future of looter and eff.?

[Entropia Dao]

We know that higher efficiency + looter level lead to better % return.
Now, there is a little catch here when we see looter level steadily rising for players and high eff. weapons being bought from the MM vendor.
The catch is, how will MA/PP/CLD holders get paid?

It is true that people with higher return will play more and the effect might not be that big.
But what for people that don't have enough time to lose the same amount of ped?

You could lower the general payout but, but that would hurt newer players with low looter levels and eff. even harder; upto the point that MA isn't going to retain any new/returning players.
And changing the rules about eff./looter a couple years in the future doesn't seem to be a fair option either.

 

[Katie Chalmers]

It may seem counter intuitive at first, but mindark need to dangle enough carrots in front of us to generate the demand for grinding. But it’s the simple reality that only a small percentage of players will complete such a journey, due to the exponential difficulty to progress the higher you go. There will be plenty that will never recover the sunk time and PED costs that they have racked up along the way, and this counterbalances the few profitable Ubers that do indeed end up with low enough losses to profit from markup.
Profits will be safe for a while yet.

For every Messi/Yaxuki success story, there are a thousand keen players that will be drawn in by it, and lose their shit along the way.

 

[Msturlese]

@ Entropia DAO: return for players is Capped. imho game is zero sum TT so... you get 0.5% off codex in skills, get 1% in skill from green lines reward (you can exploit some this with "death roll bonus" to a smaller higher amountt then there is a 0.5% of "GLOBAL POOL" can we can we call it JACKPOT once for all ? and the remaining is 98% that is effectively the average published in 2017 from MA.

Players loose to the "House" 2% to play, of which 0.2 to 0.7% is returned in shraps conversion.
players loose to the house ALL TEH MARKUP ON EQUIP (YESL ELM WEAPONS SOLD AT 200 PED MAKE YOU LOOSE 199 PED... there is a nice post on this totally forgotten
[EDIT: For the avoidance of doubt that is not MA profit, it is cashed in from the ELM item seller as pure MU that will NEVER be returned in loot calculation]
Players consider swirls profit but it is included in the 98.5% cap

Ubers make profit from MU Sale as the first day player, they do not return over unit (it is not me, THEY confirmed it

ON AVERAGE the playerbase return 98%... who follows all attentions goes near that number also with non-maximized gears,
profitable players apart some longshot that is temporary,

rely on
Box Sales, Mayhem items sales, rare drops from "higher difficulty kills" and Brain and Heart oil sales for the hutners, deep miing for miners, gambling attitude for crafters, FOMO for resellers.

So if we all fight with 98.5% return MA makes exact amount of money that makes actually, namely 2.5m profit per year that is equivalent of 30% of sold PED (at least last yeaer, 2020 amortized the pet fight errors)

citing keynes "There is no free lunch in EU" / citing italian saying on statistics "if i eat 2 chicken and you starve, statistically we had 1 chicken each"

Perception....deception....RCE

 

[wizz]

We know that higher efficiency + looter level lead to better % return.
Now, there is a little catch here when we see looter level steadily rising for players and high eff. weapons being bought from the MM vendor.
The catch is, how will MA/PP/CLD holders get paid?

It is true that people with higher return will play more and the effect might not be that big.
But what for people that don't have enough time to lose the same amount of ped?

You could lower the general payout but, but that would hurt newer players with low looter levels and eff. even harder; upto the point that MA isn't going to retain any new/returning players.
And changing the rules about eff./looter a couple years in the future doesn't seem to be a fair option either.

Good question which I asked myself many times.

If the average return of the player base is 96% and more and more folks get high eff weapons and looter skills, meaning, more people will come close to the 98%, will that mean the rest of the players base will get even less returns to compensate this higher returns?

 

[Shamshe]

When it all becomes unbalanced they will just release loot 3.0

 

[I Ruskov I]

Or push the actual step down
better gear ect..

 

[ProActive Mango]

I smell loot 3.0 in the making!

 

[Evey]

MA said on several occasions that their source of income is from decay, which is not the same with the PED lost due to lower eff / looter. Those PEDs go into the loot pool which is used to pay the bonuses (big loots and ATHs).
MA/PP/CLD get payed from the decay, totally unrelated with the % tt return a player has.

