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Info: Economy hunting, BLP pistol versus BLP rifle

siremi said:
Dude, I am talking about MAXED skill L guns, if you want to use the Mad IV before you reach lvl 100 then be my guest, you will lose a lot. UL guns are out of this discussion.

I am only investigating the ped markup someone pays for an L gun, and how economic that ped markup is used.
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can you show me proof that i wont get the same payback with madox than any other L gun(90% payback in tt)?
Dont you know that best way to get ahead is to change guns to fit the mob you are hunting?
Lets say i want to hunt drones, that would mean i am looking mainly for the normal loot gazz, in that case i would use a eco gun to try to get more killed with same peds to have more chances to get more gazz
On the other hand Madox may fit better for mobs that drops nice items and crappy normal loot, as my average loot per mob will be higher and i will have more hits in the range of items drops
Considering that asi-30 a 120% has an extra cost of 1.39% of markup
TT cylcled TT payback Markup used Needed Loot to break even Markup % of loot need to break even
10000 9000 139 10139 112,66% Asi-30 A
10000 9000 10000 111,11% Maddox 4

So which one is better again?
 
Boardian Chilix said:
10000 9000 139 10139 112,66% Asi-30 A
10000 9000 10000 111,11% Maddox 4

So which one is better again?
Click to expand...

Please, you need to be maxed on the Maddox 4, and that's a 250000 PED investment in skill, or $25000.

But this is not about UL guns and returns and MA cuts, it's about how eco you use your PED when you pay markup.
 
siremi said:
Please, you need to be maxed on the Maddox 4, and that's a 250000 PED investment in skill, or $25000.

But this is not about UL guns and returns and MA cuts, it's about how eco you use your PED when you pay markup.
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I dont need to have maxed anything to have same tt return in logn term, i may need more peds cycled but thats it, at the end i will have 90% tt with one and with the other
You just keep showing what you want and avoiding what you want
You look like those comercials when they show an actor dressed like scientist, and they tell you how better is their dishwasher...:laugh:
 
mh ....

uneco vs. uneco

1. uneco = uneco
2. uneco = eco

nice one :scratch2:

@Boardian Chilix

Player One got tt return 60 %
Player Two got tt return 80 %
Player Three got tt return 130 %

= 270 % for all = 30 % for MA
 
Acar said:
mh ....

uneco vs. uneco

1. uneco = uneco
2. uneco = eco

nice one :scratch2:

@Boardian Chilix

Player One got tt return 60 %
Player Two got tt return 80 %
Player Three got tt return 130 %

= 270 % for all = 30 % for MA
Click to expand...
Boardian doesnt care abaut eco
Eco was nice 5 years or so ago when system was different
Boardian just cares abaut= markup generated-(markup decayed+10%ttdecayed)
If boardian was to go hunt uneco and were worry abaut his loses he will go mine laters and keep with it until payback kicks them boardian would had profited :cool:
main problem is hunters are just focus minded and they just know to shoot shoot shoot
 
Ok im very new to entropia and there is a very good chance ive missed something obvious in my calculations but this thread was starting to hurt my head and i was bored so here is some random stuff ive calculated using values extracted from entropedia and the average dmg per shot for each gun that someone posted on page 2 of this thread.

Asi-30 Arctic

Shots per 100 ped ammo = 1000000/1460 = 684 shots
Total dmg caused for 100 ped ammo = 684*50.25 = 34371 dmg
Total decay for 100 ped ammo = 684*0.01621 = 11.09 ped
Dmg per ped = 34371/111.09 = 309.4 dmg/ped

Total Shots from gun = 8976
Total Ammo need for shots = 8976*1460 = 13104960
Ped needed for ammo = 13104960/10000 = 1310.5 ped
Total dmg done = 8976*50.25 = 451044 dmg
Damage done per ped = 451044/1460.5 = 308.8 dmg/ped
Dmg per ped @ 20% MU = 451044/1490.5 =302.6 dmg/ped

Apis

Shots per 100 ped ammo = 1000000/1300 = 769 shot
Total dmg caused for 100 ped ammo = 769*49.5 = 38064 dmg
Total decay for 100 ped ammo = 769*0.02987 = 22.97 ped
Dmg per ped = 38064/122.97 = 309.5 dmg/ped

Total Shots from gun = 6658
Totam Ammo need for shots = 6658*1300 = 8655400
Ped needed for ammo = 8655400/10000 = 865.54 ped
Total dmg done = 6658*49.5 = 329571 dmg
Dmg done per ped = 329571/1070.54 = 307.9 dmg/ped
Dmg per ped @ 20% MU = 329571/1111.54 = 296.5dmg/ped

If ive made a mistake somewhere please feel free to point it out to me and i will happily correct it and update my calculations. If being a noob and i have completely failed with the calculations somewhere then please dont hesitate to say.

