or (often) less quality data. I was saying it has been shown skill pills does not affect tt return using same method Zho used for his looter and efficiency studies. Analyzing multiplier data distribution groupings. It returned same results with AND without skill pill.

The ped value comment you made earlier (I can't multi quote on this shit forum), is a distinction without a difference. In your skill ledger, you are given points that equate to a TT value. The TT value is extracted by ESI so that you can perform an action on it, usually selling for a markup. This does not negate the fact that you are getting TT value to your avatar. You are just not being allowed to immediately sell it to recoup losses.

I mean you could say a skill reward of what MA phrases 10 ped Anatomy will do to your skills what inserting a 10 ped Anatomy skill implant would, sure. But at that very moment, it has lost its TT value and you would need a new ESI to add TT to it again. In other words MA is not handing you any TT value. They don't take anything out their pockets that would need compensation (through lowered tt returns while using skill pill, for example). That's the important detail in this discussion. Your account total TT value does not go up when you skill, get a skill reward or insert a skill chip. I am pretty sure you would agree with that? I am actually a bit surprised you don't look at it this way seeing you are normally pretty sound with your ledger talk on these forums.

 

[siremi]

There is a clear distinction between when chipping in vs. when gaining skills naturally (pill or not)

Chipping in
- ESI e.g. of 10 tt is burned, the skill is added to avatar (and locked)
- avatar account value (items tt + skills tt) does not change, e.g. 10 tt input, 10 tt output
- the 10% fee has already been paid by the user that chipped out

Chipping out
- ESI is burned (10% withdrawal fee) to UNLOCK the skill value. The Skill enters the RCE by using the unlock item (ESI) and a new item is IMPRINTED into the economy (a skill chip)
- avatar account value (items tt + skills tt) changes, e.g. 10 tt input, 9 tt output (1 PED is paid as unlock fee to game)
- A NEW ITEM is created and enters the RCE => a "9 PED TT SKILL CHIP"
- just for giggles, but you can repeat this process at infinite, burning all the SKILL value in the process (using the 10% fee)

Skilling naturally (w/w.o pills)
- no ESI is burned
- utility (locked value) is created by DECAY (cycle). The input is PED, materials, etc. The output is LOOT + SKILL (totalling to 100% input)
- avatar account value (items tt + skills tt) does not change, e.g. LOOT is paid ~=98%, skill is paid and LOCKED (~=2%)
- it is quite POSSIBLE that skill value gained while using a PILL will increase the default SKILL (~=2%) and reduce the default LOOT (~=98%), e.g. a 50% skill pill might make these LOOT ~=97% and SKILL ~=3% (but it is very hard to test this due to big variance in the loot system). If you are concerned about a 1% (50% skill pill) or 2% (100% skill pill) hit to your LOOT, then you should not use skill pills. Silly note (if you're concerned about this, you should definitely not be hunting skilling mobs, just because that 2% can easily be way more as some creature params make them a natural 300% skill boost. The people hunting these don't do it for the tt return.)
- The end utility (value) is 100%, and does not change. This is what makes the game skill based and different then a luck based game.


Codex and Pills
- avatar account value (items tt + skills tt) changes (but only VIRTUALLY, it's an unrealized change), (bringing perceived value over 100%)
- some skills e.g. CODEX or PILL or Defence may be considered as BONUS and might not be deducted from LOOT (this is not yet known and needs more testing). Because the SKILL is LOCKED and needs an unlock item (e.g. ESI) to become an imprinted chip (enter the economy), it does not matter for the game. The user will still pay 10% fee for imprinting (unlocking) the bonus value.


Other notes
- by controlling the supply of ESI, the game ensures there is no bank run on the locked value
- once cycled and turned into skills, the locked value can be instantly accessible to the game developers (skill, soul bound items, Galactica)
-> (this pool of locked value can be used for anything, e.g. marketing, bonus loot pool, events, withdrawals, etc.)
-> this is also why users need to cycle more and why events are so cycle oriented. Cycling is a core mechanic with skills as by-product that locks value and provides a reliable source of income for the game.
- to be unlocked, the skill value requires the same tt (the skill value in each avatar account is a VIRTUAL representation of the TT value) and when looking at an account from a ROI perspective without looking at both items and skills does not make sense.

