Is it time for MA to be transparent with player costs/expected values?

[San]

... This leads to a long-term cost of play that is just not sustainable. MA needs to get their house in order.

But that they have. They need your money for their own sustenance. The old game we miss so dearly was lossy for them. I don't know how to square this circle, either. If you want to come out ahead or at least with lower cost, you need to find a competitive advantage and take it from your fellow players. It is a mathematical law that only a minority can achieve this.

I would also like more transparency regarding the cost, though. A monthly update of the cumulative target return, as suggested above, would be in order. However, we also know what's going to happen then. People who refuse to understand statistics mistake this for their individual target, or even entitlement, and will make a bloody nuisance out of themselves when that is not reached. I understand why the leadership doesn't want that. But something is amiss, most of all a better idea.

 

[ColonelBuckshot]

A private interface in game that you could press a button to query expected TT return on the mob your shooting, factoring in your loadout and skills would be cool. Just a simple % would be cool and would just be confirmation that the work you put in (and investment) is helping. Then seeeing your expected % increasing overtime would be great (especially for people who are on their journey growing their avatar)

 

[PreyNaika]

95 % 1.000.000 ped
Results into 950.000 ped

Now you need to recover 50.000 ped
How am i able to recover this ?

MU
You need to loot items worth mu in order to recover from a TT loss

How do i loot mu ?

Upgrade your dpp

Damage per pec will enable you to loot more mu over trash, it will also allow you to kill more monster for your ped.

Upgrade your efficiency, and your looter skill

Efficiency and looter will enable you to get more ped in tt return, the higher the looter and or efficiency on your weapon the more peds you get back.

Reduce your Overall costs , healing , armor ,pills ,healer

This will decrease your costs.

Why do i need a bankroll?
In order to keep stuff with low mu untill it reaches high mu , then you sell it when its high in order to make more profit.

So what do i need to do in order to make my hunting profitable ?

Buy armor , to hunt big mobs
Buy rings, to increase dpp/decrease healing or defence costs
Buy a high efficiency weapon, to get more ped back
Skill evader
Skill looter
Skill HP
Check Wiki and go with the mu

Why big mobs and not small mobs ?

Simple fact is small mobs do drop
1. Junk
2. Everyone is able to hunt them
3. HP of mob increases your input of peds
If you got good dpp it will increase the amount of mu if you got Bad dpp it increases your junk


Will it come over night ?
Hell no ...

Will it come in one year ?
Yes if you use a F macro or bot


Is it worth it ?
Yes

Is it easy ?
Depends on you


Those are very public Infos, and everyone who ignores those facts : better play something else or dont complain about your loss


Great tip :

If you still not able to recover your loss , it means you sold your stuff to cheap. And its time to skill your trading skills

Keep in mind that in a economy there will allways , allways be one Person who does loss and one Person who gets profit. its on you

I hope i Was able to help some lost rookies or atleast bump them into the right direction.

 

[ChronicDeadEye]

Fluff

Well you heard it here folks, you just use the "one simple trick" and you can all profit. If only everyone knew all of this intricate knowledge of the system years ago, which you obviously possess, we'd all be cashing out on our yachts.

Darn.

 

[PreyNaika]

 

[San]

If you still not able to recover your loss , it means you sold your stuff to cheap. And its time to skill your trading skills

Keep in mind that in a economy there will allways , allways be one Person who does loss and one Person who gets profit. its on you

I hope i Was able to help some lost rookies or atleast bump them into the right direction.

In principle, yes. Now rookies in logic just need to detect the contradiction in there.

 

[Simpleton]

I've been here since 04. It would take many ATHs to do that.

and I hear you on the swings. There will be good and bad swings but the good swings just barely keep my head above water and the bad ones are insultingly bad. This leads to a long-term cost of play that is just not sustainable. MA needs to get their house in order.

No problem.

When you are ready, you can go back and read what I had to say about tt returns and you can then, from that information, see how it applies or can be applied to your situation. Or at least while the information is still there and not gone due to being moderated.

Long term costs of play is unavoidable. Someone has to pay the 5% that game takes from everyone. Some players are simply in a better position than others to do so.

