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Developer Notes #8

What is difference in killing same mob by using same gun or same chip in past and today?

Well we have probably more skils but we still need a lot more shoots and more killing time on same mob as was in past where weapons damage nad hp of mob was somehow balanced and we used to kill that mob in certain time and with certain number of shoots.
Between then and now MA incresed drasticaly hp of mobs and regen rate but all old guns, chips, blades are still same with dps from before so today we need a lot more shoots, more ammo, more decay - ie cost to kill increased a lot.
As that proces was gradual trought the years ppl got used on that too.
Except one thing - long time of killing proces is hardly acepted by anyone.
So we have solution.
As ppl aceppted to play and kill same mob on higher cost lets give to ppl something that will shorten killing time but with even higher cost as they have and here we come to enhancers, to costly pyrite, to wery expensive tiering, to crafting them with 30% success rate, to extra ammo consumption, to extra weapon decay and to not so clear info on how enhancers break - is info of enhancers usage stored on ava or on enhancers - do enhancers (wich change owners trught trade or auction) break faster because they were used before or random breaking is reset wich is already without that strong gambling element.

So today we have same weapon and same mob.
To kill it we deal damage in amount of mob hp from before + hp added trought years + regen raised trught years + expenses on enhancers, additional ammo, aditional decay to kill in same time as before.

You remeber introduction of no looters and raising mobs hp with excuse that we need more expenses to get full L item to drop - well that was better to let crafters to do instead.

I welcome that MA think to reduce enhancers breaking for 50% even if im not sure how you lower something wich is by MA words completly random.
That will reduce expenses on consumables what enhancers are.
Good, but we are still with ubnbalanced cost to kill wich was acumulated trought years by raising mobs regen, hp or changing mob stats and damage type and enviroment.
We wud need better UL weapons instead eh...
 
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qamori said:
I didnt see this one anywhere Max!
is this for the next Vu too? Send me a link please
Click to expand...

I'll have to dig, it's possible I'm remembering wrong.

What is mentioned in the OP is reducing the number of uses to gain in tier.

Edit: this is from Dev Notes 5

Bertha Bot said:
[h=3]Developer Notes #5[/h]One area where we have received lots of feedback concerns the item upgrade system. Most of the feedback and questions received by the MindArk support department relate to the speed at which items gain new tier intervals, and the cost of raising an item to the next tier level. We hope to address those concerns in this developers note article.

Tier Speed
Within the current system, tier progress is taking much longer than intended, in some cases by a large factor. The MindArk dev team has been testing new parameters for this system which will increase the speed at which unlimited items gain tiers, especially at higher tier levels.

Due to the delicate nature of the tier upgrade system, adjustments must be made carefully and tested thoroughly. Our goal is to complete such testing and implement the adjusted tier progress rates before the end of this year.

Tier Cost
We are also analysing the cost to increase the tier level of various items, and ensure that such costs are balanced and reasonable. Adjustments to the cost of tiering are even more delicate than those related to tier speed, and thus will require a longer period of testing before changes can be implemented.

Since Dev Notes 5, I think there have been some reductions in Tier costs on some items.




Originally Posted Here
Click to expand...

If memory serves correctly, there has been other mention of costs to tier elsewhere.


Dev Notes 5 was posted in Sept 2012. I suspect they have had ample time to do their testing.

There are no shortage of items in player's inventory that are frequently used and sitting at tier X.9 because taking it to the next tier level is cost prohibitive.

MA could examine options beyond tier 10. On that topic, an idea occurred to me. What if... At tier 10.9, instead of simply tier 11, there were a way to make your item into a new better item that starts a t tier 0.0 but with better stats then it had previously at tier 10.

...A Reworked Modified Fast Aid Pack SGA Edition :eyecrazy:

If you stop and think about it... It could be a great idea, especially because it removes that previous item from circulation, allowing for a new balancing mechanism and creating room for a new one to be looted somewhere, also it would help keep things interesting at the highest levels. Moreover, it would give people an even greater incentive to tier as quickly as possible.

Just think of what the value of any given item would be at high tier, compared to now, if there were a way to turn it into something better. No doubt the demand for such items would increase significantly.

With regard to that being a new balancing mechanism, and this is huge, it would for the first time provide a way for unlimited items to be consumed. Instead of an unlimited item being in game forever, its life cycle would inherently be finite.

We all want more unlimited items to be looted, right?

A lot of sis remember the original tiering system, right? In that system, there was a chance at losing your item completely. I've often wondered what MA's intention was and I've assumed they were trying to balance. Naturally after seem valuable items were lost forever, there was an uproar and the community rejected that idea.

