Hunter and miiner cannot compete with crafter

[Ichi]

Crafter at lvl 15 can spend 20 ped per click every 4 seconds with EP4.

A miner needs to be lvl 20+ to use Lvl 13 amp for a 20 ped drop cost, and even then he can only drop about 1 time every 8 seconds because of cooldown of finder, and also needs time to run 110 meters between drops. In addition to this, miner needs to pay hefty markup for his amps while the EP4 crafter enjoys zero markup in the nanocubes he buys from the trade terminal. Also, miner needs much time to extract claims while the crafter instantly gets his loot and can keep on crafting.

A hunter can spend 20 ped to kill a mob, but this takes MUCH longer than the 4 seconds the crafter enjoys between clicks, and the hunter needs to be uber to use the weapons that can kill a 20 ped mob. Hunter also incurs hefty costs for the armor and fapper and other costs involved in killing the 20 ped mob.

Why is there such an advantage given to the crafter over the other professions?

 

[The Jetman]

also a Hunter and Miner can't lose ped at the speed of a EP4 clicker can

 

[Captain Jack]

Because crafting EP gives 90-95% returns, hunting can give 95%+. Hunting produces more markup than crafting EP. Mining produces more markup than EP. If you want to play for returns, you hunt or mine or craft things other than EP. If you want to rain golden showers you craft EP and accept a staggering loss over time.

 

[Edward-James]

Hello,

difficult to talk about this subject...

First of all..if you meant the ep4 bp..it says minimum of lvl 15 Mechanical Engineer (maxed at 20-21) ,also success depends on success rate/quality rating from bp

Then in my opinion you cannot compare those 3 professions in that way...you have to look at each on in seperate..
hunting is the old hard work,going out in the field and go for a specific mob,you have to posess some maxed weapon ideally,armor,fap etc...and the skills are counting into several other things and gives also hp and other things..

mining is nearby that but the skills dont count into so many other skills as hunting does..(for me this is the boring profession)

crafting is the modern way to participate in eu, you can craft afk,overnight, its good for lazy ppl,ppl with family where you have to go afk more often etc...you have to pay several markups in materials (which in hunting you dont actually,only on weapon)..is that fair to compare??

crafting explosives is a seperate topic..but its useful and necessary also for entropia Universe...it boosts crafting,ppl make experiences,more cycling of peds...and many other things...


coloring/texturing takes a way more of cycling peds/paint cans/textures to get it to a quite fair level to do good things with clothes/vehicles....is that fair to compare??

There are hunting and mining ICM (iron challenge mission = hunting missions) but NO crafting icm...is that fair to compare?

ppl are not forced to to anything they dont want to do...so let every profession as it is...every1 has advantages and disadvantages ..

Have a nice evening,
Eddie

 

[silentkill234]

Because crafting EP gives 90-95% returns, hunting can give 95%+. Hunting produces more markup than crafting EP. Mining produces more markup than EP. If you want to play for returns, you hunt or mine or craft things other than EP. If you want to rain golden showers you craft EP and accept a staggering loss over time.

Sorry...you don't know enough of the loot system to state something so bold.

We don't know the returns of each profession. Markup sure.

 

[Darth Revan]

Its not an advantage...its an illusion of an advantage which many gamblers fall for.
Don't complain about EP4 and their swirls, they are still loosing a ton and feeding MA profit to keep this game running...watched a guy on twitch the other day doing a 5000ped run on EP4...on condition as well like most of them do. His return was just over 3700 ped...then he deposited 3000 ped more, lost about 2K of that and then hit a swirl of 3K ped (he was super happy going "yeah that's how you do it")....all in all, still ended up in red at the end.

Guess what he did then ........??

Also note you need to be higher than level 15 to use effectively.
Wish we could turn off the ticker for EP globals though.

 

[The Jetman]

Also note you need to be higher than level 15 to use effectively.
Wish we could turn off the ticker for EP globals though.

if the ticker isn't removed, they could up the global trigger to like 400-500. EP4 gamblers arn't bothered by those under that, it might just raise a little smile

 

[Darth Revan]

Also forgot to mention, crafter's can do way higher clicking than 20ped per click....at much lower levels than EP4.
Take the Level 6 Finder Amp BP (L)....Cost to click is 49.07 ped tt value, min level is 7.5 ...sure its not like using tt materials, but not hard to get together enough materials for a long crafting run by mining yourself. Each success is a guaranteed swirl on quantity...so that means you will be swirling away high amounts on condition....even higher than EP4......this one has been around longer than EP4 as well.