MA can decide whatever they want. Its their game. Bashing the company is totally pointless, and demanding anything from them while continuing to pour money into their pockets will not change anything. The only power here is money, and I believe that MA will want to be in business for as long as possible and therefore make decisions based on money.

Now, on topic. Yes, there are some aspects of transparency that I would like to see. TT returns are not one of them since I have already listed out the variables in that formula and there is enough information on the forum to validate it, including other topics by OP. Instead, I would like more transparency of what can be looted from a mob. For example, if there are items that require a million ped cycled to be looted then I would like to know what those items are and the expected cycle to obtain it before I start hunting a mob, or even if there are any such rare items to be looted from the mob at all. There are so many mobs in the game and it simply is impossible for any one player to do a million ped cycle on every mob in the game to get the full picture of what can be looted. In my case, despite cycling over a million ped on a particular mob, I never looted a rare item that was reported to drop from it. Who knows, maybe I was just unlucky, maybe the item was just never supposed to drop from that mob or maybe I didn't cycle enough. My point is that those kind of results are bad for the perceived integrity of the game, not knowing what can be looted and just getting trash loot while simultaneously just supposed to trust the system is the absolute worst thing I know. So yes, transparency is a good thing.

 

[smoothee]

MA can decide whatever they want. Its their game. Bashing the company is totally pointless, and demanding anything from them while continuing to pour money into their pockets will not change anything. The only power here is money, and I believe that MA will want to be in business for as long as possible and therefore make decisions based on money.

that's just it... I've stopped depositing as much. MANY people have as well or they just quit. Their rake is set far too high and it's killing this game

When you are ready, you can go back and read what I had to say about tt returns and you can then, from that information, see how it applies or can be applied to your situation.

a condescending tone will only convince children.

 

[Simpleton]

a condescending tone will only convince children.

Fair enough. It was not my intention to be condescending. I did not want to repeat myself and I also felt that the way you communicated was not of someone that was consistently cycling any serious amounts at all. Also, I don't know what your gear is or your looter levels, so any blanket statements regarding your specific tt returns would be bad form. So that was the only way I thought I could remain somewhat respectful towards you without being an ass, but apparently I failed. Would you recommend any way for me to word it differently?

Thanks

Also, while you are thinking over what to say, please be mindful that I brought some valuable perspective to the topic that I haven't seen discussed elsewhere while I have mostly seen you
whine

... but I'm not even getting 86%

flex

I've been here since 04.

complain

MA needs to get their house in order.

and critisize the way I communicate

a condescending tone will only convince children.

where is your perspective on the topic being discussed, which is transparency on costs/expected values?

 

[smoothee]

It was not my intention to be condescending.

sure bud

Would you recommend any way for me to word it differently?

even more so

I have a maxed MM with looter of 65. Been here 19 years.
I'm saying the juice ain't worth the squeeze. I've seen a lot of friends leave from being oversqueezed. Those were good people who would still been here if MA thought less about daily earnings and more about long term player retention

5% rake from 100 spendy players is nothing compared to 1% rake on 100,000 spendy players

 

[Simpleton]

sure bud

even more so

I have a maxed MM with looter of 65. Been here 19 years.
I'm saying the juice ain't worth the squeeze. I've seen a lot of friends leave from being oversqueezed. Those were good people who would still been here if MA thought less about daily earnings and more about long term player retention

5% rake from 100 spendy players is nothing compared to 1% rake on 100,000 spendy players

I don't disagree with your rake statement regarding number of players. After all, we are in the same boat, I am a player, like you, and like you and your friends I have "seen the light" and reduced my gameplay.

With your gear and skills, in my experience, longterm returns (i.e. 10k+ mob kills in a row of same creature and maturity) tends to yield 95% given current ratio of the bonus shrapnel being 5%, it could very well be under 5% today. It used to be higher just 1-2 years ago when the bonus shrapnel % could be as high as 6-7%, but the playerbase is gradually growing in looter skills and also efficiency due to influx of better gear and fewer but more skilled players. In addition to that, you might be able to pull off extra 1-2% during easter/halloween mayhem when the playerbase is mainly doing mayhem by hunting something else with your highest looter type.

I don't know what you mean by 'sure bud' and 'even more so', English is not my first language. But hey, I am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt that there is good intent there.

