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Question: Is 20-30% return on CLD realistic?

E

entropian12

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Joined
Oct 23, 2011
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109
Sorry for the disturbing title, but I need to create audience ;)

Ok, so, going straight to the point. When CLDs were released, I suffered a big pain in my heart, since they were offering aprox. 30% ROI :)eyecrazy:). I study Business Administration, and due to the knowledge I get in my degree and pevious experiences of incredible investments, which finally turned into scamms, I doubt about CLD.

Currently, I remember CLDs are getting an aprox 22% ROI, which is still extremely high to support.

And my question is...

Do you really think revenue from Calypso is high enough to give MA benefit, but also giving CLDs owners a 22% ROI or is MA manipulating this ROI in order to postpone an inevitable collapse of the system?

Thank you! :yay:
 
https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/...fter-8-years-deposit-115-000-NEVER-Withdrawal

As long as there are gamblers of this magnitude, the system can survive.. for a while.

But being into Business Administration (which I never studied and probably never will) you should know also that printing money in industrial quantities in RL have a much more nastier effect - and the CLD's will be the last of our worries.
 
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The revenue basis for the CLD payout has been independently audited. So I dont really see a problem.
 
Well, Bankia, a spanish bank, was independently audited by Deloitte and then it was descovered a hole of 13,635 million €. So if that happens in a bank, what couldn't happen in EU ;)
 
:D would they bother instead of going broke they just need to turn the loot down :)
 
I'd imagine it very hard to go broke when all you have to do is create some virtual property and put it up for auction for real money, so hopefully there never will be an inevitable collapse of the system.
 
Yep, but is you reconfigure the loot down, people will stop hunting due to huge losses, and obviously, benefits from Caly will sink.
 
entropian12 said:
Sorry for the disturbing title, but I need to create audience ;)

Ok, so, going straight to the point. When CLDs were released, I suffered a big pain in my heart, since they were offering aprox. 30% ROI :)eyecrazy:). I study Business Administration, and due to the knowledge I get in my degree and pevious experiences of incredible investments, which finally turned into scamms, I doubt about CLD.

Currently, I remember CLDs are getting an aprox 22% ROI, which is still extremely high to support.

And my question is...

Do you really think revenue from Calypso is high enough to give MA benefit, but also giving CLDs owners a 22% ROI or is MA manipulating this ROI in order to postpone an inevitable collapse of the system?

Thank you! :yay:
Click to expand...

As long as no one withdraws (unlikely for the big buyer depending on who it is) then the cash never leaves MA's bank account so the return from those keeping and spending it never leaves the system, it just gets recycled continuously.

Besides the CLD payout is based on revenue and not profit of Calypso.

http://www.citehr.com/40980-profit-vs-revenue.html

i.e. Profit = revenue - costs

which is why MA can give a 30% return on revenue as they're not taking costs into account.
 
entropian12 said:
I study Business Administration, and due to the knowledge I get in my degree and pevious experiences of incredible investments, which finally turned into scamms, I doubt about CLD.
Click to expand...

i havent studied business administration but it doesnt take a genius to see that this kind of return, if not a scam itself is certainly obscene. a "normal" successful business runs at around 10%? it also doesnt do much for my long term confidence in the system either.

i also think it shows where MA is going wrong, and the reason so many are unhappy, and why this game will never grow its player base, MA is taking 30% and not delivering much in the way of customer satisfaction in return. a corner shop mentality when there are plenty of supermarkets around. ;)
 
entropian12 said:
Sorry for the disturbing title, but I need to create audience ;)

Ok, so, going straight to the point. When CLDs were released, I suffered a big pain in my heart, since they were offering aprox. 30% ROI :)eyecrazy:). I study Business Administration, and due to the knowledge I get in my degree and pevious experiences of incredible investments, which finally turned into scamms, I doubt about CLD.

Currently, I remember CLDs are getting an aprox 22% ROI, which is still extremely high to support.

