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Discussion: Changes in CLD payments & ROI

shoti said:
hm...is that even possible. I mean MA buying back CLD's out of market ? You mean officially or silent reduction ?
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Well if I owned MA, buying CLD back is probably something I'd personally do on a limited basis but I've not seen any evidence to support the theory that MA's is actually doing it.
 
Why not? Nothing wrong even in doing it silently, as long as they wouldn't create peds for that out of thin air (which is unlikely, since withdrawals of those "fictitious" peds would be pretty real).
 
shoti said:
Meanwhile at MA HQ:

- ok guys , situation is critical. Level of players dissatisfaction reached RED on scale. Any ideas ?
- well....lets put out our secret weapon !
- which is ?
- lets boost CLD's payout for week or two so price stop decreasing !
- um....oh...ok [click,click,tap,tap] done....i set over 3 ped
- uffff, we have two months of peace now. Donut anyone ? :)
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One problem with that :) MA would like to see MU value of the land deeds go to 0 since they would not need to pay back as much. Higher the value of the deeds more MA will loose.
 
OZtwo said:
One problem with that :) MA would like to see MU value of the land deeds go to 0 since they would not need to pay back as much. Higher the value of the deeds more MA will loose.
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I never subscribe to the conspiracy theories that include MA destroying the economy that they have worked so hard and spent so much on trying to create. MA does not lose money on high item values... In order for someone to sell, someone else has to buy and likely deposit. The price point really doesn't affect MA. High item values increase deposit amounts and increase the overall amount of PED in circulation.

When you sell your CLD, it doesn't matter to MA what they are worth because you aren't selling them to MA, you are selling them to another player, who had to deposit before you could make that sale, get that PED, and request the withdrawal.
 
HardWrath said:
I never subscribe to the conspiracy theories that include MA destroying the economy that they have worked so hard and spent so much on trying to create. MA does not lose money on high item values... In order for someone to sell, someone else has to buy and likely deposit. The price point really doesn't affect MA. High item values increase deposit amounts and increase the overall amount of PED in circulation.

LOL...said nothing at all about a conspiracy about MA fixing the prices to lower the deeds here. Just common fact about how the deeds work.

But since you did bring this up, what way could MA fix it so high value items loose value? They could release the same items as limited items which in turn would kill the market saving MA a lot of money not having to give it back. Yes, ok, you opened the door here. heh
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Cerberis said:
This thead not about that, but... Im sure MA would love CLD drop to 500 ped each so they can buy it back and stop paying tax :D Dont foget that they got 6 000 000 USD and are paying from peds we loose each day. If CLD price drop below 1k - slow they can buy them back (again from peds we loose) and then they dont ened to pay all that tax any more :D
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.

Sure it would help them if the price was lower to buy them back. Although ped is not money is it, so I'm sure they buy them back off the gamblers at any price that they're pretty certain will burn it back into the game (i.e. single sellers). That's what I would do if I decided to be a ruthless businessmen. Or buy back of some nutter crafter who will burn it up in high value clicks.

There're still depositing buyers of course out there, peds for nothing is not a bad thing, MA probably make more money as investment bankers than they do off actual players (that's why the game is screwed, because the eye is off the ball where it really matters). Doesn't take a genius to calculate and measure and off-set new depositors for CLD's against revenue paid. So it's possible MA could filter them back and forth at that hearts content based on demand and money required.

Anyway the balance between numbers of investors and players I think has reached critical, especially if the non investing players (those MA really want), are not satisfied. That said continued invention of new assets to satisfy income will eventually lead to a lot of pain....does that really matter?

Smiles

Rick
 
OZtwo said:
But since you did bring this up, what way could MA fix it so high value items loose value? They could release the same items as limited items which in turn would kill the market saving MA a lot of money not having to give it back. Yes, ok, you opened the door here. heh
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First, there's no door. Second, it's closed. [kiddin] :tongue2:

The value MA has to "give back" is a TT value. MA can't care less about decreasing or increasing markup, that's our problem. If MA's balancing manager tries to manipulate those processes then he most likely has some other goal in mind, not 'cause he's terribly worried about the need to pay something back to players.

Don't feel bad about not understanding the fundamental logic of RCE. We all think we're experts in this stuff until we have to explain how it works to someone... and then suddenly realize it's all a bit foggy. I'm sure the vast majority of EU players don't really know how RCE works. Hell, i know even some professional game designers who have been in the MMO business for years, have created ingame economies and still haven't got a slightest idea about the basic principles of RCE.
 
shoti said:
hm...is that even possible. I mean MA buying back CLD's out of market ? You mean officially or silent reduction ?
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Doing it officially would be a total disaster. Although they did a small amount from the big investor to give out in loot and events.


Silently - ofc, silently they can do whatever the hell they want. Although not sure if its reasonable to do with price significantly over the original 1k. If you like thinfoil hat theories, than making a fake sale in the begining to the mysterious investor is a lot more logical than secretly buying back later on.
 
