Question: Eco of Unlimited Angel vs. Dune Rider

[KyrismaStarsong]

When comparing these 2 armors I see the protections are very similar with the advantage to Dune Rider, especially for the extra penetration and burn. The big differences in the two I see are the lower 3300 durability for Dune Rider vs. 4000 for Angel, and the much higher tt value for Dune Rider.

So my questions are, does the higher tt value, thus the better and longer protection afforded by Dune Rider somehow offset the lower, and thus less eco durability value? And, if so, how does that work? In the end, which ends up being the more eco armor over the course of about a Dante's worth of hunting, or is the difference so negligible that is shouldn't be a concern?

 

[Rave]

I think it used to be theorized that a lower durability with a higher TT would mean lower economy because the decay would be higher. So when comparing the economy, look for an armor with lower TT but higher durability. However, Dune Rider does have move overall protection and uses because of the much higher burn/penetration.

 

[Xen]

I wouldn't worry about 3300 vs 4000.

 

[Dollymaus]

1. the difference because of durability is so negligible that is shouldn't be a concern
2. it seems higher amor decay increases your loot as well

 

[narfi]

I never hunt for more than 1-2hrs per hunt, and haven't had any issues with the low tt of the angel I am borrowing. I have not been hunting at the top of my abilities lately though, so I couldn't say for a higher decay situation where top repair is important.

For normal hunting you are looking at <3% defense decay which also includes your healing.
Even if you are absorbing all the dmg with your armor (which is typicaly more eco) then you would want to compare the differences between the two multiplied by 3%.

So suppose (fictional numbers) that the dune rider decays 25% more than the angel.
On a 1000ped hunt you take 30ped decay with the angel and you take 37.5 decay with the dune rider.
1037.5/1030 = 0.72% difference in your hunting costs.

Suppose that in the same situation 1/2 of your defense is covered by healing. 1000offense + 15ped fap +15ped armor vs 1000/15/18.75 = 1033.75/1030 = 0.36% difference in your hunting costs.

Let me see if i can read up on how the numbers work and get some actual numbers for you.

 

[narfi]

http://www.entropiawiki.com/Page.aspx?page=Armor+Decay



It looks like the difference when going to 3300 durability from 4000 is an increase of 0.73%

So using the 1000ped hunt example with 3% defense it is very negligible.


1000offense + 30ped angel = 1030ped
1000offense + 30.22 Dune = 1030.22ped
1030.22/1030 = 0.021% difference in your hunting costs


1000offense + 15ped fap + 15ped angel = 1030 ped
1000offense + 15ped fap + 15.11ped Dune = 1030.11
1030.11/1030 = 0.01% difference in your hunting costs

11-22 pec difference every 1k ped hunt seems negligible to me IF I did the math right.

Edit: Obviously those numbers increase the higher decay hunting style you do, but still even if you are hitting 9% defense costs which is very high, its still only 33-66pec difference per hunt (even less as your fap ratio will increase)

 

[Rave]

http://www.entropiawiki.com/Page.aspx?page=Armor+Decay



It looks like the difference when going to 3300 durability from 4000 is an increase of 0.73%

So using the 1000ped hunt example with 3% defense it is very negligible.


1000offense + 30ped angel = 1030ped
1000offense + 30.22 Dune = 1030.22ped
1030.22/1030 = 0.021% difference in your hunting costs


1000offense + 15ped fap + 15ped angel = 1030 ped
1000offense + 15ped fap + 15.11ped Dune = 1030.11
1030.11/1030 = 0.01% difference in your hunting costs

11-22 pec difference every 1k ped hunt seems negligible to me IF I did the math right.

Edit: Obviously those numbers increase the higher decay hunting style you do, but still even if you are hitting 9% defense costs which is very high, its still only 33-66pec difference per hunt (even less as your fap ratio will increase)

I think you are looking at the decay difference per mob (perhaps)?

If you look at both armors against Atrox Stalker, the Angel decays 11.89 PEC per hit and Dune Rider decays 10.82 per hit. The Angel protects 7.57 damage/PEC and the Dune Rider protects 7.76 damage/PEC.

The reason is because the Angel has 6 more protection against Atrox than Dune Rider does. I would say this is almost negligible.

