Does Damage to PEC Matter?

[valentin]

Thats why I wrote "... since the more you think of gamemechanism,
the more you need to include in tests..."
Yep, I do agree, skills (and what they influence) is just another part
that needs to be included in test.
Thats also why I always say a test needs to be done over a full cycle,
which could take months, or even longer...

Can i ask you..
1. What is a full cycle.?
2. When do i know that i have dunn a full cycle.?

 

[Joat]

Sorry, I'm not religious. I can't "believe" that some tests that support your side "exist" but they are magically just out of reach when needed to establish the truth. On the other hand I've shown over 5 major tests that show skills, eco, dmg/pec, armor/weapon/amp/fap selection, personal avatar stats and skills are completely meaningless in regards to loot tt return. These tests total almost 500.000 PED and show a 90% return rate consistently. Yet I am supposed to equally accept that there are some tests that everyone that disagrees with me has seen, and the theory that the data supports as I presented is not the actual truth.

Also, sorry Silvia Universe, you can't change belief with fact, yours is too strong and you seem to happily dismiss my extensive and well documented posts, while agreeing with any short sentence that supports your belief.

Again, I can't humanly do anything more to help the "eco bunch" to understand reality when their behavior is so superficial and ignorant.

Good luck and have fun.

No, they didn't magicaly disapear. Just because people don't publish stuff,
doesn't mean they don't excist. They don't want show that, and thats ok with
me. Just as when I got a good UL-item in loot, or have a skill triggered, I don't
show that anymore.

You don't have to accept those tests. I don't. Not all at least
Some have such a big difference, if they were done equaly, I doubt they would have that
difference. Thats the point here.
This is what I think happened here too, people don't use same statistics from every
test.
E.g: Do they count every MISS? Do they see a MISS as a interaction or a total loss?
Do they understand that system build up values to pay out loot "when ready to do so"?
Do they compare progression vs. outcome of each run, vs every global and so on?
Do they take into account what they did before the testrun? Do they compare outcome
based on general activity in EU? Hows the skillgain (in progressvalue vs amount)?
These are just very few things that should be asked for tests.
I did put down info above, and more things. I got bored after a couple of months thou'
since this only led to do my gaming really boring.

I agree with you thou', I would not except tests that wasn't shown here either.
I'm doubful at some tests that are showned thou'. Your are not in that
category. Nice cycling, even thou' 500k isn't "that much".

If you think I belong to any of the bad-eco vs good-eco, you're wrong.
Imo it's a question about finding right comb vs each and every mob.
My p.o.v is: do right interactions. Not based only on what the cost is, neither
only the damage done. There are more things to consider.
I often see people mention "it will give better loot", well it's rather a question
of being more efficient and reduce losses.
My interest is more around the mechanism than the outcome, even thou' *everything*
can be interesting...

 

[Joat]

Can i ask you..
1. What is a full cycle.?
2. When do i know that i have dunn a full cycle.?

What I see as a full cycle is when you manage to pass a full rank in your prof stand,
and end up in the same position as where you started.
So as a example, if you start at 58,5 you need to go to 62,5, if had started
at 59,5 you have to go to 63,5 and so on...
I've always had my best loots very very close to when I change either level
or rank.

 

[Fifth]

Ah, the skills. You're right. Skills are valuable, however...
- skill points have no TT value whatsoever
- skill gain depends on many factors that change with time and actions
- ESI TT is spent to extract skills, with a return rate of 90% (get the general idea? 90% on texturing/painting, 90% on skills, 90% on loot, 90% on everything, everybody do the dinosaur!)
- skill chip TT comes from ESI TT, skills have no value at tt yet, it's the ESI's value
- skill chips are sold for markup to other players (so all skills enter the Markup category over the ESI markup value, and not TT return)
- skill chips are inserted and the TT value is lost forever

So TT-wise, skills are a massive TT drain and have no value and can't affect the TT return rate in any way.
...
(snip)

Absolutely, here we run into the most important questions - how does the balancing algorithm calculate the skill values (among other things with MU)? Pure TT or not?

