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Is it time for MA to be transparent with player costs/expected values?

Is it time for MA to be transparent with player costs/expected values?

  • Total voters
    104
  • Poll closed .
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Sub-Zero said:
I think more transparency would be good for the game. If you know that you're quite a bit below expected avg return ...
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If you are below expected, you'll make even more support cases (not you, Sub-zero, but many players) demanding better tt return, because if expected would be 96%, after 10 proterons, you will be very far from the average...
As I said in another thread, if some official numbers are to be given, they must include the entire flow. Many people have high MU input too and they look at ped card after a hunt and forget they payed a lot on Ls, pills, enh etc. Most people judge their returns after a smaller batch than they should so if any numbers are given, they should be include all expenses, the entire flow. I thought loot was awful, 6 years ago, until I started tracking exactly what I was spending on decay (+ammo) and what went into MU.
 
thee pepe said:
You’re forgetting a new player comes in buys starter pack and has 400something Ped left in ammo to shoot through a barbarella. I’m guessing it takes a damn long time to cycle that through a barbarella.

I’m sure someone knows how long it is to cycle 100peds through barbarella.
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Unamped Barbarella with no reload buffs burns 0.0217*48=1.0416 PED/minute.

Density of puny spawns is fairly good on most planets, so perhaps cycling 50 ped/hour can reasonably be assumed.
 
Does MA need to post something like this again in order to make you happy? Like an update based on this years' data?

Developer Notes 13 - Loot-2.0 Statistics

Developer Notes #13 - Loot 2.0 Statistics The MindArk design team has been closely monitoring the impact of Loot 2.0, recently implemented in Version Update 15.15. We have also been following the many interesting and valuable discussions on community forums and thought it would be helpful to...
www.planetcalypsoforum.com www.planetcalypsoforum.com
 
Evey said:
If you are below expected, you'll make even more support cases (not you, Sub-zero, but many players) demanding better tt return, because if expected would be 96%, after 10 proterons, you will be very far from the average...
As I said in another thread, if some official numbers are to be given, they must include the entire flow. Many people have high MU input too and they look at ped card after a hunt and forget they payed a lot on Ls, pills, enh etc. Most people judge their returns after a smaller batch than they should so if any numbers are given, they should be include all expenses, the entire flow. I thought loot was awful, 6 years ago, until I started tracking exactly what I was spending on decay (+ammo) and what went into MU.
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Would have to be more advanced with a disclaimer that based on your amount of kills on a creature the short term return can vary greatly.
Stats like expected return vs amount of ped cycled for the week/month/year.
There could be similar data accessible in game for players who cycle a certain amount per month and you could compare it vs your own avatar. a searchable database where you input amount of cycle over a time frame.
If they showed data like expected amount of kills per mob to reach expected return based on your gear and looters lvls.
 
Viewing this thread, it's sad that I had higher expectations of some of the older players here. The delusion is incredible; at any instance you're ready to call foul at the hundreds of major mistakes they've made (printing PED, items, unbreakable amps, drops all to the same person) but when it comes down to anything that may affect YOUR bottom line you cry out like it's your last saving breath.

This in itself is why we will never see change. What we need is a little more intellectual honesty from the players, because some of the replies here are so cringe it's hard to believe someone didn't have a gun to your head when you wrote it.

People with money play this game, people with wealth do not. The more I see people trying to flex their "knowledge" or "money" I know we're right above target.
 
fred5283 said:
Does MA need to post something like this again in order to make you happy? Like an update based on this years' data?

Developer Notes 13 - Loot-2.0 Statistics

Developer Notes #13 - Loot 2.0 Statistics The MindArk design team has been closely monitoring the impact of Loot 2.0, recently implemented in Version Update 15.15. We have also been following the many interesting and valuable discussions on community forums and thought it would be helpful to...
www.planetcalypsoforum.com www.planetcalypsoforum.com
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Or maybe monthly since looter professions came out. Notice how we didn't get such an update when looter professions came out? :sneaky::sneaky::sneaky:
 
ChronicDeadEye said:
Viewing this thread, it's sad that I had higher expectations of some of the older players here. The delusion is incredible; at any instance you're ready to call foul at the hundreds of major mistakes they've made (printing PED, items, unbreakable amps, drops all to the same person) but when it comes down to anything that may affect YOUR bottom line you cry out like it's your last saving breath.

This in itself is why we will never see change. What we need is a little more intellectual honesty from the players, because some of the replies here are so cringe it's hard to believe someone didn't have a gun to your head when you wrote it.

People with money play this game, people with wealth do not. The more I see people trying to flex their "knowledge" or "money" I know we're right above target.
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just because you dont agree with some comments dont make them "cringe"

anyone that can math can get their own statistics. it is very easy to track your own returns people just dont bother.

you could have a bright green neon sign with all the statistics in the world and players would still EP4/shrapnel craft like degenerates and lv13amp on foma, thats just human nature and it keeps the economy going
 
nightbloom said:
just because you dont agree with some comments dont make them "cringe"

anyone that can math can get their own statistics. it is very easy to track your own returns people just dont bother.

you could have a bright green neon sign with all the statistics in the world and players would still EP4/shrapnel craft like degenerates and lv13amp on foma, thats just human nature and it keeps the economy going
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Nothing I said had anything to do with return or anything of that nature, it was about transparency; you've missed the point entirely, just like you have throughout this thread. This isn't Reddit, if you have a coherent point that is based in logic and fact I'm more than happy to hear your rebuttal.
 