Conclusion
We may never know what the game uses the locked value for, but we do know some of it is returned in loot (the bonus loot pools) and some of it may possibly be returned to you, either as bonus or in the form of monthly or yearly balancing loots.

Safe to say that it is up to each person to make their own choices and set your objective in game the way you want it to be, either focus on skilling or anything else you want.

Good Luck!

 

[PreyNaika]

There is a clear distinction between when chipping in vs. when gaining skills naturally (pill or not)

Chipping in
- ESI e.g. of 10 tt is burned, the skill is added to avatar (and locked)
- avatar account value (items tt + skills tt) does not change, e.g. 10 tt input, 10 tt output
- the 10% fee has already been paid by the user that chipped out

Chipping out
- ESI is burned (10% withdrawal fee) to UNLOCK the skill value. The Skill enters the RCE by using the unlock item (ESI) and a new item is IMPRINTED into the economy (a skill chip)
- avatar account value (items tt + skills tt) changes, e.g. 10 tt input, 9 tt output (1 PED is paid as unlock fee to game)
- A NEW ITEM is created and enters the RCE => a "9 PED TT SKILL CHIP"
- just for giggles, but you can repeat this process at infinite, burning all the SKILL value in the process (using the 10% fee)

Skilling naturally (w/w.o pills)
- no ESI is burned
- utility (locked value) is created by DECAY (cycle). The input is PED, materials, etc. The output is LOOT + SKILL (totalling to 100% input)
- avatar account value (items tt + skills tt) does not change, e.g. LOOT is paid ~=98%, skill is paid and LOCKED (~=2%)
- it is quite POSSIBLE that skill value gained while using a PILL will increase the default SKILL (~=2%) and reduce the default LOOT (~=98%), e.g. a 50% skill pill might make these LOOT ~=97% and SKILL ~=3% (but it is very hard to test this due to big variance in the loot system). If you are concerned about a 1% (50% skill pill) or 2% (100% skill pill) hit to your LOOT, then you should not use skill pills. Silly note (if you're concerned about this, you should definitely not be hunting skilling mobs, just because that 2% can easily be way more as some creature params make them a natural 300% skill boost. The people hunting these don't do it for the tt return.)
- The end utility (value) is 100%, and does not change. This is what makes the game skill based and different then a luck based game.


Codex and Pills
- avatar account value (items tt + skills tt) changes (but only VIRTUALLY, it's an unrealized change), (bringing perceived value over 100%)
- some skills e.g. CODEX or PILL or Defence may be considered as BONUS and might not be deducted from LOOT (this is not yet known and needs more testing). Because the SKILL is LOCKED and needs an unlock item (e.g. ESI) to become an imprinted chip (enter the economy), it does not matter for the game. The user will still pay 10% fee for imprinting (unlocking) the bonus value.


Other notes
- by controlling the supply of ESI, the game ensures there is no bank run on the locked value
- once cycled and turned into skills, the locked value can be instantly accessible to the game developers (skill, soul bound items, Galactica)
-> (this pool of locked value can be used for anything, e.g. marketing, bonus loot pool, events, withdrawals, etc.)
-> this is also why users need to cycle more and why events are so cycle oriented. Cycling is a core mechanic with skills as by-product that locks value and provides a reliable source of income for the game.
- to be unlocked, the skill value requires the same tt (the skill value in each avatar account is a VIRTUAL representation of the TT value) and when looking at an account from a ROI perspective without looking at both items and skills does not make sense.

Conclusion
We may never know what the game uses the locked value for, but we do know some of it is returned in loot (the bonus loot pools) and some of it may possibly be returned to you, either as bonus or in the form of monthly or yearly balancing loots.

Safe to say that it is up to each person to make their own choices and set your objective in game the way you want it to be, either focus on skilling or anything else you want.

Good Luck!

Thanks , was not able to find words to explain this. You did it well

 

[Simpleton]

125% with skill pill from event earlier this year

Ok, didn't know skill pills went that high. Highest I have seen is 100%

Also thought skill pills didn't stack.