We don't know how it is, but... propose we try to think how MA would think.

If i have to make an algorithm that keeps my system balanced.
What is my main interest?
I want to know my overall balance, and i have to be able to predict what happens if, say, considerable number of skilled players will decide to sell out, all at once - items, skills, everything?
In other words, do i have enough liquidity?
Maybe i have to increase it? Or maybe i could free some back into the loot pool?
​

If you look at it this way, it can't be a pure TT value, this would not allow me to build a reliable model or predict any processes. So... looks like it would make sense to try to get as close to the real values used in real transactions as possible.

Maybe, maybe not, it's still only a theory.

 

[Xen]

Someone just go hunt with Swine Deluxe + Evil and compare it to RJ + Dante over 500K+ PED spent on medium-sized mobs...

SETTLE IT ONCE AND FOR ALL!

Finance it and I will do it.

 

[burnsey]

No, they didn't magicaly disapear. Just because people don't publish stuff,
doesn't mean they don't excist. They don't want show that, and thats ok with
me. Just as when I got a good UL-item in loot, or have a skill triggered, I don't
show that anymore.

You don't have to accept those tests. I don't. Not all at least
Some have such a big difference, if they were done equaly, I doubt they would have that
difference. Thats the point here.
This is what I think happened here too, people don't use same statistics from every
test.
E.g: Do they count every MISS? Do they see a MISS as a interaction or a total loss?
Do they understand that system build up values to pay out loot "when ready to do so"?
Do they compare progression vs. outcome of each run, vs every global and so on?
Do they take into account what they did before the testrun? Do they compare outcome
based on general activity in EU? Hows the skillgain (in progressvalue vs amount)?
These are just very few things that should be asked for tests.
I did put down info above, and more things. I got bored after a couple of months thou'
since this only led to do my gaming really boring.

I agree with you thou', I would not except tests that wasn't shown here either.
I'm doubful at some tests that are showned thou'. Your are not in that
category. Nice cycling, even thou' 500k isn't "that much".

If you think I belong to any of the bad-eco vs good-eco, you're wrong.
Imo it's a question about finding right comb vs each and every mob.
My p.o.v is: do right interactions. Not based only on what the cost is, neither
only the damage done. There are more things to consider.
I often see people mention "it will give better loot", well it's rather a question
of being more efficient and reduce losses.
My interest is more around the mechanism than the outcome, even thou' *everything*
can be interesting...

I don't think you understand how math works

 

[Joat]

I don't think you understand how math works

Why? Explain a bit more please. But sure, I'm no expert, neither on
dynamic coding, but I do understand basics of both...

 

[mrproper]

Can i ask you..
1. What is a full cycle.?
2. When do i know that i have dunn a full cycle.?

What is a cycle?

No, they didn't magicaly disapear. Just because people don't publish stuff,
doesn't mean they don't excist. They don't want show that, and thats ok with
me. Just as when I got a good UL-item in loot, or have a skill triggered, I don't
show that anymore.

You don't have to accept those tests. I don't. Not all at least

So why are they raging at me that I am wrong when providing actual data. That's like a proffessor showing that 2+2=4 and some kid saying his friend has some proof at home that 2+2=5, it exists, but he can't and won't show it to you, so you have to BELIEVE him. What is the logic in these people's heads? Oh, mrproper is wrong, because I say so, and that's enough to counter over half a million ped worth of experimental data? That's over 50.000$ used to obtain these results and the dedication of people logging the data. And they counter that with simple words. How does that work?

Dont show loot or items. It's just TT numbers. 100 ped ammo, 90 ped loot. OMG, I don't want you to know these numbers because?!

 

[mrproper]

Absolutely, here we run into the most important questions - how does the balancing algorithm calculate the skill values (among other things with MU)? Pure TT or not?