And my question is...

Do you really think revenue from Calypso is high enough to give MA benefit, but also giving CLDs owners a 22% ROI or is MA manipulating this ROI in order to postpone an inevitable collapse of the system?

Thank you! :yay:
Click to expand...

60000 CLDs sold at 1000Ped each. $6 million USD injected into the game. If I recall, MA had said that 25% of the game income would fund the CLD ROI. So over the course of an average 52 week year. A 1000 Ped CLD will return 22% or 220Ped over a year. That times 60k is 13200000Ped ($1.32 Million USD). Now if that is 25% of the total annual income, then the game would only make $5.28 million USD per annum.
I am fairly sure the game makes alot more than that per annum, I sure someone has the link to the financial reports or check the MindArk website for financials. As you are a man of business, read the official reports, which they must submit to the Swedish taxation office and see what you think.

I am not worried about the ROI. I just think they need to get more players in by advertising better.
 
... i know of People who Cycle 2 Million Peds a year or more. Some Deposit it, some not. But all dont get above 100% TT-Return. So MA always gets its share.

Means, at 90 % TT-Return (that would be very high), MA keeps 200.000 Ped a year from ONE of those Players. and thats okay this way...

Yes, the System is working as long as People play. I´m sure, Calypso is having good returns since many years at all... and now its simply shared with Players...
 
SpikeBlack said:
As long as no one withdraws (unlikely for the big buyer depending on who it is) then the cash never leaves MA's bank account so the return from those keeping and spending it never leaves the system, it just gets recycled continuously.

Besides the CLD payout is based on revenue and not profit of Calypso.

http://www.citehr.com/40980-profit-vs-revenue.html

i.e. Profit = revenue - costs

which is why MA can give a 30% return on revenue as they're not taking costs into account.
Click to expand...

Dude, giving a share of the REVENUES (revenues fall and costs remain constant, so Profit will sink) is way more dangerous than giving a share of th FINAL PROFIT, as long as costs remain constant,everything will be OK, but the day costs will raise and MA is giving a part of the REVENUE, TOTAL PROFIT could be NEGATIVE and that, over some years means Bankruptcy
 
entropian12 said:
Dude, giving a share of the REVENUES (revenues fall and costs remain constant, so Profit will sink) is way more dangerous than giving a share of th FINAL PROFIT, as long as costs remain constant,everything will be OK, but the day costs will raise and MA is giving a part of the REVENUE, TOTAL PROFIT could be NEGATIVE and that, over some years means Bankruptcy
Click to expand...

 
Operating Profit from MA in 2011 is -12M SEK, if you cannot create value with your activities, you are quite F**KED.

And every company gives a share of the revenue in the form of dividends, but no company offers 22% of dividend.

Offering such a high dividend means MA is not saving money for future growth, and thats quite bad.
 
entropian12 said:
Operating Profit from MA in 2011 is -12M SEK, if you cannot create value with your activities, you are quite F**KED.

And every company gives a share of the revenue in the form of dividends, but no company offers 22% of dividend.
Click to expand...

First it isn't dividend.

Second once they are all sold (in case people didn't notice MA as recently sold some more)
the return rate will drop

my guess is not lower than 12% for 2013

12% on risky venture capital isn't that uncommon payback.

MA from previous years with loss would probably fail to get a bank loan for such rate anyway.

So for the next 9 month I still do expect weekly average to allow for over 20% year.
 
entropian12 said:
Operating Profit from MA in 2011 is -12M SEK, if you cannot create value with your activities, you are quite F**KED.

And every company gives a share of the revenue in the form of dividends, but no company offers 22% of dividend.

Offering such a high dividend means MA is not saving money for future growth, and thats quite bad.
Click to expand...

Think you're a little confused on this 22% is the ROI based on the initial outlay of the deed. So if I paid 1000 ped for my initial cld and recevied 220 ped over the course of twelve months I have a 22% ROI. It doesn't mean the company is giving a 22% dividend.