Fifth said:
MA can't care less about decreasing or increasing markup, that's our problem.
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More markup items have more money there needs to be in the system, but of course markup decreasing doesn't always mean that there's less money in system. In this case, it's not in MindArk's interest that stuff loses markup as it doesn't increase the number of deposits or deposits' total volume, instead what has happened is that the number of withdrawals has increased, so we are shrinking.
 
Pyhä Antero said:
More markup items have more money there needs to be in the system, but of course markup decreasing doesn't always mean that there's less money in system. In this case, it's not in MindArk's interest that stuff loses markup as it doesn't increase the number of deposits or deposits' total volume, instead what has happened is that the number of withdrawals has increased, so we are shrinking.
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Good point, this could be a reason why MA might want to keep it higher.

Can't imagine how they could actually influence the price thou, besides the obvious ROI.

Buying back part of the CLD's prolly wouldn't work either.
First, MA didn't pay anything when they released em (not even the TT value), so any price they would pay now would be insta loss.
Besides, increasing the markup while decreasing the amount in circulation would leave the total amount of PEDs tied up more or less the same - makes the whole effort kinda meaningless.


BTW, i believe MA might have an alternate goal with CLD's (besides raising funds). They might try to use ownership relations as means for creating a more stable and loyal customer base, ppl with "invested interest" (pun intended). I wouldn't be surprised if it's even included in their corporate policy or something. Just another stupid theory of mine ofc, but it allowed me to predict the Overdrive sale details better than most of the other (more paranoid) theories that were popular at the time.
 
Fifth said:
BTW, i believe MA might have an alternate goal with CLD's (besides raising funds). They might try to use ownership relations as means for creating a more stable and loyal customer base, ppl with "invested interest" (pun intended). I wouldn't be surprised if it's even included in their corporate policy or something. Just another stupid theory of mine ofc, but it allowed me to predict the Overdrive sale details better than most of the other (more paranoid) theories that were popular at the time.
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Good point Fifth,
I respect your opinion and qualify that obviously MA is a money making venture therefore you state the obvious. What is not quite obvious is the amount of RMD money channelled back into the platform to make it useable for all.
This is where CLD's will shine a light if retention is promoted by useability. MA need to keep form up here and perhaps extend the platform.

Myself issues related I think to IE 11 and recent IPV changes. I'm negotiating to get back on line longer than 6 minutes per logon.
Cheer
Xaph
 
Audrey Cheerful said:
Speak for yourself, you negative Neconu. Who is this "we" shit? Haven't you some consensual PvP to whine about somewhere?

:silly2:
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I have never consented to pvp in my life. That was a choice made by MA, and adopted by scumbags.

I was going to say lets not take this to far off topic, but perhaps its very much on topic.
Could be the number of people that have quit because of piracy, directly affects the poor cld pay outs :wise:

Either way with so many weeks of data, its very easy to see the trend is never ever going to be anywhere near the 30% mark.

P.S wont stop me buying into them, but I no longer bother to check weekly for payouts its just to depressing. maybe check on them 2-3 times a year now to collect revenue....but on a positive note, still better than AULD :)
 
Farmer Smurf said:
I have never consented to pvp in my life. That was a choice made by MA, and adopted by scumbags.

I was going to say lets not take this to far off topic, but perhaps its very much on topic.
Could be the number of people that have quit because of piracy, directly affects the poor cld pay outs :wise:
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I guess this is my fault but when I said "somewhere" I meant "somewhere else".

;)
 
wizz said:
Sky is rising again!
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I am not so sure. Pumping up CLD income for week or two don;t cost MA remotely anything close to losses they may get while CLD price fall down. Once reached low time high proce keeps in minds for ever.

After CLD's reached 1100/cld mark tehy had to do something. Funny how 2-3 weeks of average payouts over years of constant decrease makes ppl happy and brightseeing future :)
 
shoti said:
I am not so sure. Pumping up CLD income for week or two don;t cost MA remotely anything close to losses they may get while CLD price fall down. Once reached low time high proce keeps in minds for ever.

After CLD's reached 1100/cld mark tehy had to do something. Funny how 2-3 weeks of average payouts over years of constant decrease makes ppl happy and brightseeing future :)
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Why MA should care about price WE raised up?! :D Dont forget that CLD tt price is 0 and MA where selling for 1000 each. So why it should be 1100 or more? Other thing is that if pay outs are 3-4 ped and CLD cost 1500 - that is low pay outs, but if CLD cost 1000 and same payouts - that is good payouts. For different people, different % payouts are good. I know people who dont like event 15% ROI a year, but others are happy with 10% ROI. So... What about MA? Why they should care?
 