Also note i know both guns dont sell @ 120% but i just put them both at that to compare.
 
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@ tiduswave

you calculated misses ? ~10%
 
I guess if the miss chance on both guns is the same then this is irrelevant?? I could be wrong again here though.
 
tiduswave said:
I guess if the miss chance on both guns is the same then this is irrelevant?? I could be wrong again here though.
Click to expand...

Arctic = 3,09 dmg/pec without misses = 2,78 dmg/pec with ~10% misses (without mu)

Apis = 3,08 dmg/pex without misses = 2,77 dmg/pec with ~10% misses (without mu)

this results are more realistic and thats relevant i think.

:)
 
Your math is WILDLY off. they use different ammo amounts per shoot.
 
tiduswave said:
Ok im very new to entropia and there is a very good chance ive missed something obvious in my calculations but this thread was starting to hurt my head and i was bored so here is some random stuff ive calculated using values extracted from entropedia and the average dmg per shot for each gun that someone posted on page 2 of this thread.

Asi-30 Arctic

Shots per 100 ped ammo = 1000000/1460 = 684 shots
Total dmg caused for 100 ped ammo = 684*50.25 = 34371 dmg
Total decay for 100 ped ammo = 684*0.01621 = 11.09 ped
Dmg per ped = 34371/111.09 = 309.4 dmg/ped

Total Shots from gun = 8976
Total Ammo need for shots = 8976*1460 = 13104960
Ped needed for ammo = 13104960/10000 = 1310.5 ped
Total dmg done = 8976*50.25 = 451044 dmg
Damage done per ped = 451044/1460.5 = 308.8 dmg/ped
Dmg per ped @ 20% MU = 451044/1490.5 =302.6 dmg/ped

Apis

Shots per 100 ped ammo = 1000000/1300 = 769 shot
Total dmg caused for 100 ped ammo = 769*49.5 = 38064 dmg
Total decay for 100 ped ammo = 769*0.02987 = 22.97 ped
Dmg per ped = 38064/122.97 = 309.5 dmg/ped

Total Shots from gun = 6658
Totam Ammo need for shots = 6658*1300 = 8655400
Ped needed for ammo = 8655400/10000 = 865.54 ped
Total dmg done = 6658*49.5 = 329571 dmg
Dmg done per ped = 329571/1070.54 = 307.9 dmg/ped
Dmg per ped @ 20% MU = 329571/1111.54 = 296.5dmg/ped

If ive made a mistake somewhere please feel free to point it out to me and i will happily correct it and update my calculations. If being a noob and i have completely failed with the calculations somewhere then please dont hesitate to say.

Also note i know both guns dont sell @ 120% but i just put them both at that to compare.
Click to expand...

Your math is ok, but let me just point the relevant economy issue.

ASI-30 Arctic you wrote:
Total dmg done = 8976*50.25 = 451044 dmg

Apis you wrote:
Total dmg done = 6658*49.5 = 329571 dmg

Now, think how much ped in markup you pay for each.

ASI-30 Arctic markup payed:
150 * 0.2 = 30 ped

Apis markup payed:
205 * 0.2 = 41 ped

Now, let's see the real economy :eyecrazy:

Damage of 1 ped markup payed = Total dmg done / Total ped markup payed

ASI-30 Arctic:
451044 / 30 => 15035 damage for each ped markup

Apis:
329571 / 41 => 8038 damage for each ped markup


How much better is the ped markup economy of the ASI-30 Arctic in your calculation:

15035 / 8038 => 1,87 => ASI-30 Arctic is 87% better using your values.

For each 1 PED markup you pay, you get almost double damage points using the pistol.

