If the PP system fails.. Then what?

[minim]

You can put smaller stacks on other planets. You can't expect new players to be buying 500 ped stacks of anything. It just seems silly to me to see so many non calypso planet specific stackables sold on Calypso. If you want economies on other planets to survive you can be a part of it.

It would help if planet partners could lower or remove auction fees as well if there aren't many listings.

I'll challenge you. I need to sell off 5000-10000 ped of loot each day to keep going if I TT some of the loot. Can we meet at Arkadia once a day and you buy my loot at the price I can sell for at calypso? The only thing you have to do is sell all my loot at Arkadia and that should be easy according to you. It's just to sell in 50 ped stacks (you need 200 auction spots and you need all the loot to sell each day to keep enough spots for this) you know

 

[Zorander]

I'll challenge you. I need to sell off 5000-10000 ped of loot each day to keep going if I TT some of the loot. Can we meet at Arkadia once a day and you buy my loot at the price I can sell for at calypso? The only thing you have to do is sell all my loot at Arkadia and that should be easy according to you. It's just to sell in 50 ped stacks (you need 200 auction spots and you need all the loot to sell each day to keep enough spots for this) you know

Perhaps selling a few stacks on the planet you're hunting / mining on would be a start. I don't think he was suggesting that you can move as much product on Arkadia as you can on Calypso, just that you should sell what you can locally rather than shipping all of it to Caly.

 

[minim]

Perhaps selling a few stacks on the planet you're hunting / mining on would be a start. I don't think he was suggesting that you can move as much product on Arkadia as you can on Calypso, just that you should sell what you can locally rather than shipping all of it to Caly.

I've tried. It doesn't work at all and with the lost auction fee it pays a trip back to calypso. I know this isn't helping at all but why should I keep on listing when it doesn't work? The best solution would be if mindark could admit that separating economies are not working and either make the auction so that it doesn't matter what planet you are on or removing space.

 

[Atlantis]

I've tried. It doesn't work at all and with the lost auction fee it pays a trip back to calypso. I know this isn't helping at all but why should I keep on listing when it doesn't work? The best solution would be if mindark could admit that separating economies are not working and either make the auction so that it doesn't matter what planet you are on or removing space.

Something that would be interesting to me would be an option for a global listing that increased the base listing cost by perhaps 2x the amount. This global listing option would show your listing across all planets and be retrievable from whichever planet you happen to be on. So you would have your typical auction listing fee + 50pec or whatever the determined added charge is.

I'm sure they probably can't really do this because of the impact to prviateer and mothership owners, but to be honest this is a shortcoming of the space system. Ferrying goods across space should not be the primary function for a capital ship. They should be waging battles against other NPC or player controlled capital ships/quads/privateers etc... Even acting as a revival point at the front lines for quads in a corp type of thing would be better than what there is currently.

There is next to no economy on RT, NI or Cyrene. I have never even visited NI or Cyrene because of this. I loathe going to RT and only do when I have an urge to mine Hell, I almost always regret it due to having to find a warp flight to sell my minerals. Arkadia is slightly better, things DO sell there, but you have to be really patient when you list something there, and *hope* someone buys it.

 

[Zorander]

Part of me loves the idea of an extra fee to list in the global auction, part of me doesn't. Really the only thing that would change is the need to travel through space. The economies of individual planets wouldn't change - it would just be all one big economy with most of the activity still on Calypso. This hurts those that have invested in ships to ferry people through space and those that trade between the planets. While the selfish part of me doesn't want to have to deal with going through space to list an auction or buy something, a bigger part of me knows that it's too late to undo space as it exists now.

For a global auction to work they would have to give space some other, meaningful, purpose. Else all the time and money putting it into place is purely wasted.

 

[FallenAngel]

<removed>

and it is important to note what you said earlier about participation, in the real world people can not opt out of participating, but if people do not like the economic reality presented to them in this game, and the content is not compelling enough on its own, well, there are 100's if not 1000's of other options available to them.

so maybe its best we leave real world analogies behind us and focus on the game and the topic at hand?

 

[billairboy]

I overlooked it because it was to obvious and to quote myself I also said this in my original reply. Mindark's cut isn't a variable so I was making a point out of what would happen if they changed around on how our part of the loot is distributed to us.

