Question: Does tt rate and tt itself ruin the economy?

[kleus]

So i was thinking, every item ingame is valued by it's tt price and not by it's actual value (which, according to the economics theory, is valued by the offer and demand curve of said item).

So, imagine EU without any tt's, anarchy? No, you'd simply see some items increasing in price and others decreasing, MindArk would be able to increase the loot rate of stuff simply because the players wouldn't have the chance of selling to them.

That means MA would only have profit (from repairs, ammo, probes, etc) and no losses (that right now should mostly come from tting items, which most players still do).

This, in my opinion, would create a better economy, where the value of stuff would be based on how much a player spent to get them, and how much other players want them.

Now you think "well if everyone profits where do the ped come from"?

Not everyone would profit ofc, people would still need to deposit in order to buy most things, like a fancier gun or to get more ores to craft, etc.

Thoughts?

 

[ChairmanEdgewise]

Would it make a better economy by removing the TT value of items?


Honestly can't see what you seem to see here... Having a TT value gives a base price, somewhere to start and also gives us a point of view of MA's "price" of an item.. Higher means more rare, giving us an idea of what we just looted..

I think?

 

[Legrian BB]

So i was thinking, every item ingame is valued by it's tt price and not by it's actual value (which, according to the economics theory, is valued by the offer and demand curve of said item).

So, imagine EU without any tt's, anarchy? No, you'd simply see some items increasing in price and others decreasing, MindArk would be able to increase the loot rate of stuff simply because the players wouldn't have the chance of selling to them.

That means MA would only have profit (from repairs, ammo, probes, etc) and no losses (that right now should mostly come from tting items, which most players still do).

This, in my opinion, would create a better economy, where the value of stuff would be based on how much a player spent to get them, and how much other players want them.

Now you think "well if everyone profits where do the ped come from"?

Not everyone would profit ofc, people would still need to deposit in order to buy most things, like a fancier gun or to get more ores to craft, etc.

Thoughts?

Seem strange that you look at TT as a loss. So if removing TT means that all loots would be valued as "zero" PEDs, than we would not have anymore HOF's at all just plain loots. If you don't see oils etc as items. Though MA don't loose peds on TT, here's why.

MA give away a weapon (L) worth 50 PED in your loot. Now you can either sell this item to a player or TT. MA will than get their return on either of these. The weapon will be used "decayed" or if you TT it you get 50 PED but you also give MA their 50 PED you gaved them back. 50-50 = 0

 

[kleus]

Seem strange that you look at TT as a loss. So if removing TT means that all loots would be valued as "zero" PEDs, than we would not have anymore HOF's at all just plain loots. If you don't see oils etc as items. Though MA don't loose peds on TT, here's why.

MA give away a weapon (L) worth 50 PED in your loot. Now you can either sell this item to a player or TT. MA will than get their return on either of these. The weapon will be used "decayed" or if you TT it you get 50 PED but you also give MA their 50 PED you gaved them back. 50-50 = 0

No profit is a loss. Plus HoFs are just there as a marketing strategy and to make players want said hofs.

The base value of an item should be given by it's demand and how hard it was to get/item rarity, not by what MA thinks it should be worth!

 

[Few Scars]

Unfortunately it isn't the TT value that is the problem. It's the markup. If you look at the market since the financial crisis a few interesting trends have emerged. Armour has taken a huge hit as have UL weapons. What is interesting is that some items have held their value or gone up, such as a Dante amp, still sells between +2300-2500. Shopkeepers are still going up in value from +2300 to near 4K now.

The big ticket items such as LAs, Uber weapons such as Mod mercs, items like Mod FAPs etc have held their markup for the most part because the owners dare not lose such a large USD investment so will only trade amongst other ubers for items of similar MU or if some rich player can afford it.

As a new member of PCF if you look through the Selling forum, you will see the same avatars buying and selling the high end items. I call this "The circle of uberdom" these are avatars who are circa 2004-2006 who played when uber items dropped and they were cheap. The value of such items has gone sky high and for most players it is like watching a Porsche drive by. You know you will never own one, but you can dream on anyway.