 

[Shamshe]

MA said on several occasions that their source of income is from decay, which is not the same with the PED lost due to lower eff / looter. Those PEDs go into the loot pool which is used to pay the bonuses (big loots and ATHs).
MA/PP/CLD get payed from the decay, totally unrelated with the % tt return a player has.

The question could be unrelated to cld's aswell. What if to many players get to 100 looter and to many high eff weapons are on the market what happens to the lootpool then? The rich get richer and the poor get poorer? Wasnt this the exact reason 2.0 was needed? well this and crit being broken I know it's all about MU now but what do you think is gonne happen to the mu when everyone starts getting 98-99% returns Saying only 1% will ever reach looter 100 is a lie. I dont play much and i usualy take long breaks and I got up to 80 looter in like 2 years and there are many players like me out there.

 

[GeorgeSkywalker]

MA said on several occasions that their source of income is from decay, which is not the same with the PED lost due to lower eff / looter. Those PEDs go into the loot pool which is used to pay the bonuses (big loots and ATHs).
MA/PP/CLD get payed from the decay, totally unrelated with the % tt return a player has.

This is what I was thinking. However, I didn't want to say it in case it may have changed with loot 2.0.

 

[SoberPhil]

MA said on several occasions that their source of income is from decay, which is not the same with the PED lost due to lower eff / looter. Those PEDs go into the loot pool which is used to pay the bonuses (big loots and ATHs).
MA/PP/CLD get payed from the decay, totally unrelated with the % tt return a player has.

So how do you deduce decay from crafting? Nothing's decaying when you craft, only the PED card sometimes. Don't the same principles apply to everything?

 

[Evey]

So how do you deduce decay from crafting? Nothing's decaying when you craft, only the PED card sometimes. Don't the same principles apply to everything?

Good question to address in the next AMA.

 

[Shamshe]

So how do you deduce decay from crafting? Nothing's decaying when you craft, only the PED card sometimes. Don't the same principles apply to everything?

L BP's decay

 

[BruuD]

Don't worry guys. I'll keep dropping a couple of hundred bucks a month to keep the loot pool filled up nicely.
No high eff/dpp for me

 

[Msturlese]

@ Soberphil i think that "dividing" activities into several different thigs is a mistake due to out attitude to make "categories"
IMHO all "player activity" is same for loot engine, you can get a multipolier in the hunting activity or crafting or mining (not healing, it is just cost to replenish but it is evidence that hunting with a healer make him get returns for cost inserted in the mob "Cost to kill"

So personally i think that the 95% cap for crafters ( 100 /95 = 105.25% Breal even in the long run) is not ALL YOU GOT. i think that there is some "equalization process" that returns the missin 3- 4% in the form of Swirls in one of the 3 activities (crafting does not have codex so might reward some more to equalize the 0.5% missing reward). Crafting is like maxing the gears in looter and efficiency because you are maxed in the BP level and axed int eh Craft skill needed.
also the "90% (non SIB) BP" are not leadint to 90% return (well they are) but probably the balance comes back into the 3 "Activity" .. the loss is MU on materials that goes into MU to be applied on product.

that explains how comes that some "shrapnel crafters" are in the run after some craft loss rewarded in Gorgon waves as an example.

MA said "there is not a personal loot pool" but never denied an "equalization process"

 

[wizz]

MA said on several occasions that their source of income is from decay, which is not the same with the PED lost due to lower eff / looter. Those PEDs go into the loot pool which is used to pay the bonuses (big loots and ATHs).
MA/PP/CLD get payed from the decay, totally unrelated with the % tt return a player has.

So, if we would only use CDF/ELM weapons, would that mean MA would not get any more income?

 

[Art Jennifer]

MA can't just get their pay from decay. That would be a terrible business model. One source of income... I imagine there are multiple hidden costs in there, which they will not disclose as it'll be sensitive.

However, with that said. This is MA...

 

[wizz]

MA can't just get their pay from decay. That would be a terrible business model. One source of income... I imagine there are multiple hidden costs in there, which they will not disclose as it'll be sensitive.

However, with that said. This is MA...

There's so much m ore MA makes money on.

Auction fees.
Deposit/withdrawl fees.
Things like oil/ME use for transportation/teleportation
Equip decay
etc
Those are all things not returned in loot.