It's here we disagree. MAs cut is a variable, and that cut should be lower. MA could do this and still get the same amount of revenue, but the players would be happier. Most players probably have a limited amount of money to play with, so when the have spent all the money they for the month they play less or doing stuff that don't cost them money. If MA increase the loot it would probably mean that the players would play more, but in the end spend the same amount of money, just playing more hours. MA would still get the money, but the players would be a lot happier because they got more fun from the money spent.

Of course not everybody would play more just because the loot increased, but I believe MA would earn back the money they loose on them by being able to keep more players. It's like the real world, find the right and optimal balance between price and demand for the product you sale. Right now, the price is too high. They should lower the price and that will increase the demand to play, it will benefit us all, both the players and MA. At least that is what I believe.

 

[Kitch]

I think it's because those "better average" guys don't have the ability to look at it in a bigger picture. Better average won't be any good long therm for anyone.

i think i hafta agree with this sadly.. the heart of this game is pure filthy greed. The gambling and dreaming is what keeps it going imo.
Though i am more 90% guy at heart

 

[Neil Stockton]

I've tried. It doesn't work at all and with the lost auction fee it pays a trip back to calypso. I know this isn't helping at all but why should I keep on listing when it doesn't work? The best solution would be if mindark could admit that separating economies are not working and either make the auction so that it doesn't matter what planet you are on or removing space.

I think there are some fundamentals you need to learn about the arkadian economy.

First, it is smaller than Calypso. If you can sell 2000 ped TT of Niksarium on Caly in one day, you can't expect to sell that much on Arkadia where there are only 1/10 as many crafters. You might make your auction 200 ped worth and have better luck at the auction house.

Second, some resources are worth more on different planets. Many of the universal ores are not heavily used in Arkadian BPs (such as Niks). These minerals will generally sell on Arkadia but you will often get a few percentage points higher price on Calypso since that's where the BPs using those resources are being clicked.

I sell thousands of peds worth of minerals on Ark auction every day (from my mining company, not from reselling). It's smart to export some things, it's counter productive to export others according to prices and volume. To make a statement like "the auction house is broken" or "nothing sells" is just wrong and only serves to confuse people. Selling on smaller planets does take more RL skills: price setting, market analysis, and patience, and while I think it's not really that difficult, I do realize that not everyone has these skills ready at hand.

 

[Ironheart]

I think there are some fundamentals you need to learn about the arkadian economy.

First, it is smaller than Calypso. If you can sell 2000 ped TT of Niksarium on Caly in one day, you can't expect to sell that much on Arkadia where there are only 1/10 as many crafters. You might make your auction 200 ped worth and have better luck at the auction house.

Second, some resources are worth more on different planets. Many of the universal ores are not heavily used in Arkadian BPs (such as Niks). These minerals will generally sell on Arkadia but you will often get a few percentage points higher price on Calypso since that's where the BPs using those resources are being clicked.

I sell thousands of peds worth of minerals on Ark auction every day (from my mining company, not from reselling). It's smart to export some things, it's counter productive to export others according to prices and volume. To make a statement like "the auction house is broken" or "nothing sells" is just wrong and only serves to confuse people. Selling on smaller planets does take more RL skills: price setting, market analysis, and patience, and while I think it's not really that difficult, I do realize that not everyone has these skills ready at hand.

This analysis, if correct, offers some real hope that the PP system can work.
I believe MA could utilise the Import/Export concept you mention a little differently though, by utilising a global AH with Import taxes, so if you buy resources on a different planet from where they are listed, you pay an import tax on them (say an 2%). Iirc this was the way back when CND was first implemented. They could even impement a delay whilst the goods were 'transported'. (This could even provide the possibility for some space content along the lines of blocking/pirating of trade routes etc. )

If you carfeully balance the availability of resources commonly use for crafting across the planets, making various resources scarcer on some planets and more common on others you should be able to provide enough profit for frontier types to setup abroad and supply the 'home market'.

As I mentioned earlier I've been away for some time, but I understand from some posts I've read that Duru all but disappeared from Caly for a time, well THAT is exactly the kind of thing that will be needed for the PPs to survive.
It needs to be common resources that Caly crafters NEED, and it needs to be obtainable in enough quantities elsewhere to sustain a genuine trading economy.

EDit:
p.s. Doer's earlier comment was absolutely spot on IMHO

This is not a game all can win. For there to be winners, there have to be losers. And, it's a game that if nobody can win, nobody will play. As i have been saying a lot lately about the dumbing down and bumbling destruction of MU MA has caused, "remove all decisions and all consequences from the game and nobody wins."

