Get involved: Help test hunting

[PopFuzz]

Actually thinking about what some people have said in this thread, there may be a cap to the amount you spend on a mob that will be compensated. By that I mean it may be 2-3 times the normal cost to kill a mob. Any more spent then that will not be compensated. For example letting a mob regen more then 2-3 times full will not be compensated and overamping too much may also not be full compensated.

Its a hypothesis worth studying with this data and possible finding that magic number. Maybe e13 or e14 may be the magic overamping amp to stick on an Oppalo to still get the same tt return etc.

 

[Leona]

Well, at least there's no doubting the Mod. FAP.

Only as long as people keep believing that markup in loot is "random".

 

[DoubleWolf]

Questions I still have and want to test:

I'm just gonna go ahead and copy and paste mine from a few weeks ago from another thread:

There's a test I've always wanted to do (or at least see the results of) that in theory could answer [the question of predetermined TT return].

Take two miners. One miner (miner A) will be the control, the other (miner B) the guinea pig, if you will. Both miners will check for the exact same type of resources, using the exact same equipment for a minimum of 1000 drops.

Have miner A lead the way and drop where ever they wish. After the drop and the results of the drop are determined, have miner B come in and drop on the exact same spot. As anyone who has tried mining in an area that has recently been covered can probably tell you, you don't get a lot of finds combing through that area. Your returns suffer. It's not until you get out of that area that you start to get claims again.

In theory, miner A should have a much better return because they found the resource first, if there is one. Miner B will inevitably find a few resources just from what would otherwise be a double bomb, but for the most part should have poor returns.

There are two things we are looking for from this test. The first is while doing the test. Are Miner B's finds that he does get larger than average to make up for the losses? The second is what happens to Miner B's finds AFTER doing this test and setting off again on his own.

For the results of this to work out in favor of the [predetermined average return] theory, then unsuccessful finds dropped in areas just covered by another person will eventually count toward a larger find down the road. It would seem rather unfair to code the game differently as it's possible that a player could always just happen to mine right after someone else and always have poor returns. However if the system is 100% random, then that scenario is entirely possible.

 

[Einstein]

When Einstein is done selling his I might try pick holes in that

It is allready proven that mod fap gives you higher loot

No need to waste energy to try and pick holes in a fact

 

[|| Sachi ||]

You still have no tests at all comparing weapons.

You have tests comparing amps.

Stop trying to claim your amp tests prove anything to do with weapons.

Correct, although I think tests without amps will more than likely show a similar pattern. But, it would be nice to see some tests without amps.

 

[Torschen]

Interesting, and somewhat unbelievable. For me the bottomline remains (with the excuse observing that the possible multiplier does not help with nolooters) to focus on eco.

 

[mrproper]

Interesting, and somewhat unbelievable. For me the bottomline remains (with the excuse observing that the possible multiplier does not help with nolooters) to focus on eco.

Consider the following:
- you use 3.0 eco
- everyone uses 2.0 eco
- mindark doesn't keep anything but decay

WHY are the 2.0 eco people still having a decent return, and you with 3.0 eco not making a profit in TT.

Consider then the following:
- people spend 1 ped tt per trox
- people spend 3 ped tt per trox
- they receive similar returns in the long run

WHY are the people with 1.0 eco receiving their expenditure at the same rate as the 3.0 eco people?

You may also consider the following:
- gambling regulations require system to provide 50%+ return in a specified number of rolls
- Entropia.exe gives you at least 50% TT back in any combination of 100 mobs or mining drops or craft attempts
- Entropia.exe gives you randomly distributed against a log curve bonus payouts in an attempt to return your avatar value to 100% deposited TT

WHY do you still think you are right?!

 

[DoubleWolf]

Still waiting for someone to do not only the test I mentioned a few posts ago, but also a test on the return using a weapon such as the ASG-2 Swine Deluxe that has a Dmg/Pec ratio of less than 2... It would certainly help settle the debate on the importance of eco...

Entropia.exe gives you at least 50% TT back in any combination of 100 mobs or mining drops or craft attempts

Well, to be honest, I have had returns where I had at least 100 loot generating opportunities that brought me back less than 50%. My worst run ever recorded with that many opportunities came back with a 31.03% return. Certainly not common, but it is possible...

 

[Piotr]

What i would be interested too see is that whether over-defending urself (uber-big armor compared to mob) have affect on loot also or not. Cause i saw many ppl at aurlis telling me its worth them to stand there with 20 mobs on them in supremacy/angel etc cause decay goes bck to loot

 

[M Rufen Power]

What i would be interested too see is that whether over-defending urself (uber-big armor compared to mob) have affect on loot also or not. Cause i saw many ppl at aurlis telling me its worth them to stand there with 20 mobs on them in supremacy/angel etc cause decay goes bck to loot

What is happening is the system can see you using up lets say 5peds a minute, so it thinks you are a big spender forcing the game to flush out a global or hof, like a small jackpot. That is all it is doing & I've started to notice it doesnt always pay off in the short term so this is something these people do constantly. I can tell you that my gaming style has changed from 1 mob at a time to 20 at a time & I've seen my globals triple or quadruple this month from previous months from what it used to be.