We don't know how it is, but... propose we try to think how MA would think.

If i have to make an algorithm that keeps my system balanced.
What is my main interest?
I want to know my overall balance, and i have to be able to predict what happens if, say, considerable number of skilled players will decide to sell out, all at once - items, skills, everything?
In other words, do i have enough liquidity?
Maybe i have to increase it? Or maybe i could free some back into the loot pool?
​

If you look at it this way, it can't be a pure TT value, this would not allow me to build a reliable model or predict any processes. So... looks like it would make sense to try to get as close to the real values used in real transactions as possible.

Maybe, maybe not, it's still only a theory.

Good questions. I don't know.

We know that texturing and painting have TT proportional skill gains. And that SIB tools have a few extra gains in the correct range. And someone did a test on Arkadia, where he showed that being close to the mob Level in your weapon proffesion brings more skills, so you must match weapons and mobs to your skills for maximum effect.

 

[|| Sachi ||]

If more people come to the same conclusions as you have outlined MrProper, it will be interesting to see the effects upon the weapon economy. It's my belief that most people buy Apis (L) etc. in the belief it will produce better longterm returns than say using an as129 or a maddox4. It may prompt MA to alter how loot is distributed once the majority of hunters recoil from paying markup. And, that's the one danger in using an un-eco setup imo, if they do change it, you will have lost a sizable chunk of ped before you twig onto the fact.

 

[Joat]

What is a cycle?

Look at some posts earlier. And remember, that is *my* p.o.v of a full cycle.
At least the timeframe part.

So why are they raging at me that I am wrong when providing actual data. That's like a proffessor showing that 2+2=4 and some kid saying his friend has some proof at home that 2+2=5, it exists, but he can't and won't show it to you, so you have to BELIEVE him. What is the logic in these people's heads? Oh, mrproper is wrong, because I say so, and that's enough to counter over half a million ped worth of experimental data? That's over 50.000$ used to obtain these results and the dedication of people logging the data. And they counter that with simple words. How does that work?

Dont show loot or items. It's just TT numbers. 100 ped ammo, 90 ped loot. OMG, I don't want you to know these numbers because?!

I guess you have to ask "them", why they raging against you.
If you mean me there, don't worry, I'm neutral against you, since
it isn't you I discuss here, but the lootsystem. But when I'm at it,
do you think *anyone* could get same result as you, if they used same
equipment and hunted same mob, at same time?

Can't see why you are wrong in tests, you spend certain amount, and you
gain certain amount. Keep doing these, it's quite interesting.

I think your comparison with 2+2=4 vs 2+2=5 is bit wrong way to see it,
as a whole. Partly right, but also partly wrong.
Someone might satisfy with 2+2=4, some might want to know why (1+1)+(1+1)=4,
but some do the mistake and miss one part, ending up with (1+1)+1=3, or 2+2=5.
While some few found out it actually were (1,001+1,001)+(1,001+1,001)=4,004...
4 might look right, even thou' 4,004 is more correct.
Can we tell exactly who belongs to what group here?

Cycle 500k is a bunch of peds, but as comparison, I cycled approx 110k on my
10k atrox-mission. (Imo, "cycle" = spending + loot, from start to end, on
a certain goal. If you lost 500k ped, ouch! Thats losing thou'. ).
That mission toke me 3½ weeks.
Were those 500k yours alone, or combination of several people?

It's quite simple why they don't hang around at forums (anymore), showing numbers.
They don't see a need to be there, doing that.

 

[prism]

I think MAs main goal is to make their loot return system as unexploitable as possible. Which is why I favor the tt spent -> 90% tt return model over pretty much everything else. The more complexity you add the more loopholes you create. As it grows more complex it also becomes a greater burden to manage and police. What I do think they manipulate is the drop rate of certain items/loot tables of mobs in order to manipulate mu value. I don't think the actual loot system messes with mu.