 

[Chris Cole]

All good points. So many good ideas here that MA and PPs can leverage on. I would also like to see some more universal connected items or BPs. I think something that will help the game diversify a bit and possibly even specialize groups of people and help populate other planets more are to make such things as more BPs that use resources from different planets. That improves trade as well as specializations between planets. It also creates more professions outside of hunting, mining, and crafting - transports, space defense, etc.

On top of this, make weapons and gear special or different if combined with attachments from other planets. Although I know this is a long time away and something that i still relatively complex due to the still not being mature, but we gotta start somewhere. MA and even the PPs definitely needs to start thinking on a more global scale and not just about themselves.

 

[FallenAngel]

I sell thousands of peds worth of minerals on Ark auction every day (from my mining company, not from reselling). It's smart to export some things, it's counter productive to export others according to prices and volume. To make a statement like "the auction house is broken" or "nothing sells" is just wrong and only serves to confuse people. Selling on smaller planets does take more RL skills: price setting, market analysis, and patience, and while I think it's not really that difficult, I do realize that not everyone has these skills ready at hand.

but you are only selling those thousands of peds worth of minerals easily because im not on the planet
i know that sounds like a joke but minim does have a point, last time i was mining ark seriously, and 1-2 other were, you had panic selling at insanely low prices by the "little guys" who didnt have the budget or the patience to wait a few days or a week to sell their stock and ppl were crying out in the quarry for resellers and this reality reflects what minim says, that from his point of view the auction house is broken.
i dont see how this is wrong or confuses anyone, but personally i think it is a good thing because arkadia needs space on the market while it attract its own players and becomes less depend on cannibalising calypso for activity.

 

[Agis]

As i am closely in touch with the developers I can tell you this

* Planet Cyrene is still in testing phase (Soft Launch) and will be until its ready to roll out its plan.
* Mining will be seriously tested this coming VU
* Hunting Systems is almost balanced enough..., bugs from MA and items available to the Cyrene developers is lacking atm.
*They are upset the long delays between PP updates, and is delaying there chance to move forward faster.
This is due to platform issues.

*The crafting is also being tested.
*Cyrene is fully funded for 4 years more so is not going anywhere soon.
*A full development team of over 48 people are ready when Kris and Ed say Go, but its not right time yet, still too many balancing issues to address at this stage and with the platform issues its not making it any easier pushing forward.

more testing is needed, and the reason why they chose for player testing soft launch phase instead of inhouse testing is because its experienced players that have played for years that are testing and not just beta testers learning about EU, most of all the content is player driven rather than developers, at this stage the developers try to work what the players want as long as it works within there storylines of the planet.

and during the testing phase Cyrene is evolving depending on players activity.

cheers

 

[minim]

As i am closely in touch with the developers I can tell you this

* Planet Cyrene is still in testing phase (Soft Launch) and will be until its ready to roll out its plan.
* Mining will be seriously tested this coming VU
* Hunting Systems is almost balanced enough..., bugs from MA and items available to the Cyrene developers is lacking atm.
*They are upset the long delays between PP updates, and is delaying there chance to move forward faster.
This is due to platform issues.

*The crafting is also being tested.
*Cyrene is fully funded for 4 years more so is not going anywhere soon.
*A full development team of over 48 people are ready when Kris and Ed say Go, but its not right time yet, still too many balancing issues to address at this stage and with the platform issues its not making it any easier pushing forward.

more testing is needed, and the reason why they chose for player testing soft launch phase instead of inhouse testing is because its experienced players that have played for years that are testing and not just beta testers learning about EU, most of all the content is player driven rather than developers, at this stage the developers try to work what the players want as long as it works within there storylines of the planet.

and during the testing phase Cyrene is evolving depending on players activity.

cheers

Tell them that they should demand space removed and say hi from Minim.

 

[Agis]

Tell them that they should demand space removed and say hi from Minim.

first thing ill do when Kris comes online after the VU *promise* (about the Hi bit ..that is)

Space is MA - complain to them ..haha

 

[Kitch]

rather than wanting to fight against the economical "giant" of calypso, wouldnt it be better to use that to help the PP's grow in the short to mid term? I mean if trade back to caly was made simpler then players would be able to stay on cyrene for example and do there thing, and just "send" some of there stuff back to caly. This is how most economys work isnt it? Caly is london to england

you could sell your loot on the "universal" auction and then MS owners could pick up "transport crates" at each planet and move them round (not my own original idea)

eventually the other planets will grow there own economy but what is more important? brining in new players and they hunt and craft on your planet, or having people sell stuff on the auction or p2p trade in your planet?(not a rhetorical question i literally am asking which is more important)

 

[aridash]

As i am closely in touch with the developers I can tell you this
...
*Cyrene is fully funded for 4 years more so is not going anywhere soon.
*A full development team of over 48 people are ready when Kris and Ed say Go, but its not right time yet, still too many balancing issues to address at this stage and with the platform issues its not making it any easier pushing forward.