 

[PreyNaika]

I do not understand where people got the idea from

That looter lvl and efficiency got to do with playerbase.

You can have the whole Server on looter lvl 100 , this will not change the return of a lvl 90 or lvl 110 looter, based on the amount of players with high lvl looter.

 

[Msturlese]

I think something is still not clear.
average PED Survival rate is 33% (savings of MA on each year).
sorry but this is the FACT.
according to MA balance account there is a 40.000.000 PED destruction per year
(this is where a 4.000.000 USD revenue come from)
these 40m PED are to be paid by someone in terms of MU trasfered by gaining and loosing players
this is basica accounting...

going a step further,
for each PED that my ped card grows at year end YOU (as a community) must loose 4 ped (at 97% return)

is this sustainable? yes and no.
if there is people that play for the fun on a budget that people is ready to loose 1...1.000.000 ped shooting
if we all aim to self sustain or make ped just to upgrade, not to withdraw, this is not sustainable.

because the gaming cost extracted by MA destroy ped and make the residual ped be worth more and more
and items be worth less and less.
if a quarter see a fall of deposits we will experience a drop in asset value because the game is deflactionary.
this is simple economics. the more money the less it is worth and vice-versa

best asset in game will be Shrapnels, because shrapnels produce money from recycle.

This is already the case, huntloot loose mu, minerals loose mu apart those used to enhance weapon power to seek some niche of better return.

 

[Simpleton]

I do not understand where people got the idea from

That looter lvl and efficiency got to do with playerbase.

You can have the whole Server on looter lvl 100 , this will not change the return of a lvl 90 or lvl 110 looter, based on the amount of players with high lvl looter.

Ok, I will try to explain it as I see it.

The rake by MA is constant, most likely 5% given the official numbers. It cant be more than 5.29% since that was the average lost by the playerbase in those average of 94.71%. So, to me it makes sense that the rake is a constant 5% and the remaining is the unclaimed loot pool. In my experience, crafting with a maxed SIB blueprint gives 95% tt returns long term, so I see no reason why hunting would be different. If it were not a constant, could you describe the effects of that on the rake split that goes to planet partners? Well, I cant.

Ok, so we have probably sufficiently established that the rake is constant (you can disagree with me, its ok). Then players, on average, put in 100 ped and receive back 95 ped. So far so good.

Now, on the way back, the peds go through additional filters, those 95 peds are fully returned but not necessarily to the player that spent them.
HA (i.e. maxed) is up to 10%
Looter is up to 7%
Efficiency is up to 7%.
Ok, so lets take for example smoothee, since he was kind enough to share his setup.
HA - 10%
Looter 4,55% (0.65*7%)
Efficiency 4,9% (0.7*7%)
Add those up and you get 19.45 out of possible 24.
24-19.45 = 4,55 are peds that are not claimed by smoothee out of every 100 peds spent. Ok, so where do they go? we have already established that MA rake is constant, so these unclaimed peds must go somewhere, and they do. They go to the bonus shrapnel pool, you know, that second shrapnel loot that can sometimes be seen.

Some players pay more and some players pay less towards the bonus shrapnel pool, based on their skills, efficiency and maxed/not. Players then claim a portion of the bonus shrapnel pool based on their hunting, whether it is number of kills or turnover doesn't really matter. It gets distributed and it varies depending on what the entire playerbase is hunting and the setup used. This causes some players to go over 95% returns and some players to not even reach 95%.

So, that is how looter and efficiency has got to do with playerbase. Players with less looter and less efficiency are losing their money to higher looter and higher efficiency directly through the bonus shrapnel mechanic. MA still claims their 5% no matter what.

Example:
Player A: 100 looter, 85 efficiency, maxed, loses 1,05% to the bonus shrapnel pool
Player B: 65 looter, 70 efficiency, maxed, loses 4,55% to the bonus shrapnel pool
Both players hunt similarly for this example and there are only these two players in this example.
Bonus pool splits evenly between both players and both receive 2.8% from the bonus pool.
Player A tt return = 95-1.05+2.8 = 96,75%
Player B tt return = 95-4.55+2.8 = 93,25%
Note: this is just example to show the mathematics. In actuality the bonus shrapnel pool is dynamic and I have observed it between 4-7% with the overall trend of it shrinking over the past couple years. So if we assume 5% bonus shrapnel loot then Player B would have 95-4.55+5=95,45%, but realistically most of the time there is a small portion of the peds in the lootpool waiting to come out in a multiplier so I gave smoothee a realistic expectation of 95% rather than the upper bound.