They also use the loot system to "create" money. MU is all player money outside the tt system therefore pure profit to MA in a sense. When they create an item worth tt+8000 that 8000 doesn't really cost them much but it does inflate the value of the economy. I know this paragraph doesn't really make sense yet but it is something I'm trying to think about more.

 

[Magix]

Eco will help you hunt longer, but I have noticed no difference between when I use an eco setup and when I use an un-eco set up(except how long I can hunt)

<just picked the first example I found, not directly addressing this poster>

This appears to be a common argument: regardless of what setup you use, the returns are the same.

There is a logical flaw in this argument, similar to comparing apples and oranges.

If dpp (damage per pec) is higher on weapon X vs weapon Y, then % return based on what is spent is about equal. However, because dpp is higher for a given number of loots, the total number of kills for a given amount spent should be higher for weapon X. Therefore, the actual return, not the % return, should still be higher.

This is an idiosyncracy of only hunting, as each monster has a set amount of average loot based on hit points that cannot be changed by amping or moving a condition bar. In the other professions, the players have far more control over the amount bet. In hunting, the only control hunters have is dpp: get as many drops as you can for as little as you can.

 

[prism]

<just picked the first example I found, not directly addressing this poster>

This appears to be a common argument: regardless of what setup you use, the returns are the same.

There is a logical flaw in this argument, similar to comparing apples and oranges.

If dpp (damage per pec) is higher on weapon X vs weapon Y, then % return based on what is spent is about equal. However, because dpp is higher for a given number of loots, the total number of kills for a given amount spent should be higher for weapon X. Therefore, the actual return, not the % return, should still be higher.

This is an idiosyncracy of only hunting, as each monster has a set amount of average loot based on hit points that cannot be changed by amping or moving a condition bar. In the other professions, the players have far more control over the amount bet. In hunting, the only control hunters have is dpp: get as many drops as you can for as little as you can.

I think your logic is based on faulty assumptions. Do you not look at any of the tests done? Or are you just here to spread disinformation?

 

[mrproper]

it will be interesting to see the effects upon the weapon economy. It's my belief that most people buy Apis (L) etc. in the belief it will produce better longterm returns than say using an as129 or a maddox4. It may prompt MA to alter how loot is distributed once the majority of hunters recoil from paying markup. And, that's the one danger in using an un-eco setup imo, if they do change it, you will have lost a sizable chunk of ped before you twig onto the fact.

Please note that SIB weapons give better skill gains. Even better when you hunt mobs with levels matching the SIB interval. Ignoring eco and decay, it is still a good idea to buy all weapons in progression as you level up. You pay that markup but you get more skills, if that's your priority.

Eco setups are again useful if you for example do the missions. Having the best kills/cost number lets you do 10-20% more kills with the same PED.

Cycle 500k is a bunch of peds, but as comparison, I cycled approx 110k on my
10k atrox-mission. (Imo, "cycle" = spending + loot, from start to end, on
a certain goal. If you lost 500k ped, ouch! Thats losing thou'. ).
That mission toke me 3½ weeks.
Were those 500k yours alone, or combination of several people?

That 500k was taken from several logs, I should make a meta topic to compare the logs, it will prove most intriguing. And what's more interesting, the player that logged over 350.000 ped, had a loot return of 98% (with markup). He basically lost less than 10.000 ped for what I estimate to be 170 days of non-stop hunting. That's about 2-2.5 ped per hour.

It's quite simple why they don't hang around at forums (anymore), showing numbers.
They don't see a need to be there, doing that.

Exactly. They are doing all right, they know exactly what works, and don't care about people whining about their loot or bad returns.

I think MAs main goal is to make their loot return system as unexploitable as possible. Which is why I favor the tt spent -> 90% tt return model over pretty much everything else. The more complexity you add the more loopholes you create. As it grows more complex it also becomes a greater burden to manage and police. What I do think they manipulate is the drop rate of certain items/loot tables of mobs in order to manipulate mu value. I don't think the actual loot system messes with mu.