Now since both guns have equal damage / second, the real question you should ask is:

Is the 58.3m range vs. 30m range worth paying almost 2x times the markup?

If the range saves you armor and fap decay to cover the extra markup or you just don't care or it's too hard changing guns, go for the rifle.

If you want the best markup eco, use the pistol. You may have to pick and choose low agro mobs.

If you want the best of both, use rifle until mob is in pistol range, then switch to pistol.


Entropedia.info states:
Markup based: Dmg/PEC is calculated based on the markup of the weapon, amp and ammo.

Using dante amp and ammo affects the end result of Dmg/PEC. So the markup economy is lost in the damage / pec calculation. Why? Because Apis+dante uses 1600 ammo and ASI-30 Arctic+dante uses 1760 ammo. This creates an artificial decrease of Dmg/PEC of the ASI-30 Arctic, due to the extra ammo cost, almost equalizing the two guns Dmg/PEC by balancing the Apis extra decay with the ASI-30 Arctic extra ammo, and making it SEEM like they are same eco.

Markup based Dmg/PEC of Entropedia is misleading, if not entirely false.

The misleading of "Markup based Dmg/PEC" of Entropedia happens not only on those two select guns, but on ALL the L guns.

Using only the markup to calculate damage / ped payed as markup, reveals the real economy of the L guns.
 
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markup set to 20% on both guns

Asi-30 without amp : 2,814 total mu per shoot : 1,99 %
Asi-30 with beast : 2,858 total mu per shoot : 1,57 %
Asi-30 with dante : 2,893 total mu per shoot : 1,39 %

Apis without amp : 2,766 total mu per shoot : 3,7 %
Apis with beast : 2,82 total mu per shoot : 2,9 %
Apis with dante : 2,858 total mu per shoot : 2,57 %

based on entropiawiki.com weapon compare, entropedia calculates markup only on weapon decay, so nothing new.
 
Aha, found the weapon compare and made a compare only with decay. Check it out:




You can do it yourself here:
http://www.entropiawiki.com/WeaponCompare.aspx

Make sure you put 0.00 in the ammo section and 120% on the decay section.

Result from Entropedia, Dmg / PEC on decay only:
GeoTrek LP485 Apis (L): 12.000
Herman ASI-30 Arctic (L): 23.938

23.938 / 12.000 => 1,99483

Same result, you get 2 damage with ASI done for each 1 damage with Apis, for the markup you pay.
 
siremi said:
Aha, found the weapon compare and made a compare only with decay. Check it out:




You can do it yourself here:
http://www.entropiawiki.com/WeaponCompare.aspx

Make sure you put 0.00 in the ammo section and 120% on the decay section.

Result from Entropedia, Dmg / PEC on decay only:
GeoTrek LP485 Apis (L): 12.000
Herman ASI-30 Arctic (L): 23.938

23.938 / 12.000 => 1,99483

Same result, you get 2 damage with ASI done for each 1 damage with Apis, for the markup you pay.
Click to expand...
More crap:scratch2:
m8 were have you gotten that picture? Apis attacks is 54 dmg/sec,you have 44,5 there:scratch2:
without amp dmg is 40.52 no 31.92 :scratch2:
But keep posting more crap numbers you may convert someone
 
This has to be the most successful troll thread I've seen in quite a while.
 
As someone who would love people to buy the asi-30A's that I craft, I think this thread is basically bollocks. Reality is the majority of the cost of using these two weapons is in the ammo not the decay. Any comparison that ignores ammo is pretty much meaningless.

I think asi-30a is a pretty good weapon but this is not the way to prove it.
 
The whole debate is useless any way since the loot return from both weapons will also be different. This is because loot return is based on both damage done and decay (ammo + weapon decay).

The only thing eco really does is shorten the time interval you need to get an average return. This since uneco weapons have a higher loot fluctuation.
 
rhogenbe said:
The whole debate is useless any way since the loot return from both weapons will also be different. This is because loot return is based on both damage done and decay (ammo + weapon decay).

The only thing eco really does is shorten the time interval you need to get an average return. This since uneco weapons have a higher loot fluctuation.
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Interesting, do you have some stats for that? Like for a weapon with 4 pec decay the variance will be X and for a weapon with 1 pec decay the variance will be X/4?
 