I don't think anyone would complain about losing a tier 10 mod fap, or anything else, as long as the new item is at least slightly better.
 
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What you describe HW is what I would have thought the regular, adjusted, improved, modified should have followed... not something looted.

Regular At 10.9 + some rare components becomes Adjusted... 10.9 becomes Imp, etc. Yea, it would take forever.... but it is worth it in the long run.
 
atomicstorm said:
What you describe HW is what I would have thought the regular, adjusted, improved, modified should have followed... not something looted.

Regular At 10.9 + some rare components becomes Adjusted... 10.9 becomes Imp, etc. Yea, it would take forever.... but it is worth it in the long run.
Click to expand...

It's the only thing I've been able to think of that would balance long term.

The original Adj, Imp, Mod came out long before tiering was an option but I have always thought that there should be a process for players to convert their items to Adj, Imp, and Mod.

I agree with that you said though... regular would become Adj, then Adj would become Imp, Imp would become Mod, Mod would become Reworked Mod, etc and could then be followed by Hypercharged or whatever. It could keep going and going.

Ancient could follow the same model, just with Adj, Imp, and Mod in the name... Same with Adapted items.

So in the case of the existing Adj, Imp, and Mod faps, when an Adj gets converted to Imp, a new Adj could potentially loot somewhere. To put this into perspective, in two months of fairly heavy hunting, I took an Adj Fap from tier 3.2 to 3.5.... So that gives an idea of how long this all would take.

There also would be high demand for an (L) item that can be attached to your unl item in order to accelerate the tier speed... Tier Amps... Creating a whole new category of items for people to craft.
 
Ancient are exclusive for pre-gold items. It's like making them SGA or TEN. Those are past events can't roll back on those. On the other hand, adj->imp->mod->overcharged mod? ->hypercharged mod? this sort of make sense. Just add a new prefix. Anything like Hardwrath's idea. Doesn't need to move up the ladder from adj to imp to mod. Could be like Pimped Adj, Pimped Imp, Pimped Mod.
 
Bertha Bot said:
To further improve balance between limited and unlimited items, the consumption rate of enhancers attached to unlimited items will be reduced by 50% in Version Update 14.7, currently scheduled for May 13.
Click to expand...

May 13th today, I guess it has been delayed? :scratch2:
 
Yep i already started a thread about it. Wonder if someone got a explanation about the delay.
 
Dan59 said:
What is difference in killing same mob by using same gun or same chip in past and today?

Well we have probably more skils but we still need a lot more shoots and more killing time on same mob as was in past where weapons damage nad hp of mob was somehow balanced and we used to kill that mob in certain time and with certain number of shoots.
Between then and now MA incresed drasticaly hp of mobs and regen rate but all old guns, chips, blades are still same with dps from before so today we need a lot more shoots, more ammo, more decay - ie cost to kill increased a lot.
As that proces was gradual trought the years ppl got used on that too.
Except one thing - long time of killing proces is hardly acepted by anyone.
So we have solution.
As ppl aceppted to play and kill same mob on higher cost lets give to ppl something that will shorten killing time but with even higher cost as they have and here we come to enhancers, to costly pyrite, to wery expensive tiering, to crafting them with 30% success rate, to extra ammo consumption, to extra weapon decay and to not so clear info on how enhancers break - is info of enhancers usage stored on ava or on enhancers - do enhancers (wich change owners trught trade or auction) break faster because they were used before or random breaking is reset wich is already without that strong gambling element.

So today we have same weapon and same mob.
To kill it we deal damage in amount of mob hp from before + hp added trought years + regen raised trught years + expenses on enhancers, additional ammo, aditional decay to kill in same time as before.

You remeber introduction of no looters and raising mobs hp with excuse that we need more expenses to get full L item to drop - well that was better to let crafters to do instead.

I welcome that MA think to reduce enhancers breaking for 50% even if im not sure how you lower something wich is by MA words completly random.
That will reduce expenses on consumables what enhancers are.
Good, but we are still with ubnbalanced cost to kill wich was acumulated trought years by raising mobs regen, hp or changing mob stats and damage type and enviroment.
We wud need better UL weapons instead eh...
Click to expand...


Large wall of text. What I latched onto is that your tone indicates you are only aware of damage enhancers. Accuracy enhancers and economy enhancers increase dpp... then there are mining enhancers and range enhancers as well.

You also don't lose to regen.. you lose to decay. Killing a regen mob is like moving a slider in hunting towards condition.
 
There is no delay as they didnt say we have VU today, they merely mentioned they planned for today but u should know that almost always means it will be 1 or more week later :)
 
atomicstorm said:
Large wall of text. What I latched onto is that your tone indicates you are only aware of damage enhancers. Accuracy enhancers and economy enhancers increase dpp... then there are mining enhancers and range enhancers as well.