48 devs and funding for 4 years... pray tell why they arent developing their own, new game?

 

[Ironheart]

48 devs and funding for 4 years... pray tell why they arent developing their own, new game?

Good question.

Presuming there's a proper business case behind Cyrene, the fact that a well resourced outfit is prepared to go down this route rather than develop 'their own' game, gives some cause for confidence.

I suspect the Risk/Reward analysis shows that a PP is a safer bet, but with a lower potential ROI.

 

[Acro]

Good question.

Presuming there's a proper business case behind Cyrene, the fact that a well resourced outfit is prepared to go down this route rather than develop 'their own' game, gives some cause for confidence.

I suspect the Risk/Reward analysis shows that a PP is a safer bet, but with a lower potential ROI.

Hmm, to be honest; that russian game that has been around since 2008 isn't doing any worse (or better) than I see the planet partners do. So the risk might be the same.

And I'm actually full of wonder to see that the PP haven't given up already. I never believed in it since day one; and I still think that moving to a platform was a bad move from MA.
But, since this is the chosen route, let's see where it goes.

 

[Konve]

48 devs and funding for 4 years... pray tell why they arent developing their own, new game?

Project Entropia was in development for more than 4 years before going gold in early 2003.

Being served an already-finished ("finished") game system is probably very enticing.

 

[forgo]

I think Cyrene has some major issues, they have bugs there I have never seen anywhere else. I question the business logic behind 48 people on staff for a PP when the platform provider has less, especially when you rely on them for alot of the work. That is overkill and risky on the budget IMO. So many game companies make the mistake of over staffing....see NI.

IF there is one planet I worry about, its Cyrene.....even before NI. NI is dead for the most part just running on its own, probably still making the owner a nice bit of change (better with no staff costs). I cant see how it can fail on auto mode like that, in fact it may be doing better financially for that reason than most.

Despite this, the PP are generating revenue daily, and the numbers this game generates are massive, I am not worried at all for PP....unless they mismanage. (like NI, started too big, PP couldn't support it, staff went bye bye)...but again, no staff might be a blessing.

I am a mere player and I have generated nearly 50k usd in manufactured goods TT value in since the last day of may. There is money in this game...on the PP scale...alot.

As far as how it affects us if they were to fail? It doesn't really, except all the potentially unusable loot we have from them ect. MA is the platform provider, they lose no money, and risk almost nothing by a PP failing. They have been paid.

As far as why this route vs a new game, a new game from scratch still needs a platform. Those costs overall are not cheap to get the quality that the mindark platform can provide in an existing game with an existing playerbase.

 

[K-Max]

PP is all about managing budget and content creation. Like Forgo mentioned NI had this very issue of bad management.

IMO NI had the best missions in game and best layout of land and thought behind it until Cyrene. To bad NI crashed and burned.

Cyrene has some awesome missions, I like how it keeps you involved every time I go to Cyrene it is hard to leave the planet. If they could fix them swamp lurkers so you can get that oil looted I think that would help a lot. Cyrene is struggling but if they stay focused they may pull ahead and not fall into the NI trap. It now is the planet with the best missions in game IMHO and I most like going there to work on them compared to the just grind fests of other planets. Calypso is taking a chapter form Cyrene and doing similar missions so at least Cyrene has original ideas. Although Calypso is not doing them as nicely as Cyrene IMO again, Calypso token system is FUBAR and needs major fixing. Cyrene token system makes much more sense.

 

[giuly_adm]

MA should limit events on Calypso and allow PP to have access to items aswell for big events on their planets.

Events move hunters, miners and crafters due to the items demand around the event and I don't find that fair that Calypso is offering 3 times the events of the past before Planet Partners arrive.

MA made a good work for limit the interest in second planets, but that from another side is making the planet partner way less attractive for any development company.

 

[Piotr]

MA should limit events on Calypso and allow PP to have access to items aswell for big events on their planets.