Also not every company gives a share of the revenue in the form of dividends, it is a means of distributing profit. Some companies apportion a part of their profits as dividends others retain profits.
 
I'd be interested to see a report of EUs total ingame assets (TT wise) versus MA's total worth (active+passive) :rolleyes: ... till that, is all "virtual" assets that can be created out of thin pixel glare and dissapear back into Lotius magical realm :laugh:
 
Anhithe said:
Think you're a little confused on this 22% is the ROI based on the initial outlay of the deed. So if I paid 1000 ped for my initial cld and recevied 220 ped over the course of twelve months I have a 22% ROI. It doesn't mean the company is giving a 22% dividend.

Also not every company gives a share of the revenue in the form of dividends, it is a means of distributing profit. Some companies apportion a part of their profits as dividends others retain profits.
Click to expand...

Yep, you are right. Also is not a 22%, since it is a 22% over 1000 peds (100USD), but now, the current price of CLDs is way higher (over 1200 peds), so its 18,33% more or less.
 
If you study anything business related, you know that risk and yield are related. CLD are very high risk, so the yield will represent this.

entropian12 said:
Sorry for the disturbing title, but I need to create audience ;)

Ok, so, going straight to the point. When CLDs were released, I suffered a big pain in my heart, since they were offering aprox. 30% ROI :)eyecrazy:). I study Business Administration, and due to the knowledge I get in my degree and pevious experiences of incredible investments, which finally turned into scamms, I doubt about CLD.

Currently, I remember CLDs are getting an aprox 22% ROI, which is still extremely high to support.

And my question is...

Do you really think revenue from Calypso is high enough to give MA benefit, but also giving CLDs owners a 22% ROI or is MA manipulating this ROI in order to postpone an inevitable collapse of the system?

Thank you! :yay:
Click to expand...
 
Obviously risk is related to the yield offered, I also know that equity is more expensive than debt, but 22% is an incredible ROI which will lead the system to the collapse.
 
Buffer

MA are probably aware that the 'tt+ assets' IG will buffer dividend withdrawal until the ROI equalizes. Current CLD selling price (with respect to drop in dividends), suggests a reallocation of IG assets from equipment to CLD.

'tt+' will bottom out before CLD ROI makes sense.
 
I believe that the ROI is only projected, not promised. 22% is definitely a great ROI and rivals the DOT-COM bubble of the late 90's/early 2000's. I have noticed that some weeks are far better than others with my CLDs. So I imagine that all they really are is a share of the revenue stream, not a promised rate of return, and may not be doomed to collapse - perhaps the worst that will happen is the weekly revenue could drop to 0 PED.

I often wonder what will happen if the Land-Ownership function is ever implemented. Will we have to convert our CLDs to special Land Deeds? Will the revenue sharing cease when land is owned? At this point we can already own Malls, Apartments, Houses, Castles, Land Areas, Shops, Booths, Shacks, Cabins, etc... what will CLD Properties be like? I almost wish CLDs would have been named: Calypso Citizenship Deeds (CCDs - with the promised voting rights and revenue sharing) then their future would not seem so ambiguous.
 
entropian12 said:
Sorry for the disturbing title, but I need to create audience ;)

Ok, so, going straight to the point. When CLDs were released, I suffered a big pain in my heart, since they were offering aprox. 30% ROI :)eyecrazy:). I study Business Administration, and due to the knowledge I get in my degree and pevious experiences of incredible investments, which finally turned into scamms, I doubt about CLD.

Currently, I remember CLDs are getting an aprox 22% ROI, which is still extremely high to support.

And my question is...

Do you really think revenue from Calypso is high enough to give MA benefit, but also giving CLDs owners a 22% ROI or is MA manipulating this ROI in order to postpone an inevitable collapse of the system?

Thank you! :yay:
Click to expand...