You also don't lose to regen.. you lose to decay. Killing a regen mob is like moving a slider in hunting towards condition.
Click to expand...

I gather resources for enhancers by mining and hunting, i also craft them and use them.
I also know how rare are some crafting parts drop for weapon economy enhancers for wich you ofc need L blue prints obtained with luck by crafting other types of enhancers. Their MU reflect all that.
Acuracy enhancers and other types were tested a lot by comunity and you can find a lot info in forum.


That large wall of thext have a title and is talking how much things changed from past to today.
It talk how number of shoots to kill a mob increased and time to kill it increased.
So if you need in average 5 or more shoots to kill same mob with same gun you used in past - time to kill logicaly increase and ofc cost to kill increase.
Only enhancer wich cud be helpfull to shorten killing process is damage enhancer and not acuracy or economy or minig enhancer as you mention
 
I agree with most of you Dan, but we don't need more powerful guns rather than improving the ones we have.

How about adding a bonus when reaching tier 10? Such as getting 1 or 5 more attack per min?
Being able to use 2 guns, swords, etc to get faster speed and less dmg since or what ever?
The list goes on... I would suggest tons of ideas when it comes to item upgrades

We need an upgrade and not new craps flooding marked and crashing MU on existing and old guns
 
I don't think that will help with longevity.

tbh I think adding damage types to mobs might be a more stable solution for a lot longer where some mobs will take damage from all weapons but others will only take it from blp, laser, explosive with less from other ammo types.

But it might not be the most popular option.
 
SpikeBlack said:
I don't think that will help with longevity.

tbh I think adding damage types to mobs might be a more stable solution for a lot longer where some mobs will take damage from all weapons but others will only take it from blp, laser, explosive with less from other ammo types.

But it might not be the most popular option.
Click to expand...
I would love it, i have all weapon skills more or less equal... but yeah, most ppl would prolly raise mutiny if damage resistances would be implemented. :)
 
They need new enhancers that do more than one thing that sacrifices something to gain significant effect with a twist of a minor negative effect kind of like the Berserker Helms.

10% range and 5% slower reload
10% range and 10% lower dmg
10% range and 20% lower crit chance
20% dmg and 5% lower range
20% dmg and 5% slower reload
20% dmg and 20% lower crit chance
10% faster reload and 5% lower range
10% faster reload and 10% lower dmg
10% faster reload and 20% lower crit chance
40% crit chance and 10% lower dmg
40% crit chance and 5% lower range
40% crit chance and 5% slower reload

I formulated this according to enhancers that already exist. (x2 benefit effect) + (x1 negative effect)
This allows players to farther expand and maximize the limited enhancer slots available.
Accuracy Enhancer 20%
Damage Enhancer 10%
Range Enhancer 5%
Reload Enhancer 5% (does not exist yet but should be added)

Can I get an Amen?
 
Angel said:
They need new enhancers that do more than one thing that sacrifices something to gain significant effect with a twist of a minor negative effect kind of like the Berserker Helms.

10% range and 5% slower reload
10% range and 10% lower dmg
10% range and 20% lower crit chance
20% dmg and 5% lower range
20% dmg and 5% slower reload
20% dmg and 20% lower crit chance
10% faster reload and 5% lower range
10% faster reload and 10% lower dmg
10% faster reload and 20% lower crit chance
40% crit chance and 10% lower dmg
40% crit chance and 5% lower range
40% crit chance and 5% slower reload

I formulated this according to enhancers that already exist. (x2 benefit effect) + (x1 negative effect)
This allows players to farther expand and maximize the limited enhancer slots available.
Accuracy Enhancer 20%
Damage Enhancer 10%
Range Enhancer 5%
Reload Enhancer 5% (does not exist yet but should be added)

Can I get an Amen?
Click to expand...
Amen :cool:
 
Angel said:
They need new enhancers that do more than one thing that sacrifices something to gain significant effect with a twist of a minor negative effect kind of like the Berserker Helms.

10% range and 5% slower reload
10% range and 10% lower dmg
10% range and 20% lower crit chance
20% dmg and 5% lower range
20% dmg and 5% slower reload
20% dmg and 20% lower crit chance
10% faster reload and 5% lower range
10% faster reload and 10% lower dmg
10% faster reload and 20% lower crit chance
40% crit chance and 10% lower dmg
40% crit chance and 5% lower range
40% crit chance and 5% slower reload

I formulated this according to enhancers that already exist. (x2 benefit effect) + (x1 negative effect)
This allows players to farther expand and maximize the limited enhancer slots available.
Accuracy Enhancer 20%
Damage Enhancer 10%
Range Enhancer 5%
Reload Enhancer 5% (does not exist yet but should be added)

Can I get an Amen?
Click to expand...