Events move hunters, miners and crafters due to the items demand around the event and I don't find that fair that Calypso is offering 3 times the events of the past before Planet Partners arrive.

MA made a good work for limit the interest in second planets, but that from another side is making the planet partner way less attractive for any development company.

Think its based on planet's base activity that how many items / events it can 'hand out'

 

[SpikeBlack]

Like the number of apartments and shops it can have?

Monria has 100 apartments and 10 shops from day 1. MA apply the rules to the PP's are involved but forget when it comes to anything they run.

 

[slick27]

I think the main reason why their isnt alot activity on pp planets why they may fail mainly comes down to trade.

my point is if i hunt on cyrene for example your find that most the time your tt most the items because quite simply their isn't enough crafters their whos willing to buy it. Or if your rich and own a privateer or can stack enough loot to pay someone with a privateer to move you to caly then you can sustain your hunt longer.

Problem is all these planets are well how i feel are closed economy, and put it bluntly you need players to keep them rolling, most average joe don't want to hunt somewhere they cant sell loot for mu simple as that. same goes for crafting mining etc.

I dont want to go of the topic but theirs loads ways you can increase trade in these planets thus more people likely to go their, and on the most part might spend a bit more money because their enjoying themselves getting items whatever.

Ma simply put doesn't want any pp to fail as it would discourage any future ones / players from investing in moon whatever. I just think their stuck in a hard place now as their ultimate goal is to just be a platform provider but now they own caly again and that any changes made to increase activity on a pp planet now would cause uproar among caly cld owners as well as ma wouldn't want their flagship planet to fail etc.

These are just my thoughts and experiences when hunting on different pps and what puts me off hunting their mostly.

shaun27

 

[giuly_adm]

All good points, but mainly the universe is not big enough to support a splitted economy between planets

 

[FallenAngel]

All good points, but mainly the universe is not big enough to support a splitted economy between planets

which brings us right round to the beginning, did the PP's actually do the job they were supposed to, which was bring in their own players.
did any of the PP's hire a professional marketing team or advertising agency and spend the money needed to bring in new players, did any of them actually have a real plan?
or were most of them more interested in cannibalising calypso for a easy buck from the start?
i think a valid question,if not the only question to ask is this, has any PP managed to recruit enough new players to sustain their business long term, and if not, why are they not doing this?

 

[giuly_adm]

which brings us right round to the beginning, did the PP's actually do the job they were supposed to, which was bring in their own players.
did any of the PP's hire a professional marketing team or advertising agency and spend the money needed to bring in new players, did any of them actually have a real plan?
or were most of them more interested in cannibalising calypso for a easy buck from the start?
i think a valid question,if not the only question to ask is this, has any PP managed to recruit enough new players to sustain their business long term, and if not, why are they not doing this?

For what I know Arkadia population is close to 50% new avatars born on Arkadia, so at least for Arkadia that's like that, thanks to the big banner promotion made at launch for sure.

But these aren't comparable to old players that have more items and skills accumulated in years of game, so if it might work in some way it definitely takes ages to work properly, in meanwhile a planet partner can die or decrease resources due to low incomes generated.

I think it's time to think at a middle way system between the unified economy and the space travel one, planet partners is a good feature, but the system shouldn't kill em.

 

[thoreau]

which brings us right round to the beginning, did the PP's actually do the job they were supposed to, which was bring in their own players.
did any of the PP's hire a professional marketing team or advertising agency and spend the money needed to bring in new players, did any of them actually have a real plan?
or were most of them more interested in cannibalising calypso for a easy buck from the start?
i think a valid question,if not the only question to ask is this, has any PP managed to recruit enough new players to sustain their business long term, and if not, why are they not doing this?

The very nature of Entropia means it will attract a very small number of players. How long has Calypso been around? 10 years? And look at how many 'active' people are playing. If it took Calypso 10 years to get to this point why would it take any PP less time?

That said, the current situation should not surprise many. This is something I posted nearly 3 years ago now.

The business model of MA creates a niche game. Very few are going to 'play.' The only thing planet partners are going to do is compete against other planet partners for the same decay generators. Growth is too slow to build a planet from the ground up.

The real thing is MA gets their cut regardless of where a player spends their time. So MA doesn't care if there is 100,000 players on 1 planet or 100,000 players on 10 planets. So MA will be the last to go financially. You'll see planet partners drop first and my guess is Calyspso will be the last one standing.