I get globals on a more frequent basis now as I'm tanking mob hits, so you have one hunter hunting eco or casually then another player comes on ur radar has 20 mobs on him all the time, the system can see you spending 1ped per minute and him 5ped per minute who do you think will global first? I have yet to confirm whether this strategy will give you back all of your expenditure, but atm it doesnt seem to be.

 

[Nuno Bunero]

edit.........................

 

[Piotr]

But i cant see how is def decay counted in loot. Wep decay (without misses) counted on each mob according to this thread. How is def cost "calculated" then? Is it bound to char? Or mob? Cause i see 4-5 mobs runnin constantly from 1 person to another at cp.

 

[mrproper]

But i cant see how is def decay counted in loot. Wep decay (without misses) counted on each mob according to this thread. How is def cost "calculated" then? Is it bound to char? Or mob? Cause i see 4-5 mobs runnin constantly from 1 person to another at cp.

I could be as easy as 2.5% from your expenses is kept by "the house", the 97.5% should be returned to the player. When you use armor decay and and an unskilled gun you still get your returns, it's just more varied in small loots and big globals. Think of it like the tax on LAs, instead this would be GLOBAL TAX AREA.

Remember Stryker using a 2% decay weapon on his 1000000 shots hunting experiment and having a small profit? Do you know what the decay percentage is for TT items? So many theories, nothing can be really formulated because of the randomness and noise in the loot returns. Now with more crap items in them (you get like 30 stacks of stuff from a single mob population).

 

[Nuno Bunero]

Remember Stryker using a 2% decay weapon on his 1000000 PED hunting experiment and having a small profit? Do you know what the decay percentage is for TT items? So many theories, nothing can be really formulated because of the randomness and noise in the loot returns. Now with more crap items in them (you get like 30 stacks of stuff from a single mob population).

Thats wrong, it was 1.2 million rounds of ammo not ped (12k of Ped)

It only took 24hrs and he profited 2000ped.

https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/showthread.php?21666-1.2-Million-Rounds-Shot-in-24-Hours&highlight=

 

[Jimmy B]

I wouldn't be surprised if some of the theories in this thread prove to be true, although I don't think it's all proven yet. I'd love to see some data from maxed Imk2 shooting and crazy stuff like the war axe. But easier would probably be comparisons between Mux2 and Opalo, or similar, the latter should be close to twice as eco. Interesting if it is true; there presumably must have been a change at some point or else the Opalo+A106 combo wouldn't have been nearly as effective in the old days.

Also would be worth seeing if armour and fap expenses are taken into account too.

I guess the tricky bit is that without huge data sets we can only draw conclusions about short-term loot. For instance, if say an eco setup kills a mob for around 1 PED, maybe you get on average 90 PEC back and 5 PEC goes into a hypothetical HoF fund. But if you use a very uneco setup that kills the mob for about 2 PED, you might get 180 PEC back but nothing into the HoF fund. Ruling out such theories would be hard just because of the sheer amount of data you'd need.

By that I mean it may be 2-3 times the normal cost to kill a mob. Any more spent then that will not be compensated. For example letting a mob regen more then 2-3 times full will not be compensated and overamping too much may also not be full compensated.

Yeah, it's possible. I think a similar idea was floated around when we looked at the (limited) data from the crazy ambu regen tests.

At the moment I'm enjoying trolling imk2 owners....

Yeah this would be quite bad news for imk2 owners if the market was listening. Tbh, it does seem to me that Mod Merc is a much more coveted item these days compared to imk2 than it was when I started playing.

 

[falkao]

I guess the tricky bit is that without huge data sets we can only draw conclusions about short-term loot.

At least we should be carefully when interpreting results. Here an example from Qwackers Feff data:



The figure depicts observed and corrected Feff Loot using weapon L and subdivided by two dmg classes. The first is ranging from 1048 to 1243 (n= 208) and the second from 1244 to 1432 (n=310).

Loot is significantly different in the left uncorrected panel (p =.001) and this was expected, as loot should be higher when there was more dmg done. When correcting for it, then the difference disappears and isn’t significant any more (p=.585). However, there is still a difference marked by the red circles not detected by the log-rank test and related to the small sample size. Nevertheless, if the correction would have eliminated all differences, then I would have expected a p-value close to .9. So what’s behind?

We should recall that loot follows loot classes with respective weights (rel. frequency of the class). When doing more dmg it seems that not only the classes do get scaled but also their weights, something we hadn’t in mining data so far. Till now my assumption was that class weights are set by mob, but as it looks now they might be dmg related or a combination of both things. This makes the identification of a loot class model tricky and was also the reason why my initial attempt didn’t have a perfect fit. Let’s see what further data is able to deliver.

 

[MilkeN]

Opalo Vs. Jester D-1 (both on A101 and E-amp15) will that happen... Overaming is 1 side off eco, not max on a weapon is another...

 

[remontoire]

But i cant see how is def decay counted in loot. Wep decay (without misses) counted on each mob according to this thread. How is def cost "calculated" then? Is it bound to char? Or mob? Cause i see 4-5 mobs runnin constantly from 1 person to another at cp.

