FYI: Definitive loot pool answer

[Witte]

well the lotteryinspektion dont agree with you on that it seems. the system isnt known to us, and it does look pseudo random as you say. But still they passed the inspection.

But not for the reason you say, obviously.

 

[Witte]

Well, we forgot an important factor, something you won't have in a "pseudo-casino" - it is possible to come out ahead if you include markup in your calculations, but the gambling commission won't care about this, as this is only player-to-player business and doesn't really affect the system provided by MA.

I left markup out deliberately because it only makes thing more complicated . The markup kinda backfires on the personal loot pool idea, as it introduces luck right back in. I think for the lottery inspection it doesn't matter if a winning is in markup or in cold cash. Comparable with winning a car in a lottery. Although EU is a bit of a unique case, so not very sure about it.

Anyway, I think that my point that the issue is not all black and white has come through. We may not agree, but in the end all we have are opinions.

 

[psychnosiz]

from your skill to the current state of the ingame economy
Duh ... nothing new here.

 

[wizzszz]

I left markup out deliberately because it only makes thing more complicated . The markup kinda backfires on the personal loot pool idea, as it introduces luck right back in. I think for the lottery inspection it doesn't matter if a winning is in markup or in cold cash. Comparable with winning a car in a lottery. Although EU is a bit of a unique case, so not very sure about it.

Anyway, I think that my point that the issue is not all black and white has come through. We may not agree, but in the end all we have are opinions.

Yes, you are right, that's why i left out markup, too - i just mentioned it because it would make a difference to your pseudo-casino model here, and that in general, you can win from the system when you include markup.

 

[Legion]

I left markup out deliberately because it only makes thing more complicated . The markup kinda backfires on the personal loot pool idea, as it introduces luck right back in. I think for the lottery inspection it doesn't matter if a winning is in markup or in cold cash. Comparable with winning a car in a lottery. Although EU is a bit of a unique case, so not very sure about it.

Anyway, I think that my point that the issue is not all black and white has come through. We may not agree, but in the end all we have are opinions.

according to them it's due to skill and knowledge is needed.

 

[DarkFire]

according to them it's due to skill and knowledge is needed.

Not specific enough.
Though you do have to interpret it pretty hard to twist it into "It's because loss is guaranteed, unless you get picked for promotional reasons, in which case you are also not lucky" IMHO.

"Skills" could mean the ability to aim at a mob and fire, or get a blueprint and the right components and use them in a crafting machine.
Or it could mean that ingame skills influence your efficiency.
Or it could mean that ingame skills have value but are never "gambled", only gained, bought or sold.

"Knowledge" could be knowing the basics about how you play the game and what options you have.
It could be knowledge of the ingame economy and market.
Or it could be knowledge of item/mob/area stats, eg eco/dmg type/mineral types.

So i'm still looking forward to a more detailed reply from them to Wittes question

 

[Legion]

Not specific enough.
Though you do have to interpret it pretty hard to twist it into "It's because loss is guaranteed, unless you get picked for promotional reasons, in which case you are also not lucky" IMHO.

"Skills" could mean the ability to aim at a mob and fire, or get a blueprint and the right components and use them in a crafting machine.
Or it could mean that ingame skills influence your efficiency.
Or it could mean that ingame skills have value but are never "gambled", only gained, bought or sold.

"Knowledge" could be knowing the basics about how you play the game and what options you have.
It could be knowledge of the ingame economy and market.
Or it could be knowledge of item/mob/area stats, eg eco/dmg type/mineral types.

So i'm still looking forward to a more detailed reply from them to Wittes question

yes it could mean some of those things, but from my followup question to them some can be removed.

getting the blueprint one is one, getting a blueprint like that would be random ie gambling so not skill there.
ingame skills have a value true they do have that but items values in the game has nothing to do with if the game is gambling or not.
Also the knowledge part for knowing the market is the same as item values etc.

As for the knowledge of items and where a mob is and so on in my eyes can be removed aswell. As that info is not really knowledge in such a way that is has a major impact sort of. However if as macro has hinted that certain tools produce certain results on a certain mob that could make it into knowledge though.

 

[DarkFire]

getting the blueprint one is one, getting a blueprint like that would be random ie gambling so not skill there.

