Fix TWEN Drop Rates

[Nanashana]

So, it feels like tieing token drop rates to hp/lv is a terrible idea in the long term as it essentially promotes players to find and optimise as much as possible on one particular type of mob, we've seen this as players move from Fleshrippers to Storm Vortexes to Acolytes to RDI, and some other local maxima in token rates for low turnover players.

My suggestion is relatively simple, Mindark needs to come up with a token drop rate they're happy with, but in the case of this example, I'm going to go with 20 ped cycle per token. If you use their examples of 95% average tt return, then you can roughly equate every token to cost around 1 ped in tt loss.

If token drop rates were then tied to mob hp we would be able to have drop rates that looked more like.

Mob HP	Average Tokens per Kill
10	0.0016
100	0.016
1,000	0.16
6,000	1
12,000	2
60,000	10
1,500,000	250

This would then normalise drop rates according to dps and dpp which is exactly what weapons have been valued around historically, instead of forcing players to converge on exactly the same content (which makes gameplay much much worse due to lag or doing stupid repetitive actions like resetting waves or dungeons) and lets players go back to without the opportunity cost of not farming the current meta token farms.

Not really much more to the suggestion than that, just level the playing field for all in a way that makes sense.

And to answer the most common argument against: "But the ubers with Mod Nano's and t10 BP-130s etc... would be getting the most tokens" is that they still are, it's just the best farming content is now pretty much only available to that group of players.

 

[Angela Draniie Cloud]

Disagree, we’ve seen the meta shift 4-5 times in the last week.

Maybe people will still discover better token ways.

That many meta shifts in 7 days is literally the definition of healthy as token mu drops people are going to go to mobs who have lower hp/lv but also mu. And then can’t forget that the diversity of mobs will change again with Cyrenes event, halloween mayhem (which normally mayhems it’s the only mob killed), gold rush AND xmas mayhem (plus isn’t feffox event soon?)

At this point starting tomorrow enough has been changed that I don’t see a reason for it to change again.

Every level bracket is able to benefit from this event, and I see no reason to change that at this point.

People are having fun and still experimenting with different mobs.

As some switched to Paneleon stalkers, some to araneotrox, etc.

Honestly, I think the amount of different mobs being killed is GREATER than normal from all different levels as more people are grinding.

With all that said, I think Mindark is probably pretty happy with the tokens at this point, although I’m sure they’d prefer low to mid level players NOT profiting.

 

[Nanashana]

Disagree, we’ve seen the meta shift 4-5 times in the last week.

Maybe people will still discover better token ways.

That many meta shifts in 7 days is literally the definition of healthy as token mu drops people are going to go to mobs who have lower hp/lv but also mu. And then can’t forget that the diversity of mobs will change again with Cyrenes event, halloween mayhem (which normally mayhems it’s the only mob killed), gold rush AND xmas mayhem (plus isn’t feffox event soon?)

At this point starting tomorrow enough has been changed that I don’t see a reason for it to change again.

Every level bracket is able to benefit from this event, and I see no reason to change that at this point.

People are having fun and still experimenting with different mobs.

As some switched to Paneleon stalkers, some to araneotrox, etc.

Honestly, I think the amount of different mobs being killed is GREATER than normal from all different levels as more people are grinding.

With all that said, I think Mindark is probably pretty happy with the tokens at this point, although I’m sure they’d prefer low to mid level players NOT profiting.

I think you entirely missed the point of my post, the whole meta-shifting and people swapping mobs and moving around to try and maximise their token rates is part of the problem at the moment. If you want to maximise returns in the game it's normally about optimisation and this current distribution actually reduces player agency if they want to optimise.

I'm just saying it's not a far-fetched ask for normalized token drop rates.

 

[jetsina]

although I’m sure they’d prefer low to mid level players NOT profiting.

Maybe the devs believed what they told My, and My believed what she passed on to us. Maybe they are now trying to work out why the 'formula' is doing what it is.
OR, it was the AI that designed it, but didn't tell anyone that it was aiming to introduce Fibonacci behaviour amongst the playerbase.
Anyway, I also think it is broadly working the right way as it is - not perfect by any means, but finally an interesting study as a good place to start if I were designing something like this!

edit: Nana: "this current distribution actually reduces player agency if they want to optimise." Does it? How? By not being as clear as usual, isn't there more scope this time?

 

[Angela Draniie Cloud]

I think you entirely missed the point of my post, the whole meta-shifting and people swapping mobs and moving around to try and maximise their token rates is part of the problem at the moment. If you want to maximise returns in the game it's normally about optimisation and this current distribution actually reduces player agency if they want to optimise.

I'm just saying it's not a far-fetched ask for normalized token drop rates.

I think it's okay, people are still discovering what is the best method.

Things DON'T need to be discovered right away. That's why the game is fun, because things are changing.

Think about when people didn't know what mobs dropped what resources and items? People had to figure that out, kill different mobs.