The other problem with MU is it is very fragile. Players needing quick Ped may knock 50Ped off the price or 1% off the price of an item in auction to undercut the other player, and hence the cycle continues, bouncing back every now and then when supply dries up and the players can charge more again.

On example of a disaster in MU was the recent ES500s that dropped on RT. They had a MU of 6-7K, which dropped to 1.5K overnight due to a mass drop of them. A lot of money lost for the previous owners. The same thing happened with Tiering. The cost of Tiered items was going up due to risk of losing the second item and rarity of such high tiered items as most players dare not risk a 10KPed second item. Then MA turned around and scrapped the second item....prices plummeted and people lost money without any compensation from MA.
But on a good note the prices of Tiered items are again going up as the cost to tier is expensive.

In this game Markup is the risk and has the power to make or break this economy because it is purely based on players actions and MAs interference.

So enjoy this economy. The best and only way to make money is to loot something rare and valuable. Look at the Proteron DNA parts saga!

 

[aridash]

relearn economics, nothing has 0 value. tt should be seen as the scrap value.

as a game device, tt is imperitive, without it hunters and crafters would be skint in a day as most materials/produce are worthless to anyone else.

 

[kleus]

relearn economics, nothing has 0 value. tt should be seen as the scrap value.

as a game device, tt is imperitive, without it hunters and crafters would be skint in a day as most materials/produce are worthless to anyone else.

Wait what? I have this huge collection of old stamps, which (and ive checked) have no tt value, and are worthless to everyone else, does that mean i'm in a skint?

You say the materials are worthless to everyone else, but it's implicit that they are not worthless between them, that means they have a value between them and can be traded accordingly!

 

[ermik]

The big ticket items such as LAs, Uber weapons such as Mod mercs, items like Mod FAPs etc have held their markup for the most part because the owners dare not lose such a large USD investment so will only trade amongst other ubers for items of similar MU or if some rich player can afford it.

Mod merc have gone from +250k to +120k

Mod fap were +400k , now not selling even at +300k

Imp fap was +250k , now ppl bid 80-100k for one.

so not sure about the "hodling it markup"

cheers

ermik

 

[Futurama]

Wait what? I have this huge collection of old stamps, which (and ive checked) have no tt value, and are worthless to everyone else, does that mean i'm in a skint?

You say the materials are worthless to everyone else, but it's implicit that they are not worthless between them, that means they have a value between them and can be traded accordingly!

I agree with aridash - there is a lot of stuff from hunting that people drop in trade terminal these days, because the demand, markup and sales volume is way to low to be bothered with.

 

[kosmos]

Sounds like you played SL and liked it. I know some SL players that perfer the tt system here.

 

[Cerberus]

Here's a few key points you're missing:

* Having no TT would make EU hell for those that just want to play a bit, and not worry about setting good auctions, finding good sellers etc. These players make up a lot of the EU community
* Items are already priced on supply vs demand, as well as general complexity in getting the item.
* Loot isn't considered a loss on MA's behalf, just like one-armed-bandits aren't "losing" money whenever they pay out
* It's pretty damn illegal to have a game which so closely resembles gambling, where payouts are fully dependant on your ability to sell them to others. The lottery inspection would have a field day. Ontop of that, discussions about MLM would run rampant

Here's what your suggestion would generate:

* Desertion of players, in massive proportions
* Lawsuits against MA
* An unplayable game

 

[steffel]

TT value is mandatory to convert deposits into the game actions (in the repair & TT machine). if ammo, probes, armor etc. wouldn't have any TT value, then the game would be indeed free to play. no TT value = no TT loss, which in the end means = no MA = no game

reducing the TT value would probably benefit some items, e.g. enhancers, some UL weaps. but looking at sweat, dung, fruit and stones with their 1/1000 pec TT value it's not comfortable dealing with such items.