Well my post left room for interpretion as well
"Getting" could be simply buying from tech, auction or player.

ingame skills have a value true they do have that but items values in the game has nothing to do with if the game is gambling or not.
Also the knowledge part for knowing the market is the same as item values etc.

Well i'm not entirely sure if the gambling authorities look at the loss/profit of MA or the loss/profit of players. Markup and skills makes that two seperate things. This is another thing i would like answered.

As for the knowledge of items and where a mob is and so on in my eyes can be removed aswell. As that info is not really knowledge in such a way that is has a major impact sort of. However if as macro has hinted that certain tools produce certain results on a certain mob that could make it into knowledge though.

Knowing where mobs are might not matter (or then again it might, if you also know that they're dropping good stuff )
But knowledge about mobs could also be their HP, regen speed, dmg type, dmg range, aggression level, movement speed, attack range and loot-table (items, not loot value).
That certain tools are better on certain mobs is an obvious fact. If you hunt trox with opalo you will know this

 

[GoNi]

ingame skills have a value true they do have that but items values in the game has nothing to do with if the game is gambling or not.

Really?

Look at it from TT value perspectives!

If you fill a 10 PED ESI, you get a 10 PED skillchip!
Its still 10 PED TT value, so the skill itselfs doesn´t have any value if you look at TT values.

The value is only the markup, you may get for it!

 

[Legion]

Well my post left room for interpretion as well
"Getting" could be simply buying from tech, auction or player.

Well i'm not entirely sure if the gambling authorities look at the loss/profit of MA or the loss/profit of players. Markup and skills makes that two seperate things. This is another thing i would like answered.

Knowing where mobs are might not matter (or then again it might, if you also know that they're dropping good stuff )
But knowledge about mobs could also be their HP, regen speed, dmg type, dmg range, aggression level, movement speed, attack range and loot-table (items, not loot value).
That certain tools are better on certain mobs is an obvious fact. If you hunt trox with opalo you will know this

Well bying anything in any shape or form in eu has nothing to do with if it's gambling or not.

From my understanding they dont look at the profits at all. Except that the law says that if you can win more than you put in it's a lottery. Unless there is skill involved. As for the markup etc it doesnt matter. If you "win" something and then sell it it's still a lottery, markup has nothing to do with that. (that's what the lotteryinspection said)
And also knowing what a mob drops is just as the same above, tt or markup has nothing to do with if it's gambling.

Really?

Look at it from TT value perspectives!

If you fill a 10 PED ESI, you get a 10 PED skillchip!
Its still 10 PED TT value, so the skill itselfs doesn´t have any value if you look at TT values.

The value is only the markup, you may get for it!

Not sure what your getting at, but the lotteryinspection said that the items has nothing to do with it, or their value etc.

 

[wizzszz]

If you fill a 10 PED ESI, you get a 10 PED skillchip!

Actually, you get a 9 PED skillchip, 10% are lost (after you chipped skills onto the chip, so 10% of the skills are lost, too)

 

[Joat]

Some thoughts of mine about the subject.
I think the system has several layers, that must be combined.
When we get the perfect combination, we also get a payout that is maxed.
One layer is personal, based on avatars stats (including equipment used),
another is region based, next is mob based, and so on.

Too complex? Nope.

Every spawn is a "spawncluster", meaning every mob isn't on a individual
spawn point, it's controlled of a larger "spawncluster".
There can be several "spawnclusters" in same area. Look at Boorum spawn,
there are (at least were) three "spawncluster".

The boostsystem (globals) are moved in a scheme and activate
these "spawnclusters" due to certain conditions (time, max amount of
boosted loots, and whatever rule that fits the system) making them open
for players to grab. There are absolutly no garantuee to get a global
while these "spawnclusters" are active. The personal layer must also be
active for boosted payout.

Now, remember that a lot of calculations can be reduced by using dynamic
code.
So what might look complex, due to a lot of things has to be combined,
might actually be quite simple in the end.

This is just a small part of the whole system, so don't see these ideas as
the only thing that controll the loot. There are way more parts involved
imo...

 

[DarkFire]

Well bying anything in any shape or form in eu has nothing to do with if it's gambling or not.

From my understanding they dont look at the profits at all. Except that the law says that if you can win more than you put in it's a lottery.