THIS IS HAPPENING AGAIN! AND THAT'S A GOOD THING. Not just for mindark, but for the player base who doesn't want everything spoonfed to them or likes theory crafting and discovering new methods to do things.

The game feels fresh for the first time in a while because it's not just "go kill mayhem".

I've loved having discussions of what to kill at what level range and what the locations of some of these never killed mobs are located. People are having fun. Ubers are doing the same thing as always, but others are having fun.

 

[Nanashana]

edit: Nana: "this current distribution actually reduces player agency if they want to optimise." Does it? How? By not being as clear as usual, isn't there more scope this time?

If players are doing there homework and actively testing out what drops what and at what rates they may be forced with a choice:

- Activity A: 600 tokens/hour
- Activity B: 150 tokens/hour
- Activity C: 120 tokens/hour
- Activity Baseline: 50-60 tokens/hour

If players are presented with those options, most would understandably go for activity A, as there's a HUGE opportunity cost to not doing the most optimal activity in the game at the time (markup-wise). Compounded by the fact that the players who farm the tokens the fastest actually exacerbate the problem for those who get tokens elsewhere as they increase the supply faster (thus reducing prices faster).

My argument is that with hp/level being the focus of optimisation there are very few sources of activities that are good compared to normal hunting.

 

[Gopher]

MA said higher level mobs have a greater chance at looting tokens, of course the cheapest highest lvl mob is going to be meta and theres nothing bad about it. This game is all about change and adapting to the meta. There are plenty of mobs that are good to kill for the TWEN event, just look at what the ubers are hunting on EL.

 

[Angela Draniie Cloud]

MA said higher level mobs have a greater chance at looting tokens, of course the cheapest highest lvl mob is going to be meta and theres nothing bad about it. This game is all about change and adapting to the meta. There are plenty of mobs that are good to kill for the TWEN event, just look at what the ubers are hunting on EL.

Wasn’t literally EVERYONE killing araneatrox for fen? This is so much healthier

 

[The Great Adventurer]

I wonder how many tokens Hussk gives

 

[Sulje]

So, it feels like tieing token drop rates to hp/lv is a terrible idea in the long term as it essentially promotes players to find and optimise as much as possible on one particular type of mob, we've seen this as players move from Fleshrippers to Storm Vortexes to Acolytes to RDI, and some other local maxima in token rates for low turnover players.

My suggestion is relatively simple, Mindark needs to come up with a token drop rate they're happy with, but in the case of this example, I'm going to go with 20 ped cycle per token. If you use their examples of 95% average tt return, then you can roughly equate every token to cost around 1 ped in tt loss.

If token drop rates were then tied to mob hp we would be able to have drop rates that looked more like.

Mob HP	Average Tokens per Kill
10	0.0016
100	0.016
1,000	0.16
6,000	1
12,000	2
60,000	10
1,500,000	250

This would then normalise drop rates according to dps and dpp which is exactly what weapons have been valued around historically, instead of forcing players to converge on exactly the same content (which makes gameplay much much worse due to lag or doing stupid repetitive actions like resetting waves or dungeons) and lets players go back to without the opportunity cost of not farming the current meta token farms.

Not really much more to the suggestion than that, just level the playing field for all in a way that makes sense.

And to answer the most common argument against: "But the ubers with Mod Nano's and t10 BP-130s etc... would be getting the most tokens" is that they still are, it's just the best farming content is now pretty much only available to that group of players.

I was about to open support case suggesting the same, token gain according to creature hp, not level. Better for players, better for MA.

 

[Nanashana]

I wonder how many tokens Hussk gives

4 if the current changes are anything to go on

 

[Sulje]

I think it's okay, people are still discovering what is the best method.

Things DON'T need to be discovered right away. That's why the game is fun, because things are changing.

Think about when people didn't know what mobs dropped what resources and items? People had to figure that out, kill different mobs.

THIS IS HAPPENING AGAIN! AND THAT'S A GOOD THING. Not just for mindark, but for the player base who doesn't want everything spoonfed to them or likes theory crafting and discovering new methods to do things.

The game feels fresh for the first time in a while because it's not just "go kill mayhem".

I've loved having discussions of what to kill at what level range and what the locations of some of these never killed mobs are located. People are having fun. Ubers are doing the same thing as always, but others are having fun.

You misunderstood the point, currently if you kill biggest mobs in game, you get only a few tokens, while before silent update couple of days ago you could loot up to 22. People are back to vortex and flesh rippers, which is the best mob in game atm when it comes to looting the tokens. If this were HP based, everyone would get what they deserve at their skill and investment level.

 

[Alina]

They SAID based on level but they meant hp/level > we kill tho 160 level spina and get 20-30 tokens in a hour, sound fair to me haha

 

[NevadaJake]

I tried the new SPINA for a while and it was bad. Flesh Rippers / Old Jacks seem much better.