It's so simple and fool-proof, why use something else, right? Nobody can profit at TT no matter what exploit they find.

 

[mrproper]

If dpp (damage per pec) is higher on weapon X vs weapon Y, then % return based on what is spent is about equal. However, because dpp is higher for a given number of loots, the total number of kills for a given amount spent should be higher for weapon X. Therefore, the actual return, not the % return, should still be higher.

This is an idiosyncracy of only hunting, as each monster has a set amount of average loot based on hit points that cannot be changed by amping or moving a condition bar. In the other professions, the players have far more control over the amount bet. In hunting, the only control hunters have is dpp: get as many drops as you can for as little as you can.

So what you are saying that mobs give loot depending on their hitpoints and no based on the cost to kill them? You can't get more loot if you spend more ammo and decay with an un-eco setup?

 

[Joat]

Please note that SIB weapons give better skill gains. Even better when you hunt mobs with levels matching the SIB interval. Ignoring eco and decay, it is still a good idea to buy all weapons in progression as you level up. You pay that markup but you get more skills, if that's your priority.

Eco setups are again useful if you for example do the missions. Having the best kills/cost number lets you do 10-20% more kills with the same PED.



That 500k was taken from several logs, I should make a meta topic to compare the logs, it will prove most intriguing. And what's more interesting, the player that logged over 350.000 ped, had a loot return of 98% (with markup). He basically lost less than 10.000 ped for what I estimate to be 170 days of non-stop hunting. That's about 2-2.5 ped per hour.


Exactly. They are doing all right, they know exactly what works, and don't care about people whining about their loot or bad returns.




It's so simple and fool-proof, why use something else, right? Nobody can profit at TT no matter what exploit they find.

Ok, I guessed it were several logs there, thanks.

My interest in this is the mechanism of EU and loot. Not to improve it directly,
it's more as a curiosity.
Why did I only lose less than a percent on those atrox, while same set up
is way worse on feffs, but works ok on sumima, and are bad on Scips?
I want to "see" the process, and with all these layers EU has in lootsystem,
it's more or less impossible to find out 100% of it.
But still a fun thing to look for, and even more fun when some ideas I have
around it are shared by some that don't hang around here anymore.
Imo, way too many look at the system from players p.o.v, while they maybe
should look at it more from a system p.o.v. Me included in some parts.

 

[mrproper]

Ok, I guessed it were several logs there, thanks.

My interest in this is the mechanism of EU and loot. Not to improve it directly,
it's more as a curiosity.
Why did I only lose less than a percent on those atrox, while same set up
is way worse on feffs, but works ok on sumima, and are bad on Scips?
I want to "see" the process, and with all these layers EU has in lootsystem,
it's more or less impossible to find out 100% of it.
But still a fun thing to look for, and even more fun when some ideas I have
around it are shared by some that don't hang around here anymore.
Imo, way too many look at the system from players p.o.v, while they maybe
should look at it more from a system p.o.v. Me included in some parts.

I don't have any conclusive data but some experimental results show that every entry in a mob's loot table has a controlled drop rate which follows a similar trend to the TT value return, with a uniform long term drop rate, making loot contents not completely random. There is still much to learn.

Also since those mobs have different costs to kill, totally dependant on your individual setup, their loot value distribution is different. And your next mob loot is influenced by what you looted so far, each run is unique, but statistical analysis can uncover the general parameters.

Just do a limited test of killing a certain value from each spawn and alternate them using a binary or gray code spawn selection method (like in my chart). If you do just one run in one spawn and one in another, the effects of the first hunt will bleed into the second one without allowing the reverse. And if you alternate equally, the homogeneity of the results hides the bias that you are looking for.