 

[Simpleton]

There is a clear distinction between when chipping in vs. when gaining skills naturally (pill or not)

Chipping in
- ESI e.g. of 10 tt is burned, the skill is added to avatar (and locked)
- avatar account value (items tt + skills tt) does not change, e.g. 10 tt input, 10 tt output
- the 10% fee has already been paid by the user that chipped out

Chipping out
- ESI is burned (10% withdrawal fee) to UNLOCK the skill value. The Skill enters the RCE by using the unlock item (ESI) and a new item is IMPRINTED into the economy (a skill chip)
- avatar account value (items tt + skills tt) changes, e.g. 10 tt input, 9 tt output (1 PED is paid as unlock fee to game)
- A NEW ITEM is created and enters the RCE => a "9 PED TT SKILL CHIP"
- just for giggles, but you can repeat this process at infinite, burning all the SKILL value in the process (using the 10% fee)

Skilling naturally (w/w.o pills)
- no ESI is burned
- utility (locked value) is created by DECAY (cycle). The input is PED, materials, etc. The output is LOOT + SKILL (totalling to 100% input)
- avatar account value (items tt + skills tt) does not change, e.g. LOOT is paid ~=98%, skill is paid and LOCKED (~=2%)
- it is quite POSSIBLE that skill value gained while using a PILL will increase the default SKILL (~=2%) and reduce the default LOOT (~=98%), e.g. a 50% skill pill might make these LOOT ~=97% and SKILL ~=3% (but it is very hard to test this due to big variance in the loot system). If you are concerned about a 1% (50% skill pill) or 2% (100% skill pill) hit to your LOOT, then you should not use skill pills. Silly note (if you're concerned about this, you should definitely not be hunting skilling mobs, just because that 2% can easily be way more as some creature params make them a natural 300% skill boost. The people hunting these don't do it for the tt return.)
- The end utility (value) is 100%, and does not change. This is what makes the game skill based and different then a luck based game.


Codex and Pills
- avatar account value (items tt + skills tt) changes (but only VIRTUALLY, it's an unrealized change), (bringing perceived value over 100%)
- some skills e.g. CODEX or PILL or Defence may be considered as BONUS and might not be deducted from LOOT (this is not yet known and needs more testing). Because the SKILL is LOCKED and needs an unlock item (e.g. ESI) to become an imprinted chip (enter the economy), it does not matter for the game. The user will still pay 10% fee for imprinting (unlocking) the bonus value.


Other notes
- by controlling the supply of ESI, the game ensures there is no bank run on the locked value
- once cycled and turned into skills, the locked value can be instantly accessible to the game developers (skill, soul bound items, Galactica)
-> (this pool of locked value can be used for anything, e.g. marketing, bonus loot pool, events, withdrawals, etc.)
-> this is also why users need to cycle more and why events are so cycle oriented. Cycling is a core mechanic with skills as by-product that locks value and provides a reliable source of income for the game.
- to be unlocked, the skill value requires the same tt (the skill value in each avatar account is a VIRTUAL representation of the TT value) and when looking at an account from a ROI perspective without looking at both items and skills does not make sense.

Conclusion
We may never know what the game uses the locked value for, but we do know some of it is returned in loot (the bonus loot pools) and some of it may possibly be returned to you, either as bonus or in the form of monthly or yearly balancing loots.

Safe to say that it is up to each person to make their own choices and set your objective in game the way you want it to be, either focus on skilling or anything else you want.

Good Luck!

Can someone point me to the source of 98% tt return in hunting?

Also, what if you gain less tt skill than 2%? e.g. 1%? do you then get 99% tt return?

 

[siremi]

Can someone point me to the source of 98% tt return in hunting?

Also, what if you gain less tt skill than 2%? e.g. 1%? do you then get 99% tt return?

here:

Entropia Universe - Developer Notes #14 - Loot 2.0 Update

One of MindArk’s primary long-term goals is to make Entropia Universe as affordable and entertaining as possible for all participants. Toward that end

www.entropiauniverse.com

for more info, look into looter vs. efficiency thread

 

[Baldurn]

In my opinion there is no chance that skills by themselves have any TT value or would be compensated in any way by MA either in their balance sheet or if they liquidate your account. The only way you can make them have a TT value is by substituting them for another item (ESI) which in essence makes skills have either 0 TT (default) or -10% TT of the ESI effectively due to the decay of the ESI when extracting. I have played several months in a row with 100% pills and several months in a row with only 10% pills and there is no difference in my tt return (although I guess this could be within normal variance). TT is only used as a unit of measure of skills since we are not getting absolute numbers as reward (such as via attribute tokens) or when transferring skills between avatars.