 

[Gopher]

They SAID based on level but they meant hp/level > we kill tho 160 level spina and get 20-30 tokens in a hour, sound fair to me haha

How many lvl 160 spina do you kill vs fleshrippers/vortex per hour?

 

[Alina]

How many lvl 160 spina do you kill vs fleshrippers/vortex per hour?

thats the problem, you put same amount of peds on a shit mob and you get more tokens, its broken

 

[Gopher]

thats the problem, you put same amount of peds on a shit mob and you get more tokens, its broken

different mobs are good for different things, spina are just not one of the mobs good for TWEN

 

[Angela Draniie Cloud]

You misunderstood the point, currently if you kill biggest mobs in game, you get only a few tokens, while before silent update couple of days ago you could loot up to 22. People are back to vortex and flesh rippers, which is the best mob in game atm when it comes to looting the tokens. If this were HP based, everyone would get what they deserve at their skill and investment level.

No I completely understand the point. I just disagree with it.

 

[Legends]

different mobs are good for different things, spina are just not one of the mobs good for TWEN

I predict Spina will be pretty good mu-wise very soon, we need lots of Carapace for them new BPs...

 

[dimod]

I predict Spina will be pretty good mu-wise very soon, we need lots of Carapace for them new BPs...

i got 5 drop of carpace in 2 days of shooting. unless the big ones drop it more often there will never be enough of carapace if it is used in something decent.

 

[Legends]

i got 5 drop of carpace in 2 days of shooting. unless the big ones drop it more often there will never be enough of carapace if it is used in something decent.

I think MA is keeping drop rates low at the beginning because they want to make sure that the mu goes high on these things. If the auction is flooded, mu might not go high enough, but if the scarcity is maintained long enough, some of us will eventually get impatient and pay more, even if just for the sake of the discovery of some of these new items.

 

[Thark]

what BP?

 

[MikeH]

I predict Spina will be pretty good mu-wise very soon, we need lots of Carapace for them new BPs...

Will be nice if u could post the screenshot of bps if u have

 

[fastped]

Wasn’t literally EVERYONE killing araneatrox for fen? This is so much healthier

Actually no cause FEN was just overall a better event, people hunted different creatures that had creature specific items in them like for example argonauts, thorifoids and FFA Mayhem.

 

[ColonelBuckshot]

I do agree. Pretty annoying hunting some lame low HP mob. Tokens should scale with HP. Multiple tokens on 1 kill need to ve possible so the drops scale properly with mob HP and not be tied to level.

It would give you freedom to hunt whatever you want and not feel forced to do a single boring activity.

 

[Angela Draniie Cloud]

Actually no cause FEN was just overall a better event, people hunted different creatures that had creature specific items in them like for example argonauts, thorifoids and FFA Mayhem.

People are hunting different creatures now.

Mecha Lupine, Troopers, araneatrox, calumasoid rdi, crystal palace, flesh rippers, gonna be halloween maybem, christmas mayhem,.

 

[fastped]

People are hunting different creatures now.

Mecha Lupine, Troopers, araneatrox, calumasoid rdi, crystal palace, flesh rippers, gonna be halloween maybem, christmas mayhem,.

nope just hp per lvl all what people hunt. Afk instance i dont even bother counting at all. Its like saying, people still do mayhem... no shit sherlock ofc people keep do the best event which is instanced and done 24 7.

Looks like you missed the point here. You said people didnt hunt different creatures but they did and hp per lvl wasnt the thing it was mix of all creatures. Now its directly and only hp per lvl. But thats the logical consequense if you have only tokens and no items. Without changing the system to something somewhat better its just boring same shit works thing.

 

[Angela Draniie Cloud]

But thats the logical consequense if you have only tokens and no items. Without changing the system to something somewhat better

I agree that peak would be items in loot AND tokens so people got to choose what they want to go for tokens or items.

Mindark can't code that though. They don't even understand that Level does not = HP/LV

 

[fastped]

I agree that peak would be items in loot AND tokens so people got to choose what they want to go for tokens or items.

Mindark can't code that though. They don't even understand that Level does not = HP/LV

Mindark know some stuff and some other stuff they might not know. But what they know for sure is that they really not wanting the players to do good. Last decisions they made was purely based on how do we milk the players most with giving them the least possible. FEN event > Split Items and Tokens > make tokens less valueable > Maximum time with minimal mu gain > people forced to grind none stop. Phase 1 was Items randomly given out and Phase 2 is now Tokens only with nothing else in loot not even limited items. They are on the super greed mode if you ask me and prolly many other players.

 

[tBANNA]

Without changing the system to something somewhat better its just boring same shit works thing.

oh u mean something really different and dynamic based on joy and excitement , umm something not boring at all ... just like priv instances?

molochs, marcimex, tide claws, paneleons, neomex and who knows what else?

all based only on HP u mean? brilliant


yeah looks not boring at all.