So crafters can easily lose higher amounts faster than EP4, it just takes more work which most of the lazy ones don't bother with and just use EP4....yet at least there is some MU on Level 6 amps....or you can use yourself to get more materials for your next run.

Either way, using either BP is just a sure fire way to lose ped to MA fast...don't believe me? Try it for yourself....just try not to get hooked on seeing the golden swirls and ignoring your ped balance dropping.

 

[GoNi]

Now guess why there is different HoF lists for crafting, mining and hunting ?

Its another proffession.

If your cycle speed in hunting or mining is to slow for you, its very simple: Start crafting !

Beside that there is mobs that cost more / kill than 20 PED, too.

Highest ATH in hunting and mining still higher than Explo ATH.

ATH No 1 in crafting is not Explo and never will be Explo, as the input TT is to low to get there even with max multiplyer.
If some crafter wants to go for No1 ATH, then he is forced to move away from Explo.

And another thing:

No hunter nor any miner is forced to pay any MU to do his activity, its free will to use MU in this proffessions.
Befor Explo BP got introduced, crafters where forced to pay MU to do their activity, what was an very unfair disadvantage, as craftes paid miners and hunters free play (as long the miners/hunters hit break even after MU, what was not always the case but very often).

Explo BPs solved this disadvantage, and made it fair for 100% pure crafters, as they now can skill with TT input only, as hunters and miners can do, too.

If it comes to gaining MU from activitys crafter still has to pay MU, what hunters and miners still don´t need, as all MU in hunting and mining can be found with repairable gear (TT input only). Explo has no MU, even the BP drops rarly have a real MU. To find real MU in crafting Explo is not the way!

I am real sick of all this Explo complaining noobs!

If you think its unfair that Explo exists and its so a huge advantage for the crafters, damn why not simply start crafting Explo yourself, there is tons of BPs available and the level to craft it can be reached in a few days.
So what stops you from using this "advantage" ??? You only want to complain about something but you have no clue about it!

Come back when you have done 20k clicks on Explo IV to raise it from QR1 to QR100 and then tell me that it is still unfair against hunters and miners LOL

Much easyer to break even in hunting and mining than in crafting!

 

[Pratahn]

Crafter at lvl 15 can spend 20 ped per click every 4 seconds with EP4.

A miner needs to be lvl 20+ to use Lvl 13 amp for a 20 ped drop cost, and even then he can only drop about 1 time every 8 seconds because of cooldown of finder,

So you are angry the miner will lose 8 times less PED? I understand your concern, it is really bad!

 

[Ichi]

I am real sick of all this Explo complaining noobs!

If you think its unfair that Explo exists and its so a huge advantage for the crafters, damn why not simply start crafting Explo yourself, there is tons of BPs available and the level to craft it can be reached in a few days.
So what stops you from using this "advantage" ??? You only want to complain about something but you have no clue about it!

I dont like crafting, that is why i almost never do it. I mainly hunt, and with my OP I was pointing out how much sooner an EP4 crafter is able to be exposed to a 20k ATH vs a miner or hunter. I am lvl 40 blp sniper yet there is no way i can take on a mob that costs 20+ ped to kill. Lvl 15 crafter is pretty easy to get to compared to the lvls a hunter needs to reach to be able to kill a 20 ped mob. The hunter will spend countless hours skilling to get to the point where they can take on a 20 ped mob. Miner is a little better since they can do 20 ped drops with lvl 13 amp at lvl 20 but they still have far fewer chances per minute/hour etc for the ATH vs the ep4 crafter who gets a chance to ATH every 4 seconds.

 

[Ichi]

So you are angry the miner will lose 8 times less PED? I understand your concern, it is really bad!

Its like this, every time you loot a mob, drop probes and get a claim, or click a blueprint you get a chance to get loot. The hunter and miner cannot compete with a crafter who gets a looting event every 4 seconds. I don't know how long it takes an uber to kill and loot a mob that costed 20 peds to kill with the best of the best weapons and amp, but i know its a lot more than 4 seconds. Miners need more than 4 secs to run 110 meters to their next drop, plus even if they could run 110 meters in 4 secs they still have the ~8 sec cooldown before the finder is ready to use again.