Well, first off, your ROI is a little high. Last week the return was 4.12 peds per deed. Times 52 weeks equals 214 peds a year. And divide that by 1300 as the going rate of a deed gives about 16.5%

I agree that the original returns promised were very high. I just assumed that meant the price they were giving them away at was too low. I was right. I thought the price would reach 1500, but the returns fell quite a bit so the price stalled. 16% return is ok return for a high risk investment.
 
subscribing to epic thread of lols.


This thread is really interesting, keep on going and I will keep reading :D

Really nice to see what people think about the CLD's and MA's income or w/e you would call it :)
 
Uvas said:
Well, first off, your ROI is a little high. Last week the return was 4.12 peds per deed. Times 52 weeks equals 214 peds a year. And divide that by 1300 as the going rate of a deed gives about 16.5%

I agree that the original returns promised were very high. I just assumed that meant the price they were giving them away at was too low. I was right. I thought the price would reach 1500, but the returns fell quite a bit so the price stalled. 16% return is ok return for a high risk investment.
Click to expand...



Given it is 16.5% ROI with the new player adjusted price, true :)


It would be, from MA's point of view, 21.4% if the price still were where it started... Those who were in and bought them at 1k a piece were really lucky, imo :)

Still a nice investment tho, as long as it might last lol :)
 
-Archangel- said:
First it isn't dividend.

Second once they are all sold (in case people didn't notice MA as recently sold some more)
the return rate will drop
my guess is not lower than 12% for 2013

12% on risky venture capital isn't that uncommon payback.

MA from previous years with loss would probably fail to get a bank loan for such rate anyway.

So for the next 9 month I still do expect weekly average to allow for over 20% year.
Click to expand...

I guess, you missed the part where those CLD's came from. The total of 60.000 CLD's have not been increased due to MA selling "more". Those were bought from an 'early' investor, and redistributed: https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/showthread.php?234076-MindArk-Buys-Back-Calypso-Land-Deeds
 
22% ROI they may give - but how many people actually withdraw? Also, they are giving out "virtual" currency with a 42 day wait for withdrawals -minus commision. 99% populace will actually end up recycling it instead.

So no, this "pyramid effect" will work just fine unless everyone decides to withdraw each week - which in it self is unfeasible due to fees and minimum amount limitations.

MA are a clever bunch. ;)
 
Few Scars said:
60000 CLDs sold at 1000Ped each. $6 million USD injected into the game. If I recall, MA had said that 25% of the game income would fund the CLD ROI. So over the course of an average 52 week year. A 1000 Ped CLD will return 22% or 220Ped over a year. That times 60k is 13200000Ped ($1.32 Million USD). Now if that is 25% of the total annual income, then the game would only make $5.28 million USD per annum.
I am fairly sure the game makes alot more than that per annum, I sure someone has the link to the financial reports or check the MindArk website for financials. As you are a man of business, read the official reports, which they must submit to the Swedish taxation office and see what you think.

I am not worried about the ROI. I just think they need to get more players in by advertising better.
Click to expand...

It is 25% of Calypso renenue that funds the CLD payouts, so revenue generated by other planets and space would account for MA making more than in your calculation. I'm not saying you're wrong (Caly is most likely still the biggest revenue generator by far), just making the point.
 
MA just released 5000 deeds out of the 60.000 we were offered. A few of them (2000?) if I remember it correctly was in p2p trade wich granted that the virtual ownership would be spread among a shitload of recipients.
Most of those will pump the peds right back into the game...

Im just saying that over 3% of the total 60.000 deeds was re-distributed into society in a very smart way.. Imagine how much more of the divident is pumped back into the pools by gamers that only has a few deeds..

I would like to say to every worried man and woman what I tell everyone that is very scared of their first scuba diving session..

- What ever you do, make sure you use the seat belt when driving to the dive center.. If you survive that, you'll be perfectly fine.. :poke:

Hint:CLDs along with MA may fuck up.. but hey, if you got your life savings in a virtual universe you are already pretty fucked up :O
 
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