 

[|| Sachi ||]

Please note that SIB weapons give better skill gains. Even better when you hunt mobs with levels matching the SIB interval. Ignoring eco and decay, it is still a good idea to buy all weapons in progression as you level up. You pay that markup but you get more skills, if that's your priority.

While true, I doubt people would pay the 40ped markup per apis for simple a very slight bump in skill gains. If they realise they can get the same longterm return percentage with an as129 - assuming they have an avg skill level -, I am sure most hunters will pick that option. Plus what you save on markup, you could spend chipping in skills. If the vast majority of hunters come to the conclusions you have outlined, I am sure the demand for Limited weaponry and armor and faps will crash.

 

[mrproper]

While true, I doubt people would pay the 40ped markup per apis for simple a very slight bump in skill gains. If they realise they can get the same longterm return percentage with an as129 - assuming they have an avg skill level -, I am sure most hunters will pick that option. Plus what you save on markup, you could spend chipping in skills. If the vast majority of hunters come to the conclusions you have outlined, I am sure the demand for Limited weaponry and armor and faps will crash.

True.

But if everyone starts chipping, skill chips raise in price, and it's more economical to buy SIB weapons and sell skills.
If everyone buys SIB weapons and sells skills, skill prices drop and it's cheaper to implant.

Oh, hai there market balance

 

[Joat]

I don't have any conclusive data but some experimental results show that every entry in a mob's loot table has a controlled drop rate which follows a similar trend to the TT value return, with a uniform long term drop rate, making loot contents not completely random. There is still much to learn.

Also since those mobs have different costs to kill, totally dependant on your individual setup, their loot value distribution is different. And your next mob loot is influenced by what you looted so far, each run is unique, but statistical analysis can uncover the general parameters.

Just do a limited test of killing a certain value from each spawn and alternate them using a binary or gray code spawn selection method (like in my chart). If you do just one run in one spawn and one in another, the effects of the first hunt will bleed into the second one without allowing the reverse. And if you alternate equally, the homogeneity of the results hides the bias that you are looking for.

Yep, loot is far from random imo. Taking notice in 10k missions really
helps to "see" what comes back in a kind of a cycle.
Interactions can be way more finetuned now, I do test this until I find
one that gives best return in longrun, in "normal" state that is.
The basic setup is same on all those mobs I mentioned, it's the
finetuning that has a difference. Each one works best for each type of
mob. But looking at it from a mechanism p.o.v, it isn't a finetuned item,
it's just another value related to a dynamic coded action.
There are several more mobs these setups work on, e.g atrox and aranea
has similar outcome on same setup.

If you use this technique even with different professions you can quite
often balance out one bad profession with something better in return,
ending up with a good ROI in the end...

 

[Freelancer_Main]

<just picked the first example I found, not directly addressing this poster>

...

This is an idiosyncracy of only hunting, as each monster has a set amount of average loot based on hit points that cannot be changed by amping or moving a condition bar. In the other professions, the players have far more control over the amount bet. In hunting, the only control hunters have is dpp: get as many drops as you can for as little as you can.

Do my SIMPLE TEST shown here https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/...o-PEC-Matter&p=2924258&viewfull=1#post2924258

and for the love of god DO TESTS BEFORE YOU POST S***

Thank you.
Come again.

 

[Svarog]

I just realized that the whole thread has nothing to do with the OP's question

The original question was - who is right, the OP or his friend? And the answer is BOTH.

• Does eco help killing more mobs for the same PEDs? YES.
• Does the greater cost of killing a mob bring more loot from it? YES.

The thing is, each of those questions is asked by two completely different groups of players. This thread is essentially a holywar between HOF-chasers and grinders. The first care about dmg/sec, use damage-enhancers on their weapons, participate in LA-events with the "Biggest single" win condition, hunt the most badass mobs they can stand, and some even believe that they are "due" to something because of their insane expenses. The second are interested in dmg/pec, prefer eco-enhancers (or maybe range, accuracy, but not damage ones), hunt familiar mobs, and rarely go to LAs at all. Any arguments between them have no meaning, because they play two virtually different games.