 

[Haruto Rat]

For a hunter to be able to spend 5 PED/second, guns would need to become about ten times as big as they're now.

Terminator burns just 29.7 PEC/second before buffs/amps, then there's Swine that burns a tiny little more, and two unique melee weapons above them.

 

[silentkill234]

Crafter at lvl 15 can spend 20 ped per click every 4 seconds with EP4.

A miner needs to be lvl 20+ to use Lvl 13 amp for a 20 ped drop cost, and even then he can only drop about 1 time every 8 seconds because of cooldown of finder, and also needs time to run 110 meters between drops. In addition to this, miner needs to pay hefty markup for his amps while the EP4 crafter enjoys zero markup in the nanocubes he buys from the trade terminal. Also, miner needs much time to extract claims while the crafter instantly gets his loot and can keep on crafting.

A hunter can spend 20 ped to kill a mob, but this takes MUCH longer than the 4 seconds the crafter enjoys between clicks, and the hunter needs to be uber to use the weapons that can kill a 20 ped mob. Hunter also incurs hefty costs for the armor and fapper and other costs involved in killing the 20 ped mob.

Why is there such an advantage given to the crafter over the other professions?

I don't understand peoples arguments on this. We don't know how loot works. We can only assume that crafting cycles PEDs alot faster than other professions. I think Ichi is right. We need to be fair and make all professions like this. Introduce gamble items? Like higher probe finders and amps maybe? Or Big game mobs?

 

[Ichi]

For a hunter to be able to spend 5 PED/second, guns would need to become about ten times as big as they're now.

Terminator burns just 29.7 PEC/second before buffs/amps, then there's Swine that burns a tiny little more, and two unique melee weapons above them.

Right, so a 20 ped mob will take an uber about a minute or more to kill. During that same minute an ep4 crafter will have had 15 looting events, 15 times more looting events in the same amount of time. As Goni pointed out, that crafter spent a "few days" getting his skill up to the point where he could use ep4, whereas the uber hunter spent years? hunting to get to the point where he could solo the 20 ped cost to kill mob.

 

[Darth Revan]

Right, so a 20 ped mob will take an uber about a minute or more to kill. During that same minute an ep4 crafter will have had 15 looting events, 15 times more looting events in the same amount of time. As Goni pointed out, that crafter spent a "few days" getting his skill up to the point where he could use ep4, whereas the uber hunter spent years? hunting to get to the point where he could solo the 20 ped cost to kill mob.

Hunters also get to control what they use in terms of gear/ammo/ buffs etc to kill those creatures.
Crafters have the same cost regardless, they cannot change that, they can however change how many of those are "no-looters"...usually for the worse.

Why do crafters not have have rings/buffs or ways to control their cost per click on a BP?

Just come to a realisation that not all professions are created equal, if they were then you might as well only have one profession....if you don't like the fact that your profession does not allow for high gambling, then switch to one that does and pray you have a high enough bankroll to survive.

 

[Granny Rowan]

I have only one thing to say about EP4 - Please MA get rid of it or at least adapt to use something from the economy rather than the TT machine.
Not all crafters run EP4, it is for gamblers, not those wanting to produce a saleable product. For those that genuinely craft those endless globals and HOFs are probably the most confidence sapping thing this game has ever seen.

Those crafters that run other BP's where they need Mats with MU and hope to sell items with MU, have by no means 80-85% returns, unless perhaps a few with enormous ped cards do immense runs
the majority of crafters do runs that are usually only a few clicks to maybe a few hundred. The returns at this level are generally poor even if you have the BP maxed and have skills way higher than the BP requires.