But that 1.05 PEC per hit may not make a huge difference over 1000 PED of hunting. If you get hit 1000 times during your hunt, you're talking about a 10 PED difference in repair. 10 more PED per hunt to use the Angel for 6 damage protection more? I suppose overtime that could slightly affect your healing costs, bringing it under 10 PED difference.

*I say 1000 times per hunt, assuming you kill 200 Atrox Stalker and each one averages 5 hits per kill.

Either way it won't make a HUGE difference. If 10 PED is hurting your bank, you shouldn't be hunting at such a level.

 

[narfi]

I think you are looking at the decay difference per mob (perhaps)?

I am talking about this formula, (highlight and go to address)
http://latex.codecogs.com/gif.latex?Decay%20=%20\left(%200.003%20*%20dmg^{1.75}%20+%200.05%20*%20dmg%20\right)%20*%20\left(%201-%20\frac{Durability}{100000}%20\right)

 

[Rave]

I am talking about this formula, (highlight and go to address)
http://latex.codecogs.com/gif.latex?Decay%20=%20\left(%200.003%20*%20dmg^{1.75}%20+%200.05%20*%20dmg%20\right)%20*%20\left(%201-%20\frac{Durability}{100000}%20\right)

You got the numbers about right (but its per hit), but keep in mind the mob itself.

I understand you were assuming that the person is hunting at the 3% eco, but the difference in decay extrapolates out more than 22 PEC, I believe (depending on how tough the mob is).

I'm using the numbers, according to the armor advisor, so keep that in mind. They could be all out of whack

 

[narfi]

You got the numbers about right (but its per hit), but keep in mind the mob itself

no, I just use that formula to establish the difference in cost between the two given the same variables.

IF you took X damage per hunt with angel, and IF you took the same damage per hunt with dune (it will be similar) then the increase in cost will be Y%

It doesn't matter what X is, it will always increase by Y%

So if you take 3% defense decay using angel (just a variable used, not derived from anything specific) then you plug in the numbers I used.

Evade will have no effect, because changing armor does not effect your evade levels. (unless there is some new magic armor or item that does that now?)
Hit rate will have no effect, because changing armor does not effect the hit rate of the creature attacking you. (unless there is some new effect armor that does that as well?)

Does that make sense?

Basicly use Angel as your base, pick a number to use as your cost with it rather theoretical or from actual experience/testing, then multiply that by the increased cost % derived from the formula, and you will know pretty closely what your cost will be with the Dune.

 

[Rave]

Oh, I was only talking about mob hit rate and evader when I was coming up with an average hit rate for my above scenario. I understand that the armor itself has no effect on how often you are hit.

The issue is, with my scenario, is that it comes out 9% defensive cost (just about). However, your numbers show a 20 PEC difference at a 3% cost. My numbers, which came off of the adviser, would show a 10 PED difference at a 9% cost.

Something on Entropedia is wonky I know that, with my armor, I've never had a 9% defensive cost and I usually get hit 3-5 times per Stalker kill. Either way, its not a huge difference in these armors.

 

[KyrismaStarsong]

Thank you guys for the numbers and comparisons. Whether or not the numbers are exactly correct, I can see much easier now what kind of difference in costs we're talking about between the two, and why it does end up becoming a negligible difference. Good info, +rep.

 

[forgo]

Id like to add a couple things related to and beyond the numbers:


The effective protection overall on all mobs per pec can be more optimized with dune rider than you will get with angel over time. Angel is limited to 3 primary defense types which narrows your overall economy via the mob choices, especially with many planets having burn and pen mobs...they aren't just a bot protections anymore.

Add various plates and you can really fine tune many mobs in one set of armor, a bit more effectively with Dune rider imo.

And then there is the gains of utility, more use overall means your tiers raise more often, and your economy can be boosted higher faster via enhancers if you wish, as opposed to if you shared angel with other armors earning a slower progression.

I love my Dune, and I wouldn't take 2 angel sets for it, the utility is invaluable.

 

[MeanMachine]

It all depends what mob you wanna use it for.

 

[MeanMachine]

If you want eco angel is the one,but cant close eyes on those extra burn and pene dune rider has so it makes it more mobs available to hunt for not that bigger price than angel.