 

[SoberPhil]

@ Soberphil i think that "dividing" activities into several different thigs is a mistake due to out attitude to make "categories"
IMHO all "player activity" is same for loot engine, you can get a multipolier in the hunting activity or crafting or mining (not healing, it is just cost to replenish but it is evidence that hunting with a healer make him get returns for cost inserted in the mob "Cost to kill"

So personally i think that the 95% cap for crafters ( 100 /95 = 105.25% Breal even in the long run) is not ALL YOU GOT. i think that there is some "equalization process" that returns the missin 3- 4% in the form of Swirls in one of the 3 activities (crafting does not have codex so might reward some more to equalize the 0.5% missing reward). Crafting is like maxing the gears in looter and efficiency because you are maxed in the BP level and axed int eh Craft skill needed.
also the "90% (non SIB) BP" are not leadint to 90% return (well they are) but probably the balance comes back into the 3 "Activity" .. the loss is MU on materials that goes into MU to be applied on product.

that explains how comes that some "shrapnel crafters" are in the run after some craft loss rewarded in Gorgon waves as an example.

MA said "there is not a personal loot pool" but never denied an "equalization process"

Yes I agree.

--

And I remember one official saying that when you repair an item it's just PED transfered from one place to another, nothing more to it. I'm pretty sure MA's revenue comes from deposits They just gotta make sure they get more than they give and account for expenses., that's where decay and other factor come into play.

 

[Nik-Elas]

There's so much m ore MA makes money on.

Auction fees.
Deposit/withdrawl fees.
Things like oil/ME use for transportation/teleportation
Equip decay
etc
Those are all things not returned in loot.

Bet just auction fees and all the pills make up quite a nice chunk for MA

 

[Evey]

So, if we would only use CDF/ELM weapons, would that mean MA would not get any more income?

Yes. Hence the reduced availability. You should not worry too much that MA would get too little, there are very few such weapons. You would put attachments on them, you would generate decay from defence costs (if applicable ofc). The usage of ELM stimulates the economy OTOH, generating MU for players that farm ELM weapons...

 

[Msturlese]

Reading the balance account of MA they dont even care of what we are writing.

simply the accounting model is:
1. i sold 100 PED
2. i set up a "reserve" of 30 ped for reimbursing the statistical amount withdrawn from player
3. 70 ped i sold are MY Profit and i use them for my operating expenses.


Ma does not care at all of who gains what, the accounting is made on PED PURCHSED and SOLD by players.
ON TOP there is income detailes from Wizz, even if we must accoutn for "MOST of decay on armor is returned" ...most can be 75% (Turret test) or 98% (average loot paid) (i would add welding activity, it returns skill but no product, i think it is TTloss not refunded in loot pool)

Why 30% ? think avout "UL" arnors... they are worse than limited.... max defense is jsut on top repair.... locked ped.... all armors that are in game will be 90% full repaired.
if we account the 1000 ped per 10.000 player there is 10.000.000 PED that WILL NEVER BE withdrawn
same for plates, those work just if fully paid.
Quest line cost to activate instances in Nextisland. (680 ped for moloch, 200 for forest)
the bug on HEART VI that stole a small bleed of PEC never refunded to owners for years.
there are many ped-sinking activities in game that summed up after a 20 year company experience lead to KNOW that 70% of purchased ped will be destroyed in time and never got back.
and there goes "invest in your avatar" statement.

the gamers must understand that 70% of their capital is statistically going to be burned and this is an "Economic PVP" game. when you see an ATH or a HOF you can say Congratulation but be aware that a players that win big is drying the 30% PED destianted to survive to the Economic War.

 

[Msturlese]

Yes. Hence the reduced availability. You should not worry too much that MA would get too little, there are very few such weapons. You would put attachments on them, you would generate decay from defence costs (if applicable ofc). The usage of ELM stimulates the economy OTOH, generating MU for players that farm ELM weapons...

i Can't resist.. if Who drops ELM makes money, MA is neutral... guess who pays ?

Evey you are always transparent and adding value to the posts. too many ppl is hearing but not listening....Thank you

 

[wizz]

Yes. Hence the reduced availability. You should not worry too much that MA would get too little, there are very few such weapons. You would put attachments on them, you would generate decay from defence costs (if applicable ofc). The usage of ELM stimulates the economy OTOH, generating MU for players that farm ELM weapons...