So please if comparing professions compare whole professions, (like with like), after all it would not be representative of all hunting if we only looked at Marcimex or Yuka, or only looked at Tridenite and Rugaritz for miners. A day old avatar may turn a profit in any profession, and a 10 year old may have days where returns are colder than hell, all I hear is everyone bitching that everyone else does better than they do.
Take a long hard look at what you do, look for the loot cycles and when they go cold walk away. Check your set up is eco, and pray to lootius to be kind to you

GL to one and all

 

[Lefty]

I have only one thing to say about EP4 - Please MA get rid of it or at least adapt to use something from the economy rather than the TT machine.
Not all crafters run EP4, it is for gamblers, not those wanting to produce a saleable product. For those that genuinely craft those endless globals and HOFs are probably the most confidence sapping thing this game has ever seen.

Those crafters that run other BP's where they need Mats with MU and hope to sell items with MU, have by no means 80-85% returns, unless perhaps a few with enormous ped cards do immense runs
the majority of crafters do runs that are usually only a few clicks to maybe a few hundred. The returns at this level are generally poor even if you have the BP maxed and have skills way higher than the BP requires.

So please if comparing professions compare whole professions, (like with like), after all it would not be representative of all hunting if we only looked at Marcimex or Yuka, or only looked at Tridenite and Rugaritz for miners. A day old avatar may turn a profit in any profession, and a 10 year old may have days where returns are colder than hell, all I hear is everyone bitching that everyone else does better than they do.
Take a long hard look at what you do, look for the loot cycles and when they go cold walk away. Check your set up is eco, and pray to lootius to be kind to you

GL to one and all

I really couldn't agree more. My own first-person experience is that I can make tiny but consistent profit hunting the way I'm in the habit of doing (which is a complicated and debatable method, but fun), and when I mine or craft I take major losses, so for the most part I don't. I do enjoy the Calypso dailys though when they're for Combustor or Crude Oil, so I go ahead and get hosed small-time when those pop up, and tell myself I'm getting skills (yea right). But almost all of my game now is the one ever narrowing specialty in hunting that I've learned how to do over the years. My best guess is it works for 3 reasons: it's not a popular specialty, it's my little niche; I pay close attention to loot and damage/evade ratio behaviours; and lucky timing (when it's truly awful, do something else, doesn't matter what else). I've had some minor success from watching which types of mobs will loot better during which types of events though. Have a crack at it, it's entertainment if nothing else.

 

[mastermesh]

Posted it in another thread somewhere that I can't find at the moment... a while back... but anyways...

Instead of doing away with ep crafting they should 'balance' it out by creating big ass grenade launchers that will allow hunters to use same cost per click as the ep crafters are doing... In other words, create a use for all of those crafted explosives...

a new set of grenade launchers that do mega damage... we are talking enough damage to kill entire LA (or at least what's in your radar) in one click. Start the series with the NGL that used to be in the Trade Terminal on Rocktropia... by putting it back in there... (yep, that may hurt my investment in that gun, but I don't care) then go up from there... with both L and UL versions, similar to what you got with other gun lines, but go way the hell up the line to doing something that can wipe out entire countries and make what's in the battle sim look like a TT gun...

They could do something interesting with these mega guns... perhaps these nukes actually create a temporary 'radiated pvp zone' where shot... no matter where shot (probably have a mega long reload time on this thing)... hell maybe even work this in with the mining aspect... if you mine in that radiated zone you get 'enhanced' finds but you have to use special 'radiation and gamma protected probes' that will up your cost to click to match those of the gun. (could draw folks in similar to the way wormhole chip events used to)

Then do the same for mining... by allowing space mining... where you can mine the entire damn asteroid in one click (or at least one dome on the asteroid)

Mindark wants millionares to deposit, give em a reason to.

 

[Lefty]

Posted it in another thread somewhere that I can't find at the moment... a while back... but anyways...

Instead of doing away with ep crafting they should 'balance' it out by creating big ass grenade launchers that will allow hunters to use same cost per click as the ep crafters are doing... In other words, create a use for all of those crafted explosives...

a new set of grenade launchers that do mega damage... we are talking enough damage to kill entire LA (or at least what's in your radar) in one click. Start the series with the NGL that used to be in the Trade Terminal on Rocktropia... by putting it back in there... (yep, that may hurt my investment in that gun, but I don't care) then go up from there... with both L and UL versions, similar to what you got with other gun lines, but go way the hell up the line to doing something that can wipe out entire countries and make what's in the battle sim look like a TT gun...