Is there a real reason to think it is actually accounted ? As it, if you kill them one by one with no running about or getting attacked by multiple ones, you will get less loot ? Did people really get less loot on the Aliens at the times when CP respawn was bugged?

 

[enda]

How about, find a SIB L gun you have max hit rate on, but do not max the damage, and see the returns from that. That would be akin to swine deluxe economy at level 100..

 

[Agis]

OK - here we go the mother of all tests - do 200PED TT on bristlehog with the following
(reason being im losing alot of ped atm so mayes well do some insane hunting for once lol)

Non-Eco
1) XT + Evil Amp (not counting MU)
582 Shots - 34.32 pec per shot - 140PED Ammo

Super-Eco
2) Imp21 + A203 Amp (Tier 2 Dmg Enhanced)
1537 Shots - 13.011 pec per shot - 163PED Ammo


all tests with jzar scope and hunnir laser sights
Phantom 6B cost run in ( ) - Any Globals will have a G

*here we go*

1) 173.57 G58 (- 2.53)

2) 128.29 (-6.54) absolute joke

Non - Eco wins 1st round

 

[Jimmy B]

OK - here we go the mother of all tests - do 200PED TT on bristlehog with the following
(reason being im losing alot of ped atm so mayes well do some insane hunting for once lol)

Non-Eco
1) XT + Evil Amp (not counting MU)
582 Shots - 34.32 pec per shot - 140PED Ammo

Super-Eco
2) Imp21 + A203 Amp (Tier 2 Dmg Enhanced)
1537 Shots - 13.011 pec per shot - 163PED Ammo


all tests with jzar scope and hunnir laser sights
Phantom 6B cost run in ( ) - Any Globals will have a G

*here we go*

1) 173.57 G58 (- 2.53)

2) 128.29 (-6.54) absolute joke

Non - Eco wins 1st round

Thanks, always good to see new data. What this thread requires really though are setups with huge difference in dmg/pec (TT) (not dmg/shot). What are your dmg/pecs on the two setups? (Or your relevant pro-levels if you want us to work that out)

 

[falkao]

We should take care about how data is collected, otherwise we do produce only data without any use.

Mikeemoo's approach was the right one. Record as many data as possible including mob maturity, number shots, dmg done, misses, crits, decay, ammo, loot.
Furthermore, when comparing setups, mob should be the same for all kills and of one maturity only, or the frequency of maturities should be the same over samples. Best would be to switch setup from kill to kill.

 

[Agis]

We should take care about how data is collected, otherwise we do produce only data without any use.

Mikeemoo's approach was the right one. Record as many data as possible including mob maturity, number shots, dmg done, misses, crits, decay, ammo, loot.
Furthermore, when comparing setups, mob should be the same for all kills and of one maturity only, or the frequency of maturities should be the same over samples. Best would be to switch setup from kill to kill.

Thats too hard if your not mathematically minded plus a hell of alot of stopping-starting may effect your armor decay if agroed while adding up loot, btw ill update the info with dmg/pec on the next comparative run.

 

[Jennson]

Thats too hard if your not mathematically minded plus a hell of alot of stopping-starting may effect your armor decay if agroed while adding up loot, btw ill update the info with dmg/pec on the next comparative run.

A good chat.log reader already does the job. Sucks you can'T see loots wthout teaming though

 

[xillonz]

Thats too hard if your not mathematically minded plus a hell of alot of stopping-starting may effect your armor decay if agroed while adding up loot, btw ill update the info with dmg/pec on the next comparative run.

Unfortunately science is hard work! That's the cost of knowing true stuff I spose.

 

[Captain Jack]

Edit: I saw you're using software.

 

[fluske]

i looted an swine deluxe on mulciber last event,and since i wa sbored yesterday night decided to test a bit if uneco gun gives higher returns

the way i tested was to shoot 10 ambu young with swine/dante,note down loot,shoot 10 ambu young with maddox4/beast,note down loot..then again1 0 with swine.10 with maddox,10 with swine,10 with maddox

did not get any globals or minis

outcome for each minirun(10 ambus ) was this

swine...26.98
maddox ..23.26
swine ...34.21
maddox...21.25
swine...28.35
maddox...18.85

so,average loot per ambu with swine was 2.98
and average loot per ambu with maddox was 2.11

average cost per ambu with swine was 6.149
average cost per ambu with maddox was 4.482

so,although my cost with swine was around 37% higher then with maddox..the lootreturn was around 41% higher then with maddox

the 30 ambus with swine gave me 94.93 loss and the 30 with madox gave me 71.13 loss

 

[Peezle]

But wait a moment.... why feel the need to collect data?

Are you a computer, or a human being playing a game?

I know this forum - and game - is infested ( I use that term wisely ) with those who feel the need to open up spreadsheets and try to interpret what they are doing. It is scary to be honest...

This has nothing to to with EU, but how badly society has become affected by analysis... just act and think and do. It is so much better than staring at a bunch of numbers,and, though this is comforting, it leads nowhere healthy.

A spreadsheet is the invention of the devil.

 

[Freelancer_Main]

Is this still working????