This brings up another point i would like an answer from lotteryinspection on; is your winnings what you loot or what you withdraw? Do they consider PED paper-money until it's exchanged for real world currency?
And another thing, if that's what the law says, then EU is gambling by law. Unless buying mining gear in the tt and using it is considered "skill".
I know your argument that skills can hint at where loot might be (which you've yet to convince me of ), but since using/knowing that "system" not *required* to win more than you put in, it might as well be random, and the point of it is kinda lost.

The simple answer is that buying mining gear in the tt and using it *is* considered "skill".

...

Can you code it?

 

[Joat]

Can you code it?

Nope, can't code it. If I learned to code, maybe...
I do know how the logic, and what parts that are in a ordinary carengine,
but that doesn't mean I know all tools needed and how they are used to
create all parts... If I learned to use them, maybe...

 

[aridash]

folks, past 3-4 pages you seem to still be talking off topic about gambling. its an entirly seperate issue, gambling can be pooled like a lottery or non-pooled like roulette. and Legions email some where from the Lottery inspector has covered why, in their opinion (and its the one that matters), its passes their rules as silly as their responce might seem. move back to the pools, thats far more interesting topic.

Now, remember that a lot of calculations can be reduced by using dynamic code.
So what might look complex, due to a lot of things has to be combined,
might actually be quite simple in the end.

i like the layers concept and as said here, it just needs to look more complex than it is, but the underlying system is bound to be simple. it has to cope with thousands of online avatars, with potentially hundreds of simultaneous loot events, yet be flexible and controled at the same time. a pooled system makes more sence and matches observable trends. why do popular mobs global more often and with higher amounts, if its not because the player base is filling their pool (or layer of the system)? how about when a mob in one area is hot, while in another nothing seems to happen, is that not suggesting an area pool?

 

[Joat]

This brings up another point i would like an answer from lotteryinspection on; is your winnings what you loot or what you withdraw? Do they consider PED paper-money until it's exchanged for real world currency?
And another thing, if that's what the law says, then EU is gambling by law. Unless buying mining gear in the tt and using it is considered "skill".
I know your argument that skills can hint at where loot might be (which you've yet to convince me of ), but since using/knowing that "system" not *required* to win more than you put in, it might as well be random, and the point of it is kinda lost.

The simple answer is that buying mining gear in the tt and using it *is* considered "skill".

I think Lotteryinspection looks at how the loot is created, if we can't
controll it in any way by help of knowledge of how, when, what and so on,
it's seen as gambling.
If we can get loot by knowledge, it isn't seen as gambling.

When it's about ingame vs withdraw, thats a question for the taxauthority.

 

[Witte]

i like the layers concept and as said here, it just needs to look more complex than it is, but the underlying system is bound to be simple. it has to cope with thousands of online avatars, with potentially hundreds of simultaneous loot events, yet be flexible and controled at the same time. a pooled system makes more sence and matches observable trends. why do popular mobs global more often and with higher amounts, if its not because the player base is filling their pool (or layer of the system)? how about when a mob in one area is hot, while in another nothing seems to happen, is that not suggesting an area pool?

Yet this can easily be done without pools. As for more hunting is more globals, more hunting can mean just a higher probability in a random system, so the result is more globals. As for hot and cold areas (if they exists), it could well be there is some slow changing random function at play here to, that determines if an area is hot or cold. I'd say none of the things we observe require a pool. It also would not make it more easy to develop or control.

IMO the only reason you really want to have a "pool" (expenses minus payout log) is to make sure that no more can go out than in. Since the costs in EU is variable, the payout probably is too. I suspect that when everone starts using very low efficient weapons, the loots will start to increase. Not sure if pool is an accurate discription though.

 

[Legion]

This brings up another point i would like an answer from lotteryinspection on; is your winnings what you loot or what you withdraw? Do they consider PED paper-money until it's exchanged for real world currency?
And another thing, if that's what the law says, then EU is gambling by law. Unless buying mining gear in the tt and using it is considered "skill".
I know your argument that skills can hint at where loot might be (which you've yet to convince me of ), but since using/knowing that "system" not *required* to win more than you put in, it might as well be random, and the point of it is kinda lost.

The simple answer is that buying mining gear in the tt and using it *is* considered "skill".