Am I wrong? Possibly. I am not infallible and I don't have access to the source code to see the actual numbers. But this has worked for me quite well to explain my long term tt returns during the past few years. This is not observed on a pec to pec basis. You must hunt a lot and have a reliable long term log to see these trends.

 

[Jhereg]

I think this thread has run its course and has devolved into theorizing about how MA makes their money and how much. Which is kind of the reason why I made this thread.

The whole point of this thread was to determine level of support for MA making it transparent about how much of player cycle they are absorbing as rake, with some detail over time.

If a mod sees this, this thread can be locked.

 

[dakusingh]

It seems like people want to make Hunting like Crafting - A machine where you enter your Mob, Maturity, Weapon (Including Attachments), Armour etc... and then load up ammo and click "GO", then watch the % timer as each mob is generating "loot". In the end, you get a summary of your hunt, including TT % Returned.

 

[Deleted member 69849]

It seems like people want to make Hunting like Crafting - A machine where you enter your Mob, Maturity, Weapon (Including Attachments), Armour etc... and then load up ammo and click "GO", then watch the % timer as each mob is generating "loot". In the end, you get a summary of your hunt, including TT % Returned.

couldnt have said it better

 

[Evey]

I've been here since 04. It would take many ATHs to do that.

This can mean your expectasions of expected tt return are too high or activity is too low to have constant results. I said it many times, looking at high cycles data, a cycle can be around 2 years for active players. But many people will still judge after 5 prots, getting mad of the outcome...

 

[ChronicDeadEye]

This can mean your expectasions of expected tt return are too high or activity is too low to have constant results. I said it many times, looking at high cycles data, a cycle can be around 2 years for active players. But many people will still judge after 5 prots, getting mad of the outcome...

I've never seen a better example of the Gambler's Fallacy. However, this is why the thread was made - it's pointless to speculate based on the word of MA and certain hunting/mining/crafting logs from people who haven't quit yet. The idea that if someone loses it can't be the system, MA, or manipulation, and must be on the player and how they play. That's a cultist attitude and ignores every other realistic possibility outside of the most low-level definition of efficiency and loot events.

You end with another fallacy; no reasonable person has ever judged based on a small data set, and a majority who have left have seen the picture clearly. You doing well yourself is not indicative of you actually doing anything "right" no matter how many times it swings in your favour. That is just a logical fact that can't be denied unless you have insider knowledge no one else is aware of.

 

[Simpleton]

I've never seen a better example of the Gambler's Fallacy. However, this is why the thread was made - it's pointless to speculate based on the word of MA and certain hunting/mining/crafting logs from people who haven't quit yet. The idea that if someone loses it can't be the system, MA, or manipulation, and must be on the player and how they play. That's a cultist attitude and ignores every other realistic possibility outside of the most low-level definition of efficiency and loot events.

You end with another fallacy; no reasonable person has ever judged based on a small data set, and a majority who have left have seen the picture clearly. You doing well yourself is not indicative of you actually doing anything "right" no matter how many times it swings in your favour. That is just a logical fact that can't be denied unless you have insider knowledge no one else is aware of.

I see a divide between low cyclers and high cyclers. High cyclers do their thing, and post their results giving approximations for what can be expected longterm. Low cyclers do their thing and cant comprehend why their results are so much worse than the high cyclers since they expect the same results despite only hunting an hour or two per week and then switching mobs. Then, high cyclers give very plausible explanations for why low cyclers are having such hard time and low cyclers go into some form of denial, spewing endless nonsense and in doing so get the support of their fellow low cyclers that are in similar situation, not understanding the core issue behind their lacking results.

From a high cyclers perspective it seems like nothing can be done other than stay silent.

 

[Ludvig|MindArk]

Locked per request from thread starter and since he is correct in that it's mostly veered off topic; if anyone wishes to continue discussing these other topics, please create a new thread on that topic instead.