 

[Dollymaus]

TT value is mandatory to convert deposits into the game actions (in the repair & TT machine). if ammo, probes, armor etc. wouldn't have any TT value, then the game would be indeed free to play. no TT value = no TT loss, which in the end means = no MA = no game

but if we could hunt at 10% of the actual cost and only find stuff at 0.00 PED TT Return(=100% loss in tt always- but sellable stuff to others) it would be indeed a honest possibilty... but than all the dreams of big loots are gone as well as the complains about <50% tt return

 

[kleus]

but if we could hunt at 10% of the actual cost and only find stuff at 0.00 PED TT Return(=100% loss in tt always- but sellable stuff to others) it would be indeed a honest possibilty... but than all the dreams of big loots are gone as well as the complains about <50% tt return

Yep. HoFs and big loots only ruin the gameplay imho... Loot should be more consistent so that hunters could have a profit with the markup!

 

[RobBuona]

The big ticket items such as LAs, Uber weapons such as Mod mercs, items like Mod FAPs etc have held their markup for the most part because the owners dare not lose such a large USD investment so will only trade amongst other ubers for items of similar MU or if some rich player can afford it.

Mod merc have gone from +250k to +120k

Mod fap were +400k , now not selling even at +300k

Imp fap was +250k , now ppl bid 80-100k for one.

so not sure about the "hodling it markup"

cheers

ermik

I think what Few Scars was trying to say is that if I go tell one of my friends that a Mod FAP now costs 30,000 USD rather than 40,000 USD, he isn't going to say, "I see. It has lost quite a bit of value then." He will instead say..."WTF $30,000 FOR A VIRTUAL ITEM!?!?!"

That said, maybe they have lost some value, but Few Scars seems to be falling into the same line of thinking as common Sweat Gatherers: price is not just determined by the "asking price." It's determined by where supply and demand meet - what the market demands at that very moment and how easily obtainable the item is. What buyers are willing to pay is just as big a determinant as what sellers are asking.

If you weren't thinking that way I apologize, but some do think that way. The key is that the prices are so high not so much due to the actions of players, but because MindArk forced the prices where they are by intentionally making these items extremely rare. They want people to deposit several thousands of dollars.

* Items are already priced on supply vs demand, as well as general complexity in getting the item.

Cerberus touched on the points I made above here.

 

[XeroX2]

just play some afterworld and then be glad you have the system we have here.

 

[kleus]

just play some afterworld and then be glad you have the system we have here.

True story! Heh.

 

[narfi]

I see tt value as security or insurance for myself.

If I buy an item worth 100ped TT with 120% markup and the market drops over night to 100% I still have 100ped of value that i can TT or use.

Same goes for + markup items.

If I buy an item with 40ped tt and a markup of +1000, if the market crashes overnight I still have that 40ped of value.

This is why I am careful to look at the benefits of something vs the markup before buying it.

Every once in a while I need to have a not so gentle reminder why I view things that way. My recent purchase of an ES400 for 1500ped was one of those reminders.

The example of a dante was used as a high markup item. So far that was my largest single personal investment, and I bought it because the benefits outweighed the markup. Conveniently for me when I stopped hunting to skill mining for a while, the markup was still there and I was able to recoup my investment + all the benefits I had from using it. But if the market had crashed on the dante, I wouldn't have been bitter, It would still have been worth it since I had weighed the costs before buying.

Hope that makes sense on how I view the usefulness of TT in our economy.

narfi

 

[billairboy]

I agree with some other posters in the thread, the tt value is the foundation of the EU economy. The EU economy is diffrent compare to the RL economy, in real life we all have some basic needs that we must fulfill. We must eat, have cloth and a home and probaly will want to have some fun too. These needs don't go away easily or very fast, so the demands on goods don't "disapper over a night", it's a more slow process.

In EU the players don't have these basic needs, they can stop playing and buying items when they want. The insecurity of the items value would be to big without a minimum value (tt value).

 

[Xavier Target]

If items had no tt value, I would have quit playing after my first $10 deposit. As a new player I just wanted to tt the loot and go back out hunting and mining. If I had to find a buyer for my very common oils and residues, I would have found this game a chore to play. Many times you just want to dump the loot in the tt and go back out hunting. Your proposal would make it a job each time to sell your loot in ah or at twins. Its fine to do that sometimes, but all the time would be a big negative. Hey guys, I'll return to the team hunt as soon as someone buys my loot..

 

[aridash]

Wait what? I have this huge collection of old stamps, which (and ive checked) have no tt value, and are worthless to everyone else, does that mean i'm in a skint?