That's why I, as a grinder, was amazed at first why mrproper separated missions from other activities - when not doing missions, I usually check ET which of my favorite mobs aren't in the red now and mow them down for hours. Just like I never buy lottery tickets in RL, I don't chase HOFs in EU, haven't had any for years and doing just fine without them. Even if I don't break even on a run, I hardly ever have returns worse than 80%, and that's considering the fact that I tt most of cheap stackables with MU < 200% (unless I got amounts enough to fulfil some auction order) and I'm often too lazy to use a finisher. I'm sure that a really determined ecomaniac with a plump enough ped-cushion can easily make 100+%.

P.S.: Two words about tests. The first question you have to answer is, do you believe that time of day and week affect the loot? If you don't, welcome to another holywar . If you do, then you have to agree that any comparative tests are simply meaningless. You could not step twice into the same rivers; for other waters are ever flowing on to you. You'll get different result even with the same setup on the same day later, because this time different people do different stuff, altering the state of the lootpool.

 

[mrproper]

P.S.: Two words about tests. The first question you have to answer is, do you believe that time of day and week affect the loot? If you don't, welcome to another holywar . If you do, then you have to agree that any comparative tests are simply meaningless. You could not step twice into the same rivers; for other waters are ever flowing on to you. You'll get different result even with the same setup on the same day later, because this time different people do different stuff, altering the state of the lootpool.

If you interleave your tests and do several samples at once (like one-two with each setup) you are within the same "time of day". Maybe spread the tests over a week like I did and pick several playing hours for each. What if maybe there is no loot pool and all that matters is you. The fact that the loot is more abundant in some hours could be because expenses are also abundant. There is so much to learn...

 

[Terminator]

Do my SIMPLE TEST shown here https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/...o-PEC-Matter&p=2924258&viewfull=1#post2924258

and for the love of god DO TESTS BEFORE YOU POST S***

Thank you.
Come again.

Your test is very interesting and I have two questions:
- How long does the effect last?
- Did you try another test: use a eco weapon you never used before?

The other day, I hunted baby mobs with TT knife and had weird loot with a lot of items, even a 2-FAPs loot window.

Some years ago there was a loot theory that recommended to switch gear and mobs frequently to "reset" the Loot function (that was supposed to be adaptative to our actions - as a safety). Swithing to E-Amp 15 or melee could have same effect.

Hehe, I'm afraid we have left the Eco topic to reach the Loot topic...

Please try burning 10 TT knives.

 

[Freelancer_Main]

Your test is very interesting and I have two questions:
- How long does the effect last?
- Did you try another test: use a eco weapon you never used before?
...

Effect lasts till you have PEDs to repair that amp + ammo + decay of gun. You will notice looting stuff more often that you only loot sporadically (Cornacaudas drop colonizer boots, they then dropped more of these). It doesnt matter which eco gun you use, its not based on the weapon used, its based on decay spent which you singificantly increase with that amp.
Hope that answers your questions.

Also you can easilly global since you increase the kill cost.
Check my EU Tracker here: http://www.entropiatracker.com/player.asp?mode=viewPlayer&PlayerID=31939
Those berycled were near each other and my setup was M2100 + EAmp-15 But I think that refering to tracker is not a worthy argument, its just to see the loot increase is possible.

You are simply just increasing the amplitude of loot cycle, thus you need to spend alot more PEDs cycling in order to maintain magical 90% return. Same as like with amped mining.

Also another fact is that your bad return later comes back in good return at you in order to achieve those 90%. You maybe saw it, you login to game after some time and WOOT the loot and claims are bigger and more fruitful. This is the systems reaction which I think needs to be next thing to discover how works.