I may sucks at math, but what's the point of this one ?
10% faster reload and 10% lower dmg
 
xian said:
I may sucks at math, but what's the point of this one ?
10% faster reload and 10% lower dmg
Click to expand...

Less overkill is pretty obvious, also changing to fap faster can be life-saving
 
Piotr said:
Less overkill is pretty obvious, also changing to fap faster can be life-saving
Click to expand...

yes, and some mobs hit alot less when you speed your hitting up.
 
xian said:
I may sucks at math, but what's the point of this one ?
10% faster reload and 10% lower dmg
Click to expand...

God knows really. More for Tango like weapons. More shots more crits, faster tiering, more skill gains or if you are unlucky... more misses and more enhancer consumption. lol
The benefit is still there.

Example:
IMK2 - 72 dmg
Hypercharged A204 - 32 dmg
Total = 104 dmg

With 10% faster reload and 10% lower dmg
66.96(-10%dmg)
+32
98.96x1.10(reload effect)=108.856 dmg
About 4.67% more dps

Benefit isn't so great but it is there. Lowering dmg would lower the ammo consumption and decay as well or so it should.
 
HardWrath said:
It's the only thing I've been able to think of that would balance long term.

The original Adj, Imp, Mod came out long before tiering was an option but I have always thought that there should be a process for players to convert their items to Adj, Imp, and Mod.

I agree with that you said though... regular would become Adj, then Adj would become Imp, Imp would become Mod, Mod would become Reworked Mod, etc and could then be followed by Hypercharged or whatever. It could keep going and going.

Ancient could follow the same model, just with Adj, Imp, and Mod in the name... Same with Adapted items.

So in the case of the existing Adj, Imp, and Mod faps, when an Adj gets converted to Imp, a new Adj could potentially loot somewhere. To put this into perspective, in two months of fairly heavy hunting, I took an Adj Fap from tier 3.2 to 3.5.... So that gives an idea of how long this all would take.

There also would be high demand for an (L) item that can be attached to your unl item in order to accelerate the tier speed... Tier Amps... Creating a whole new category of items for people to craft.
Click to expand...

Not sure how you gonna make this work but adj should tier faster then imp mod in my exp.
This also means that at some point, you'll get a serious increase in imp faps availlable for example.
it's only when you convert the last (most uber) lootable item, that you make place to add a new one to the lootpool.
& even then, there's allready the reworked mod to take that place
 
ermik said:
yes, and some mobs hit alot less when you speed your hitting up.
Click to expand...

That's an urban legend i haven't heard in years. No one has ever demonstrated this to have basis in fact. I'm trying to remember if anyone disproved it outright, but i do know i did a small test back when i was testing the effect of evader on mob hit ratio and couldn't see a difference between shooting the mob vs not.
 
I realized that adding 12(x10 for each level) more enhancers is too confusing and too annoying for crafters. It can be simplified into 4(x10 for each level) enhancers with a prefix in which each can be right clicked and 3 options would show in which you can choose how you want to customize. I'm just going to use 'Overcharged' as an example, but it could be any other prefix like 'Adjustable' or whatever sounds good and makes sense.

Overcharged Weapon Damage Enhancer I-X
Overcharged Weapon Range Enhancer I-X
Overcharged Weapon Accuracy Enhancer I-X
Overcharged Weapon Reload Enhancer I-X

Example:

If you right click enhancer "Overcharged Weapon Damage Enhancer I" a list scroll opens.
20% dmg + 5% lower range
20% dmg + 5% slower reload
20% dmg + 20% lower crit chance
Pick one and TADA!
 
Doer said:
That's an urban legend i haven't heard in years. No one has ever demonstrated this to have basis in fact. I'm trying to remember if anyone disproved it outright, but i do know i did a small test back when i was testing the effect of evader on mob hit ratio and couldn't see a difference between shooting the mob vs not.
Click to expand...

I think it is an urban legend/hold over from the old days. Several major VUs ago, all avatar reloading was done local side and their seemed to be quite a large impact to reload rate when you had too many mobs on you. I think people took that to mean mob would have a similar effect if you hit them fast enough. However with the server side reload timing I have not experienced the drastic slow down you used to get when being mobbed. I don't think an avatars attack rate ever had an effect on mob hit rate, but to many it seemed logical at the time with the information they had.

In fact the only thing I've ever seen have any effect on mob hit rate is a full on server crash. Mob have no problem keeping their hit rate up even during hardcore lag periods or when the reload bar decides to take 40 seconds to reload instead of 5 :laugh:
 
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