So according to you, MA would make more money from me using a 100 ped tt rifle than from a 1ped ELM rifle?
Totally disregarding the fact that the 100 ped weapon uses less ammo than the 1ped ELM weapon.
Cost per shot is the same for both rifles (ammo+decay), but apparently the income for MA is different?
I find that hard to believe.

 

[Katie Chalmers]

So according to you, MA would make more money from me using a 100 ped tt rifle than from a 1ped ELM rifle?
Totally disregarding the fact that the 100 ped weapon uses less ammo than the 1ped ELM weapon.
Cost per shot is the same for both rifles (ammo+decay), but apparently the income for MA is different?
I find that hard to believe.

Lets give thanks for all the melee users out there that put the CEOs children through college.

I remember seeing this quote somewhere that Eve is talking about, however I interpreted "decay" a little more colloquially to also include ammo stack decay. Throw 100 ped of combined expenditure into the system and get 95-98 PED back, MA take their skim from the top, any other way just doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

 

[wizz]

Lets give thanks for all the melee users out there that put the CEOs children through college.

I remember seeing this quote somewhere that Eve is talking about, however I interpreted "decay" a little more colloquially to also include ammo stack decay. Throw 100 ped of combined expenditure into the system and get 95-98 PED back, MA take their skim from the top, any other way just doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

Exactly. Good point. According to Evey the melee users would be the best contributors.
Hence I think that statement from Evey is totally flawed.
Cost per shot is cost per shot, regardless if it is generated by ammo use or decay.

 

[Msturlese]

with loot 2.0 it is pretty clear that the PED IN - PED OUT system is implemented.
Total cost to kill is the input to the randomizer for calculationg loot
(otherwise ModMerc and IMK2 would be best in game with 0.25 pec per shot decay)

 

[Evey]

There's so much m ore MA makes money on.

Auction fees.
Deposit/withdrawl fees.
Things like oil/ME use for transportation/teleportation
Equip decay
etc
Those are all things not returned in loot.

The idea was that MA's profit being from decay and not from the tt return difference which varies greatly over time. Decay being the same per shot, looter level increase won't diminish MA's profit.
Decay charged by MA could be the same from a camo stalker (non ELM) as from an ELM camo - impossible to test, doubt MA would answer this. It can be as Katie says, decay seen by MA can be different. I'm not sure which one is true, can be either of them... (actual tool decay or fixed % cut from turnover).

Decay charged by MAs will definitely be the same with one of those weapons on a good run (globals, HOFs) and with the same weapon on a bad run, so independent from tt return %...

 

[wizz]

The idea was that MA's profit being from decay and not from the tt return difference which varies greatly over time. Decay being the same per shot, looter level increase won't diminish MA's profit.
Decay charged by MA could be the same from a camo stalker (non ELM) as from an ELM camo - impossible to test, doubt MA would answer this. It can be as Katie says, decay seen by MA can be different. I'm not sure which one is true, can be either of them... (actual tool decay or fixed % cut from turnover).

Decay charged by MAs will definitely be the same with one of those weapons on a good run (globals, HOFs) and with the same weapon on a bad run, so independent from tt return %...

Yes, that seems clear te me,
Regardless of your return, MA will take a fixed cut.
But not just from decay but from your total turnover. (tt + ammo)

 

[Jhereg]

I think MA/PP does take more % from those with lower efficiency and lower looter than those with higher efficiency and higher looter.

Think: 1 - (Your TT return %) goes away forever in the end, and that's the cut that goes to MA/PP, minus any type of TT payback. This can be thought of how much you decay into the system, or the entropy of the system...

But since lower efficiency/lower looter tend to be at a lower cycle, the difference in absolute numbers that MA/PP takes from the decay is lessened.

at 2000 cycle/hr, and 99% tt return, that's 20 ped/hr spent versus at 200 cycle/hr and 90% tt return, it is still 20 ped/hr spent (as an example). Of course, guns with the kinds of efficiencies and looter lvls to reach these tt values are not common.

Also realize, to reach 100 looter lvl in one profession, let alone all three, takes quite a large number of peds cycled, and therefore peds paid out to MA.