Boardian Chilix said:
More crap:scratch2:
m8 were have you gotten that picture? Apis attacks is 54 dmg/sec,you have 44,5 there:scratch2:
without amp dmg is 40.52 no 31.92 :scratch2:
But keep posting more crap numbers you may convert someone
Click to expand...

It's Entropedia, I think it used unmaxed skill, didn't have 10/10 HA on entropedia for Apis sorry, but you need weapon decay to calculate markup economy.


For the other replies regarding loot return and % return of a lower decay weapon vs. a higher decay weapon:

There are two distinct economy factors that I consider important when deciding on an L weapon.

1) General Weapon economy, Dmg / pec taking in decay, ammo, amp
2) Markup Economy, Dmg / pec taking in decay only

The Apis and ASI-30 Arctic have about the same General Weapon Economy.
The ASI-30 Arctic has 2x better Markup Economy. Apis has greater range that could save armor and fap decay.

General Weapon Economy determines loot.

Markup Economy determines how much you pay extra. This is not counted in loot and is an extra cost. Having a higher extra cost for same dps weapon will on the long term empty your ped card. It could be a reason why rifle only hunters run out of ped faster then pistol hunters...
 
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KijkkiJikki said:
As someone who would love people to buy the asi-30A's that I craft, I think this thread is basically bollocks. Reality is the majority of the cost of using these two weapons is in the ammo not the decay. Any comparison that ignores ammo is pretty much meaningless.

I think asi-30a is a pretty good weapon but this is not the way to prove it.
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think not that this matters, what he wants to prove here, is basically the same as with mining, if i go unamped I need 111.11% MU average on ores to turn in profit because the base return is always 90% in the long run. If i use an amp with lets say 110%MU i have to add those extra costs on top of the 111.11%MU , needing an higher average MU to turn in profit in the long run. His thinking of eco here works the same and is not = traditional form of eco that just uses all the cost. He just adds what is wasted on MU and most Eco = less waste on MU = less MU needed on loot.

Edit: ah yes you gotta add ammo on shot....true that, ammo is the non MU part like the probe, so ammo, decay on gun, MU of decay = cost per shot then and that has to be compared, was a little mislead there


APIS 120% = 16.5844 per shot with MU, 15.987 without = 103,7367 MU per shot, loot MU needed around 115,263% average
ASI-30 arctic 120% = 16.5452 per shot with MU, 16.221 without = 101.9986 MU per shot, loot MU needed around 113.332%

well hes right, at least i need 2% more loot MU with apis if those guns got the same MU to buy, probably because the arctic trades MU decay for more non MU ammo

sidenote: the loot MU values only are right, if you get a perfect kill, which never happens, because you always got some overkill. And they are only right, too, if you dont get anything out of the ordinary ofc. The 90% seems only to be true if you get nthing special, a guess is, 90% base return (minus overkill money), 9%(plus overkill money) into the special pool, 1% revenue.
 
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Boardian Chilix said:
Considering that asi-30 a 120% has an extra cost of 1.39% of markup
TT cylcled TT payback Markup used Needed Loot to break even Markup % of loot need to break even
10000 9000 139 10139 112,66% Asi-30 A
10000 9000 10000 111,11% Maddox 4

So which one is better again?
Click to expand...

Which numbers did you use there for 1.39%? Is the entropedia value of 1.621 cent per shot wrong? If i add the mu of 120% so 1.621 x 1.2 its 1,9452 cent decay with markup per shot , that and 14.60 cent ammo (<- that value correct at entropedia?) i arrive at 16.5452 Cost with MU, instead of 16.221 without MU. 16.221 to 16.5452 it's 101.9986 MU to use this weapon (1.9986% instead of 1.39%) which leads to a 113.332% MU of loot you need.
 
I get it. Comparing economy of guns without including ammo in the equation means you are using them to club mobs. That also explains why you didn't put an amp on them... but wait the extra weight might help. :confused:
 
Snuggins said:
I get it. Comparing economy of guns without including ammo in the equation means you are using them to club mobs. That also explains why you didn't put an amp on them... but wait the extra weight might help. :confused:
Click to expand...

y with extra amp non-L it should be way better on both ofc, as the non MU value increases
 
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