You say the materials are worthless to everyone else, but it's implicit that they are not worthless between them, that means they have a value between them and can be traded accordingly!

firstly, your stampse do have a tt value as scrap/recycling, albeit negligable amount. secondly, those stamps did have a face value once and if unused still do.

i made a qualification "as a game device". you couldnt go back now as too much tt is already in use. you could concievably start from scratch, but not with these game mechanics as the TT value gives you most of your value back. however the MU on much of it is nothing, i have more skins, extractors and other junk than the total weekly auction volume, so the value is tt. as thats the base level, those items are demonstably worthless to others, since they dont buy them.

if you wish to prove me wrong, i can meet up and trade several hundred peds worth of stuff from storage for a few % MU. interested?

 

[SpikeBlack]

if you wish to prove me wrong, i can meet up and trade several hundred peds worth of stuff from storage for a few % MU. interested?

well you'll probably have to meet at storage because I just tried to move my 40k pile of skins to the auction and can't move as it's too heavy

 

[Colbey Kal]

TT value does have an important role; it helps the economy stay 'more' efficient.

Everyone loves to quote Econ-101's supply/demand theory. They think it means the current MU is the efficient price. They forget economics makes a bunch of assumptions as the basis for it's theories.. For example:

• People are logical
• Labor has a cost

This is a GAME!

People "pay" to do what they 'should' charge a wage to do.
Most players want to relax and have fun, not nickel & dime to save the last pec.

With Econ's basic assumptions unstable MA has (rightfully) created an artifical floor for those time the market doesn't hold up.

 

[Corey 'Greyfox']

If for no other reason we need the TT value because that is MA's promise to us. It's like a safety net guarantee it's worth less then what you paid for it but to encourage people to put money into the game MA promises to pay you a preset price for anything you buy/acquire. You may loose ton's in MU but at least you have a token amount left. Without TT you would have nothing.

But I can see what you are trying to get a cross. That people should be able to profit off MU and not worry about TT. Well this is entirely possible in the current system for those who know how to do it, but with just MU alone it would be a lot harder as some things would have very low value if based on MU alone and you could only profit if you got some high end gear in loot, basically reducing the entire system to luck based.
Also, it has never been officially stated but many players have done extensive research to show that long term you will get back in TT value 90% of your decay. So all you need to do is worry about getting that 10% back to break even. No TT value and you would get 0% of your decay back, meaning you now have to worry about recouping 100% of your cost rather then just 10%.

And no hof's and globals are not just a marketing strategy, if they where then http://www.entropiauniverse.com would have hof's and globals update on their website in real time. Their is really not much point in advertising to gamers while they are in your game. That would make as much sense as having random billboards all over the planets saying, "come join the Entropia Universe". No it's a score counter, much the same way as other games count score, achievements, trophies or whatever else. I once played a short lived mmo that broadcast throughout the game world every time a player level'd up.
Displaying peoples achievements for the rest of the virtual world to see is an old tactic, started even before mmo's with the "High Score" board on arcade games. They give people the proof to back up their claim. And for some people mmo's are all about getting the high score just like it was back in the arcades. Except in an mmo the entire world has a chance to beat your score, making having that score mean more. Back in the arcade their where only a few thousand people at most for competition. Online there is potentially billions of competitors.
Anyway back to the globals and hof's, they simply help fuel this competition. Why do you think so many people brag about their ubers on this forum? It's a contest. With out globals or hof's what could we use as a score counter in this contest?

 

[kleus]

@Greyfox, good post. + rep, entirelly true.

About my general idea, it's a bad one.

Not just about what you guys said, but because (and it took some time to come to me) increasing loot and removing tt means only one thing, everyone would profit from the ingame resources, obviously removing the necessity of a deposit.

This would not only make your items and avatars worthless, but the players would also find a way of using some other way of currency, like for example, animal muscle oil. And it wouldn't be a good thing.

Anyways, thank you for taking your time to read what i said and comment on it, in any case, there is a way of opening up the ingame economy, making it more dynamic.

But some game mechanics would have to change.