They could do something interesting with these mega guns... perhaps these nukes actually create a temporary 'radiated pvp zone' where shot... no matter where shot (probably have a mega long reload time on this thing)... hell maybe even work this in with the mining aspect... if you mine in that radiated zone you get 'enhanced' finds but you have to use special 'radiation and gamma protected probes' that will up your cost to click to match those of the gun. (could draw folks in similar to the way wormhole chip events used to)

Then do the same for mining... by allowing space mining... where you can mine the entire damn asteroid in one click (or at least one dome on the asteroid)

Mindark wants millionares to deposit, give em a reason to.

Best. Solution. Ever.
I can see it now. You-Know-Who-From-Space, at Ashi, with a handheld Megingjord turret, and the rest of us laughing our rears off.

 

[Rocket192]

Boy is this a sensitive subject for me...

EP4 is what it is.. MA isn't going to change it and they depend on the revenue it generates to supply income for themselves as well as CLD holders.

Reasonable solutions all need to tackle one big problem THERE IS ABSOLUTELY ZERO DEMAND FOR RESOURCES such that materials from hunting or mining sit in storage or get sold to orders/tt.

Conversely, i have a problem with ep4 enabling crafters to cycle "end-game peds" for TT cost... if we wanted fairness we would have lvl 13 mining amps in the TT and 100 dps guns in the tt.. but we don't because that would be absolute bullshit and the game would turn into an absolute casino. Regardless MA won't alter EP4.

Hunting is absolutely fucked and always will be.. fortunately you can manage tt profit in hunting. Mining on the other hand will continue to get fucked harder and harder without resource demand.

I've been talking with MA in an e-mail string about an implementation of "mining shrapnel." to at least dumb down the amount of resources being pumped out of the ground. I'm not sure if it will ever get implemented or what portion of returns will be mining shrapnel, but it would also solve resource problems from big amp gamblers on foma.

TL;DR: we're all absolutely fucked because of MA's deflation campaign and shitty sustainability moves to make up for their shitty business decisions of the past

No hunter nor any miner is forced to pay any MU to do his activity, its free will to use MU in this proffessions.
Befor Explo BP got introduced, crafters where forced to pay MU to do their activity, what was an very unfair disadvantage, as craftes paid miners and hunters free play (as long the miners/hunters hit break even after MU, what was not always the case but very often).

HUNTERS AND MINERS CANNOT SPEND 20 PED/CLICK FOR TT VALUE. THIS ARGUMENT HAS ABSOLUTELY ZERO MERIT AT ALL AND I'M SICK OF HEARING IT. In order for this to be valid MA would have had to stop at EP 2... so no EP3/4 to gamble with. But they didn't so fuck me right?

gimme some lvl 13 amps in TT plz.

 

[Neil Stockton]

crafting explosives is a seperate topic..but its useful and necessary also for entropia Universe...

No, it's not. Explosive projectiles BPs have destroyed mining and crafting. You want to know the funny thing? There were more explosive projectiles on auction when they dropped from mobs than now.

 

[The Jetman]

I've been talking with MA in an e-mail string about an implementation of "mining shrapnel." to at least dumb down the amount of resources being pumped out of the ground. I'm not sure if it will ever get implemented or what portion of returns will be mining shrapnel, but it would also solve resource problems from big amp gamblers on foma.

I like the idea of mining shrapnel, could even be metal residue as that market has now been bombed. Prehaps allow metal residue to be made into 101% probes or ammo that can be sold, it might bring EP crafters back into the market and lower the costs for the miners and hunters too

 

[Rocket192]

I like the idea of mining shrapnel, could even be metal residue as that market has now been bombed. Prehaps allow metal residue to be made into 101% probes or ammo that can be sold, it might bring EP crafters back into the market and lower the costs for the miners and hunters too

The theory, as discussed, is that the shrapnel wouldn't be as abundant as it is in hunting, but a good portion, if not all towers would be "mining shrapnel." Additionally, mining gamblers would be isolated from the economy which would be good for those who don't drop 10+ ped per drop with big amps.

Mining amps might inflate to 108% for lvl 5, but markup averages would go from 111% to 118% or so. Whether or not it's implemented who knows. MA will work it out so they are advantaged for sure. But the biggest problem with mining is waiting for your 10k+ TT of ores to sell on auction, which can take two weeks if you aren't selling on orders