Your winnings are what you loot. As for the ped part i dont think they care about it at all, in the sence your talking about it here.
And if that is what the law says no then it's not gambling. Ie the system can be random but if you can determine stuff using skill it's not fully gambling and thus it passes. But making a random system would in my and my teachers eyes be not a very good way to do it. And if you consider buying a tt finder in the tt and then using it you gotta be a hell of an unskilled person ;P

 

[aridash]

Yet this can easily be done without pools

now thats fair point, it doesnt *need* pools. however the issue of random presents a problem with control, and you acknowledge the purpose of a pool at some level. once you bound your system (or subsystems), whatever you call that, multiplier maximums, pools, layers, it amounts to the same thing. you are probably right that "pool" isnt a accurate discription, more of conceptual model.

 

[Profit]

Your winnings are what you loot.

Wrong, you've "won" nothing until you withdraw.
PED isn't real currency until it's converted to real currency that is accepted at a bank, a real bank.
So "winnings" are not loot, rather, "winnings" are anything over and above what you deposited. This is why taxation of virtual assets is such a bitch for governments as theoretically, we could claim losses (atleast in countries like mine where Goods and Service Tax can be recouped on costs). This is something which I was enquiring about when compiling my financials a couple weeks ago.
This is the way it's seen by financial institutions.
The view of lottery regulators is not dictated by financial institutions and thus, the view of banks on the financials of virtual worlds holds no sway over whether or not said virtual world has a loot system deemed gambling.
PED has real world value, true. Therefore it can be gambled with.
Though in financial terms (as far as taxation authorities are currently positioned) PED is monopoly money, loot is monopoly money. Withdrawals are income.


ps: there doesn't have to be a lootpool, then again, what is the definition of a lootpool? A db of items available that are generated at certain benchmarks? If so, then it's only natural that it exists imo... I don't know for sure, but I doubt it exists in the way many view.
(note I said "imo" and "I don't know for sure"... take notes Legion )

 

[Legion]

Wrong, you've "won" nothing until you withdraw.

not according to the lotteryinspection.

 

[Profit]

Quotesomething where they said this.
I read the emails you posted, nothing like that was said. I've asked them, they haven't replied.
PS: lottery inspection has nothing to do with winnings as viewed by financial authorities (which is why I made the distinct seperation).

 

[Legion]

Quotesomething where they said this.
I read the emails you posted, nothing like that was said. I've asked them, they haven't replied.
PS: lottery inspection has nothing to do with winnings as viewed by financial authorities (which is why I made the distinct seperation).

they said in a followup question that markup value ie what you get after selling something is not determining anything if it's a lottery or not. I interpret that as it's the actuall action of looting that is considered the possible gambling part in that case.

 

[Profit]

Quote it.
You miss the importance of proof, in about 99% of your posts.


ps: markup wasn't mentioned once in anything I said, so I don't know why you bring it up now.

 

[JohnCapital]

Wrong, you've "won" nothing until you withdraw.
PED isn't real currency until it's converted to real currency that is accepted at a bank, a real bank.

So if I never cash my chips in after playing poker, (or simply always lose) it's not gambling?

 

[Profit]

So if I never cash my chips in after playing poker, (or simply always lose) it's not gambling?

Sorry, I seem to have confused...
You've won nothing (as far as financial institutions are concerned) until you convert winnings into currency.

I tried to be clear in my seperation of the two (financial and regulatory) but I obviously wasn't lol

I was referring to DarkFire's enquiry about winnings (and veered into taxation due to irl conversations lol) with that comment, not the gambling debate.. it's obvious to me that the professions in EU are gambling, but y'all know that hehe.

 

[JohnCapital]

Ah. No worries, Profit. Seems I didn't follow the discussion as close as I should have.

 

[Wolverine Queen]

The question is, does PED count as currency or game chips

 

[wizzszz]

Game chips ARE money - even won goods are counted with their monetary value, so the "won nothing until you withdraw/convert your chips to money" is completely wrong.

 

[Profit]

Maybe in Germany, but not here (NewZealand). Or Australia. Or the UK. Or Japan. Or... or....
And this is (more than) half the issue with regulating an international gambling platform, in so many different countries, with so many variations in law.


[edit]
Why I get involved in these convo's is beyond me... it always ends up at the same conclusion - none.