If they gonna give out more info one thing that they have to repeat in almost absurdum is that these numbers are
about average, not about a specific individual.
Another thing to show is that isn't only about where you are in the hierachy, you can be a player seen as low
level player due to what they hunt but still be very efficient due to right set up and knowledge about most things in EU.
It isn't easy for them to find a balance in what they can say and not, if they only could say it in a more direct way,
and not as when they e.g described Optimal Loot.
 
Jhereg said:
Or maybe monthly since looter professions came out. Notice how we didn't get such an update when looter professions came out? :sneaky::sneaky::sneaky:
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Yeah, it does make you wonder, 😏🤨🧐🤓😳😂😋
 
Since a large % of players are habitual gamblers I think "knowing everything" would suck the fun out of the game.

Very unpopular opinion: the most fun I had was in Project Entropia days, pre loot-2.0 when loot was super unpredictable.
 
messi91 said:
Loot 1.0 was never random and neither is loot 2.0.
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I remember week 1 noobs hitting 10k plus mining hofs unmapped just meters outside PA sweat camp prior to cryengine. There was definitely some degree of random.
 
addz said:
There was definitely some degree of random.
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If you look at that isolated event during that day you can call it random but did you asked them all who hit that what are their return after another 6 months of playing?
 
messi91 said:
If you look at that isolated event during that day you can call it random but did you asked them all who hit that what are their return after another 6 months of playing?
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I think the description of coincidence is suiting. They prolly had a loss compared to the hof minus expected tt. What “a remarkable concurrence of events or circumstances without apparent causal connection.” :D
 
messi91 said:
Loot 1.0 was never random and neither is loot 2.0.
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He's probably correct here. From a design perspective it makes sense. I don't know if MA ever confirmed it though.
Not many people were tracking their returns back then either.

It definitely "felt" random due to the insane volatility.

Loot 1.0 was definitely more interesting.

Rich Rugaritz

A Potential $50,000 Mining Claim https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/gallery/files/6/7/2/5/historic_ruga1.jpgTuesday, 31st October 2006, the avatar Paris Dub Hilton found the largest Rugaritz deposit in the history of Entropia Universe. The “Rich (XXIII)” claim was found at a depth of 903...
www.planetcalypsoforum.com www.planetcalypsoforum.com
 
ZPF said:
Since a large % of players are habitual gamblers I think "knowing everything" would suck the fun out of the game.

Very unpopular opinion: the most fun I had was in Project Entropia days, pre loot-2.0 when loot was super unpredictable.
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Whether nostalgia or otherwise, pre-CE was the most fun and certainly the most active in terms of community engagement within the game.

The argument about how predictable it was is something else entirely, and in any case, it was a much more interesting system. There was certainly a larger gap in margins if you weren't careful, and that's why we have 2.0. Where knowledge was the majority of your returns in the past, it's now mostly brute force and timing. That isn't my opinion either, they are simply the mechanics of the game now driven by ultra-efficient weapons, looter skill, and a heavy bankroll requirement to make the most of MU.
 
ZPF said:
He's probably correct here. From a design perspective it makes sense. I don't know if MA ever confirmed it though.
Not many people were tracking their returns back then either.

It definitely "felt" random due to the insane volatility.

Loot 1.0 was definitely more interesting.

Rich Rugaritz

A Potential $50,000 Mining Claim https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/gallery/files/6/7/2/5/historic_ruga1.jpgTuesday, 31st October 2006, the avatar Paris Dub Hilton found the largest Rugaritz deposit in the history of Entropia Universe. The “Rich (XXIII)” claim was found at a depth of 903...
www.planetcalypsoforum.com www.planetcalypsoforum.com
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I remember reading this thread a long time ago as well from @dub Something like 700k PED.
 
NevadaJake said:
I remember reading this thread a long time ago as well from @dub Something like 700k PED.
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The true ATH of ATHs.
In today's markup it would be worth over 200k USD I think. Except no one would buy that much Rugaritz!

I remember seeing that HOF as a teenager and thinking "Wow, anything is possible in this game."
 
Jhereg said:
MA currently has a built in distribution function that applies multipliers to returns in order to create a casino-like mechanism within Entropia. This has been the reality for the game ever since the birth of Planet Calypso.

One main reason for having this type of system is promote player activity (hits provide a gambling-like aspect to the game that results in dopamine and the need to continue the activity). Whether EU qualifies as casino gambling is not the topic of this post however, but is an important question for MA to tackle for the safety and survival of the game.