 

[Simpleton]

here:

Entropia Universe - Developer Notes #14 - Loot 2.0 Update

One of MindArk’s primary long-term goals is to make Entropia Universe as affordable and entertaining as possible for all participants. Toward that end

www.entropiauniverse.com

for more info, look into looter vs. efficiency thread

Thank you

Those results were for a temporary test before the introduction of looter professions. I would say those numbers dont apply anymore and the only real takeaway from those notes is that MA is continually adjusting tt returns.

Always observed my tt returns as a function of looter and efficiency, from the low 90s% in the beginning with trash gear to what it is today. Doesnt matter if it is good skilling mob or bad skilling mob. If skillgains would effect tt returns, it would have been very obvious.

At the end of the day, we can all test and get results but remember that MA can always silently change things which invalidates previous test results.

 

[Sirhc]

I've not noticed any difference in loot returns whether I'm running with a skill pill or not. Now chasing Codex is another story. I've probably hunted certain mobs longer than I should given the feedback I'm seeing just to move to the next mob and meta level. That hurts ye ole ped card at times so my goals can come at a price if I'm not paying attention or being stubborn.

 

[Vonny]

In my opinion there is no chance that skills by themselves have any TT value or would be compensated in any way by MA either in their balance sheet or if they liquidate your account.

According to the ToU that we all agree to every time we log in;


5. Account Inactivity, Account Ban and Account Termination


5.1. Definitions


The following terms referred to in this paragraph will have the following meaning:


Terminated Account (or “Account Termination”) means that the Account is purged and that You will no longer be able to retrieve its contents or to re-activate it to access Entropia Universe. Purging the Account means that, when applicable, all skills will be deleted, any estate deeds will be transferred back to MindArk and/or MindArk's Partner and the virtual objects on the Account will be exchanged for their Trade Terminal (TT) value. The aggregated value will be added to the balance on the PED Card connected to Your Account for You to withdraw if exceeding the minimal withdrawal limit of 1 000 PED

I'm not sure that I would want to count my skills as having value when MA will not give me a tt value if they terminate my account for some reason.

 

[Baldurn]

According to the ToU that we all agree to every time we log in;


5. Account Inactivity, Account Ban and Account Termination


5.1. Definitions


The following terms referred to in this paragraph will have the following meaning:


Terminated Account (or “Account Termination”) means that the Account is purged and that You will no longer be able to retrieve its contents or to re-activate it to access Entropia Universe. Purging the Account means that, when applicable, all skills will be deleted, any estate deeds will be transferred back to MindArk and/or MindArk's Partner and the virtual objects on the Account will be exchanged for their Trade Terminal (TT) value. The aggregated value will be added to the balance on the PED Card connected to Your Account for You to withdraw if exceeding the minimal withdrawal limit of 1 000 PED

I'm not sure that I would want to count my skills as having value when MA will not give me a tt value if they terminate my account for some reason.

Nice catch I think it is yet another argument why skills have no TT value

 

[Suza]

Had a thought, and wanted to see if any members of the community had any hard data to share.

Do TT returns decrease while utilizing skill pills? The idea here is that skill gains represent a form of TT return that gets the player up to 100% return. In my opinion, I believe that's why a player gains more skills early - they have to be given more skills by MA for MA to argue to regulators that the game isn't gambling. Then, as your looter skills improve and your TT returns improve, less skills are "given" as a consequence since less is needed to "equalize 100%". Skill gains decrease exponentially relative to TT amount spent over time.

So, if skill gain is a function of TT return equalling up to 100%, does using skill pills (which increases TT skill returns for same ped spent) decrease loot returns?

Pretty sure this has probably been addressed before by Zho or maybe Yazuki in his log, but couldn't find it so putting this here. Let the name-calling begin for a simple question

You have a fallacy in your thinking here, as like any MMO, the 'experience' needed to gain higher and higher levels always increases.

That said think about it like this:
at 0 skill, 1 ped increase = 459
at 1000 skill, 1 ped increase = 152 skill
At 2000 skill, 1 ped increase = 63 skill

Thus, the same 'value' of skill received has the illusion of being less due to it taking more 'value' the higher you get.

Skills also have a multiplier, thus every skill hit will not be the same "value"