This test is almost identical and is from another thread which seems to be forgoten to most players and mrproper sometimes refers to it in his posts as a valid and legit information. Its just 1 year old now HERE: https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/showthread.php?210471-Get-involved-Help-test-hunting

Its almost 7 years now that people noticed that eco doesnt matter (given certain exceptions) I dont understand how can people still be so blind and not atleast test stuff.
HERE: https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/showthread.php?2787-Damage-per-PEC-is-irrelevant

This is very simple, but can be explained as quite complicated.

Thank you.
Come again.

 

[Terminator]

...
Its almost 7 years now that people noticed that eco doesnt matter (given certain exceptions) I dont understand how can people still be so blind and not atleast test stuff.
HERE: https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/showthread.php?2787-Damage-per-PEC-is-irrelevant
...
Thank you.
Come again.

There is no need to call "blind" the people that don't share your views, we are just discussing some theories here.

What I know for sure is that there could be so many factors influencing the way loot is distributed that nobody will never know. Not counting that the loot engine is probably adjusted by MA.

Personnaly I'm breaking even / low profiting in hunting since the day I switched to maxed weapons and became eco-aware and that's enough for me. I just don't want to use Opalo + E15.

If you can profit using uneco gear, that makes me think that none of us can be convinced by the theories from other people. I shall stop believing that what works for me should work for other people as well.


So my final words in this thread are:
"Find you own way and don't change it as long as it works" (Terminator, 2012-04-18)

 

[Svarog]

There is no need to call "blind" the people that don't share your views, we are just discussing some theories here.

At least they only call people blind, not actually do blind them - religious zealotry made a great step towards humanity in the last centuries

Forgot to comment one thing from the thread.

Please note that SIB weapons give better skill gains. Even better when you hunt mobs with levels matching the SIB interval. Ignoring eco and decay, it is still a good idea to buy all weapons in progression as you level up. You pay that markup but you get more skills, if that's your priority.

Cruel animal testings displayed that the bonus is negligible compared to the losses from using a non-maxed gun. Apparently it doesn't matter if you want to hasten your skill progress at any cost, but I suspect that even chipping those skills in would be more effective ped- and time-wise.

 

[mrproper]

Cruel animal testings displayed that the bonus is negligible compared to the losses from using a non-maxed gun. Apparently it doesn't matter if you want to hasten your skill progress at any cost, but I suspect that even chipping those skills in would be more effective ped- and time-wise.

I don't know if those tests took mob level into setup, but I know this test did: http://arkadiaforum.com/showthread.php?3330-Skilling-on-Caraboks-L6-gt-L23-TT-return-skilling-curve

Two things to note here:
- You can see long term loot return on carabok, for 1390 PED on a 10 pec mob. That's quite a significant number. But even after just 300-400 ped, you can see the average curve level off towards the 80-90% tangent, where it stays by the end of the log. The more data you have, the smaller the confidence interval. Caraboks can global anytime.
- The last chart shows level progress for the same weapon, but in the middle of the experiment, the mob changed from L2 to L10. As the player was now closer to lvl 12 in Laser Sniper (Hit), you can see a sharp turn in his skilling speed, which levels off as he strays further away from the mob's level

This is an indication that not only you must pick a weapon with SIB for your profession (and ignore lower damage, misses and extra decay because you get paid by cost not damage), but you must also match yourself against mobs with levels as close to your SIB and profession level as possible, to obtain what seems 3x-4x more skillgain on the chart, at the point of inflection.

 

[Silvia Universe]

Well as for those tests with an E-amp 15 on a low gun, I did that already and my outcome is it don't work and if it does work well it takes some time to get that decay back spend from the the amp and for me that is just plain gambling, so I rather keep on hunting in my eco way and know at least that if I have a bad run it will not be a 40% to 60% return cuz i went on Opalo hunt amped with E-amp 15.
I personally never had such returns hunting the way I do so I say dmg/pec is for me a good way and it does matter for me, and yes I do get globals also and no I am no high solo roller.