The second reason, which I think is just as if not more problematic, is that this allows MA to hide actual player costs to play, i.e. MA's rake. Recently there has been regulations that force casinos and video games to post odds/EVs of their games publicly. Casinos that are properly regulated are made to be transparent about EVs to their players. Yet EU still is not transparent about actual player costs.

Consider a mental experiment: Would EU work if the multiplier system is taken away, and you get exactly what your expected value is for each mob? Yes it would, but MA would be forced to display to the player what their cost to play is.

Whatever the reason is for MA to continue to hide their fee/rake from the individual player, I question whether this obfuscation is ethical.

Some possible solutions would be to display expected value to individual players/MA's rake, or just remove the multiplier system altogether.
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Great idea, but this would of course tell players the amount of loss, so might put them off completely.
 
Jhereg said:
The second reason, which I think is just as if not more problematic, is that this allows MA to hide actual player costs to play, i.e. MA's rake.
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Educated guess says MA's rake is 5%

Bertha Bot said:
  • Net return for all hunting activity since VU 15.15: 94.71%
These return rates are very close to MindArk’s targets for Loot 2.0
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Then the logical question is, "well, then how come some players are getting more than 95%?". It is simple, the high efficiency + high level looter players are getting those extra % beyond 95% from players that are lower in the efficiency + looter hierarchy. Efficiency and looter are PvEvP stats that directly move tt returns from players ranking lower in those two stats to those that rank higher. This is accomplished through the bonus shrapnel mechanic. A player with 100 looter, 100 efficiency and maxed weapon provides 0 peds towards the bonus shrapnel pool while collecting a portion from that pool during the hunting session that other players provide to the pool. Similarly, a 0 looter, 0 efficiency and 0 HA will provide either 22.8 or 24 peds to the pool out of every 100 peds spent hunting. Last time I measured the bonus shrapnel loot, it was about 5%, so covering the rake by MA. As the playerbase grows in looter skills and efficiency, the bonus shrapnel pool will shrink, and players that are currently enjoying 98% tt returns will get less than 98%. If there were only one hunter in the entire game, no matter what looter or efficiency he were to have, that player would obtain 95% consistently due to MA's rake of 5% and getting the full bonus pool that he keeps providing peds into.
 
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Simpleton said:
Educated guess says MA's rake is 5%



Then the logical question is, "well, then how come some players are getting more than 95%?". It is simple, the high efficiency + high level looter players are getting those extra % beyond 95% from players that are lower in the efficiency + looter hierarchy. Efficiency and looter are PvEvP stats that directly move tt returns from players ranking lower in those two stats to those that rank higher. This is accomplished through the bonus shrapnel mechanic. A player with 100 looter, 100 efficiency and maxed weapon provides 0 peds towards the bonus shrapnel pool while collecting a portion from that pool during the hunting session that other players provide to the pool. Similarly, a 0 looter, 0 efficiency and 0 HA will provide either 22.8 or 24 peds to the pool out of every 100 peds spent hunting. Last time I measured the bonus shrapnel loot, it was about 5%, so covering the rake by MA. As the playerbase grows in looter skills and efficiency, the bonus shrapnel pool will shrink, and players that are currently enjoying 98% tt returns will get less than 98%. If there were only one hunter in the entire game, no matter what looter or efficiency he were to have, that player would obtain 95% consistently due to MA's rake of 5% and getting the full bonus pool that he keeps providing peds into.
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OR MA's rake is whatever they need to make payroll and rent. Less players means worse returns because they need to take more from each of us who are left. This makes more people quit and the problem gets worse.

The solution is to cut the size of the company and they're (supposedly) doing just that.

Oh and I'd LOVE to have only a 5% rake. For me, the math says I should be getting better than ~96% return but I'm not even getting 86%
 
smoothee said:
OR MA's rake is whatever they need to make payroll and rent. Less players means worse returns because they need to take more from each of us who are left. This makes more people quit and the problem gets worse.

The solution is to cut the size of the company and they're (supposedly) doing just that.

Oh and I'd LOVE to have only a 5% rake. For me, the math says I should be getting better than ~96% return but I'm not even getting 86%
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Lets not forget that MA is not the only company here, there are also the planet partners. The system must therefore be consistent in how much rake is done on player activity. Those 0.29% missing in the 94.71% figure would most likely be the current loot pool at the time when those return numbers where collected and published by MA. Therefore, the average return across the playerbase can never go above 95% and would be in line with a constant 5% rake from everyone.

Short term returns can vary a lot, (i.e. few loot instances), but long term returns (i.e. many many loot instances) tend to follow a trend based on your efficiency, looter level, maxed/not, and how much other players lose to the bonus shrapnel pool. If you aren't hitting those multipliers yet to bring your average tt return to your "expected return" then keep shooting until you do, it will happen eventually.
 
Simpleton said:
If you aren't hitting those multipliers yet to bring your average tt return to your "expected return" then keep shooting until you do, it will happen eventually.
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I've been here since 04. It would take many ATHs to do that.

and I hear you on the swings. There will be good and bad swings but the good swings just barely keep my head above water and the bad ones are insultingly bad. This leads to a long-term cost of play that is just not sustainable. MA needs to get their house in order.
 
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