 

[HardWrath]

Steffel is right. The entire model of game play is based on TT vallue. Money enters the game through deposits. PED enters the loot distribution system through the use of consumables purchased at the TT. That same PED is then distributed through loot in the form of TT value of items. As the item decays, that PED is now basically gross revenue for MA and the planet company.

Its a vicious cycle that deducts PED from the in-game world which frees up the real-world dollars to be used on the real life monetary needs of the companies that deliver this game to us. The financial requirements of MA and the planet companies prevent it from being a zero sum game. The financial obliations must be met or there wont be a game. The real solution is to dramatically increase the size of the player base. That would increase the overall total revenue thus allowing MA and the planet companies the freedom to accept a lower rate of $ return per player. That would be accomplished by decreasing the average decay of items. With the (L) stuff they could simply introduce new generations/versions of items with a lower decay to TT burn ratio. If it decays less and burns more TT value of ammo/bombs/probes etc then that means more PED per player cycling through the loot system and less deductions from decay. Plus the new generation of items would create a new crafting, mining, and trading boom.

I believe a more complete and effective marketing strategy is the solution to all of the games issues. This doesnt mean higher advertising costs... it should be organic in nature. A referral is the holy grail of marketing and there are many ways to create player generated referrals.

 

[Corey 'Greyfox']

I believe a more complete and effective marketing strategy is the solution to all of the games issues. This doesnt mean higher advertising costs... it should be organic in nature. A referral is the holy grail of marketing and there are many ways to create player generated referrals.

Very true that MA needs more marketing. Although I would have to disagree with the referral program. Although I like and have survived here, many people I have met in game do not last six months. Of those I met in NEO, and then formed The Guild with, just over a year ago only myself and one other remained playing to join Laudanum. I even met one guy who got a 30k Hof, and then blew 90k in deposits in three months(plus the 30k hof) chasing an ATH, his wife left him because of this, he no longer plays. The point is that this game is hard to play properly, but easy to play like a casino. I would only recommend a friend to this game if I was certain they had patience to play properly and the self restraint to not chase the hof's. Could end up in ruining a real life friendship if I recommend this game to a friend who can't handle it and thus they loose lots of money on it. A referral program could have people getting(and lying to) every tom dick and harry they know to play the game who lack the self restraint needed and thus you end up with lots of disgruntled people quitting the game and giving it negative reviews.
What I think MA needs to do is market EU as free to explore RCE instead of a free to play game with a RCE where you can make money.

 

[golddude]

Sounds like you played SL and liked it. I know some SL players that perfer the tt system here.

What is SL

 

[HardWrath]

I would only recommend a friend to this game if I was certain they had patience to play properly and the self restraint to not chase the hof's. Could end up in ruining a real life friendship if I recommend this game to a friend who can't handle it and thus they loose lots of money on it..

I also have not referred friends and family for fear of them losing more money then they can afford. This point really highlights the fundamental problem with the game which is the costs and risks to play at a mid to high level are too great. I have friends on facebook that are actively seeking a new mmo but I cant bring myself to openly post a reccomendation for the game. The costs and risks can only be reduced by increasing the player base and total overall revenue to MA and planet companies. Its obviously an uphill battle but the good news is that it gets easier with each bit of success.

There are a couple of my friends that have expressed interest in eu recently and if I bring them into the game you can be sure that ill teach them how to play responsibly. The real horror stories usually come when people join the game, deposit big, and go balls to the wall without knowing what they are doing. They end up quiting within a short period and they tell everyone how horrible EU is. All the marketing, PR, and press releases in the world cant change that.

Being referred by an experienced player and taught how to play in a responsible way is perhaps the best and most safe way to enter the game. Once that person has a positive experience then they will be more inclined to tell their friends about EU.

We need a comprehensive solution.

 

[JohnCapital]

Holy crap, over 25 posts and no one's touched on the obvious yet

The base value of an item should be given by it's demand and how hard it was to get/item rarity, not by what MA thinks it should be worth!

Um, ok, then how much would it cost to buy the items from the Trade Terminal? Y'know, ammo, probes, refiner, MF implant, inserter, oh, and lil things like n00b weapons.

Where do you think the term TT comes from?


--added--
Also, from what number do you base decay on? Or does everything work forever and never need to be repaired?
--/added--