Cerberis said:
Why MA should care about price WE raised up?! :D Dont forget that CLD tt price is 0 and MA where selling for 1000 each. So why it should be 1100 or more? Other thing is that if pay outs are 3-4 ped and CLD cost 1500 - that is low pay outs, but if CLD cost 1000 and same payouts - that is good payouts. For different people, different % payouts are good. I know people who dont like event 15% ROI a year, but others are happy with 10% ROI. So... What about MA? Why they should care?
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They should care and they care, because they are fighting for trust. Only one thing is driving CLD price and that is income dividende they are generating ( as we dont have other promised features for 2 years ). If dividend gets low price is falling. Faling CLD prices = unhapy owners, which are causieng even bigger divident decrease. And that repeat till dividend will be almost zero and CLD price almost zero. Thats how look lack/lost of confidence toward issuer - common in RL

MA care about CLD price as they simply show their economical state.
 
shoti said:
They should care and they care, because they are fighting for trust. Only one thing is driving CLD price and that is income dividende they are generating ( as we dont have other promised features for 2 years ). If dividend gets low price is falling. Faling CLD prices = unhapy owners, which are causieng even bigger divident decrease. And that repeat till dividend will be almost zero and CLD price almost zero. Thats how look lack/lost of confidence toward issuer - common in RL

MA care about CLD price as they simply show their economical state.
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Their economical state is only shown by the deposits.
CLD price represent the demand/supply and payouts are not so important.
If tomorow the game join 60 000 people and everyone want to buy 1 CLD just for fun, the price of CLD will skyrocket no mather the ROI or payouts.
If big CLD owners decide to sell out price will fall even with 30% ROI.
 
shoti said:
They should care and they care, because they are fighting for trust. Only one thing is driving CLD price and that is income dividende they are generating ( as we dont have other promised features for 2 years ). If dividend gets low price is falling. Faling CLD prices = unhapy owners, which are causieng even bigger divident decrease. And that repeat till dividend will be almost zero and CLD price almost zero. Thats how look lack/lost of confidence toward issuer - common in RL

MA care about CLD price as they simply show their economical state.
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Do you know, that's there is people without any CLDs at all, and they doesn't give fuck about state of those - actually, it's majority of players?
 
shoti said:
They should care and they care, because they are fighting for trust. Only one thing is driving CLD price and that is income dividende they are generating ( as we dont have other promised features for 2 years ). If dividend gets low price is falling. Faling CLD prices = unhapy owners, which are causieng even bigger divident decrease. And that repeat till dividend will be almost zero and CLD price almost zero. Thats how look lack/lost of confidence toward issuer - common in RL

MA care about CLD price as they simply show their economical state.
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Higher price on CLD = people hold more peds in that = less hunts, less mines, less crafts = less tax :)
 
Cerberis said:
Higher price on CLD = people hold more peds in that = less hunts, less mines, less crafts = less tax :)
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CLD dont hold value itself, but lower price ( caused by lower CLD incomes ) mean less depos to buy them = less hunts, less mines, less crafts = less tax.
 
Its the time MA should consider buying-back some of LA's like 2% as most of profitable companies do after going big earnings post IPO launch.
 
shoti said:
CLD dont hold value itself, but lower price ( caused by lower CLD incomes ) mean less depos to buy them = less hunts, less mines, less crafts = less tax.
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What you are talking about?

All CLDs are sold by MA.
Those that circulate on second hand market are not really a concern to MA.
PED deposited by avatar A will be either a) withdrawn or b) not deposited by avatar B.
Therefore price they sell makes no difference for MA from deposit point of view.
 
Teiwaz Storm said:
What you are talking about?

All CLDs are sold by MA.
Those that circulate on second hand market are not really a concern to MA.
PED deposited by avatar A will be either a) withdrawn or b) not deposited by avatar B.
Therefore price they sell makes no difference for MA from deposit point of view.
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I think u are wroung from 2 reasons:

1. Money came from buying CLD's ( depos made by players to obtain them ) were either consumed indirectly by MA ( also in form of decay/loss by players ) or withdrawed/consumed by previous owners. Larger investors likely withdraw while small 1-2 CLD owners likely spent that value ingame

2. Lower price of CLD means less depos needed by new owners to obtain them. As CLD's are changing ownership all the time. Last 2 years CLD's were always aviable to buy, there was no single day u couldn't get CLD at some price.

...so in current system CLD price is going naturally to 0,00 as long as incomes from them doing same. Lower the income = lower CLD price = easier to obtain them and consume their value either by MA or players.

At hipotethical end, if current ROI keeps CLD worth 1 ped wil be earning 0,0024 ped weekly. At that moment there will be really tiny amount of players left to sustain that. As MA operating cost is always positive (u cant run such service like EU without costs) that mean we sooner see MA out of market than CLD for 1 ped, but trend is clear and that process already started.
 
shoti said:
That mean we sooner see MA out of market than CLD for 1 ped.
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Well unless other planets overtake calypso, calypso becomes the new next island and MA profits from the other planets :)
 
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