is loot capped?

[Acro]

Or the actual question:

is each loot (corpse looting, probe dropping, craft attempt) a seperate case, not influenced by previeous cases of the avatar; or do loot values in the past determine the outcome of future loot in a direct certain way?

For example
if Lucky mcDuck gambles with his friends, they throw coins. Ducky is lucky and gets the right answer 40 times in a row. His chances of doing so are 1 in 2 tot the power 40, which is a ridiculous high number. Still it is a finite number and each subsequent throw has a 1/2 chance of either being heads or tails; no matter how many times it already has been thrown.

So, if a coin has landed heads up 39 times; there is still a 1/2 chance it will come up heads. The question is, is the same true for loot in entropia?

MA stated that there is no personal loot pool. But this answer is misleading; since the availability of a "pool" would mean a lottery system, not a gambling system. In a pool system your outcome is tied to win a certain amount of that available pool. A gambling system makes you lose money over time since you get less than 1/2 chance.
Also, a pool system would make you get higher results, the more numbers you play. for the first you may have 1/1000 chance, second time 1/999, third 1/998... And when you got the pool, your chances are again 1/1000, but the pool might be smaller, till you fill it again.

*note* the actual principle may be made more complicated, but these are the two bases to start from.

If the first case is true; then it is possible to gain ped. Although not likely, it is always possible to come up on top. It's just in the hands of fortuna.

If the second is true, no matter how hard you try; no matter how lucky you are, you will always lose.

I don't know which one is true; I only know that one of those two is exclusively true. I know MA will never reveal this. They will say there is no personal loot pool. So that must mean that the first one is true. But it is all in the phrasing. There doesn't have to be a physical pool to get to that principle. With a sliding variable you can approach the same result as a pool. Although this wouldn't hold up in (science) court, since it can be simplified to a pool. And thus loot is capped, both in high and low numbers.

Now, while the second case; loot has a similar outcome in most cases, there is the possibility of very high diversity.
If an infinite loot simulation would be run in both scenario's; lucky mcDuck would be able to get a billion ped profit after spending 10M ped. although chances are so slim; mcDuck might have played the lottery instead.

In the second case mcDuck would never be able to make a billion ped; no matter how many iterations, even ad infinitum.

I know this sounds very theoretical; but it has some implications.
Problem is, I'm staring into the dark. So any one of you got a torch to lit this up?

 

[Acro]

After rereading some posts; it should seem that entropia is based on a coin system, instead of the lottery type system. See quote below.
Although, I'm naturally paranoid; that would be my middle name (if I could change it, I'll be called acronoid paranoid deity )

Still not convinced; maybe all those years of Marco telling little whtie lies and half truths still lingers

Just to clear up some apparent confusion and misunderstandings related to the Personal Lootpool portion of Developer Notes #2-- Entropia Universe has never had any kind of so called personal lootpool mechanic.

It seems some participants have incorrectly interpreted the developer note article to mean that personal lootpools or some other sort of loot tracking / avatar compensation mechanic existed in the past and was later removed. This is not the case.

The fundamental loot architecture in Entropia Universe has been unchanged since public beta. Of course, minor tweaks and adjustments have been made over the years to improve balancing and to accomdate new game systems, but the basic underlying concept is the same as ever.

 

[Cthulhu]

Imo it is more like a lottery system where you CAN make 1 billion peds from spending 1 million peds.
However, that would mean the other players will lose that 999million peds you profited .
And I don't mean while selling with mu, I am speaking with TT in mind.
Every ped spend in your chosen profession is up for grabs by everyone in that profession, however some limits should (and I hope) exist.

Maybe there exists that magical 90% TT return everyone is talking about but if that is true I would apply it as a whole and not individually. Meaning that if all the hunters have spend 1 billion peds total, only 900million would be available to be looted. And I certainly hope that there are some limits so it wont go to only one person lol

I have been thinking this for some time now, but now I am fairly certain I can speak my mind. The reason for this is that yesterday I read the recently posted thread about the auction of the items of a banned account and on follow-up I discovered the thread(s) about the "magic" mining amps that didn't decay some years back which were used by certain individuals.
And from what I read and figured out, there was a LOT of TT profit made by certain people at the cost of every poor soul who was mining for ores for some time (months ???) and wondered why the hell he/she cant find any, while at the same time enmatter mining worked as expected.

If a personal loot pool or safety limit or anything like that exists, these individuals wouldnt be able to do that sort of thing.

Bear in mind though that these are the thoughts of a very new player so take them very lightly
After all these are all theories, I don't think we will ever know for sure.

 

[Acro]

Thank you for this interesting remark. I was on a small break during that time; so that went unnoticed for me.

 

[atomicstorm]

I have more to add and I will when I'm not on my phone but..

The thread question is misleading. I am told there is a theoretical loot cap at around 2500 or 2600x the cost to kill the mob or craft the item.

As to the personal loot pool, I am still gathering data to back up some loot observations and determining if it is bias or if there is something to my madness.

Over the last few days, I've cycled 30,000 ped on Aurlis and other misc. When other hunters were globalling, I was having bad returns. The inverse was also true. I also had a catastrophic run with 0 globals and 53 percent return on a 1100 ped run and during this time.. 3 other hunters were hitting 50x multiplier hits or more in the same dome.

 

[silas]

I have more to add and I will when I'm not on my phone but..

The thread question is misleading. I am told there is a theoretical loot cap at around 2500 or 2600x the cost to kill the mob or craft the item.

.

If thats the case how will u explain 10k argo Young hofs.

But anyway interesteing thread

 

[atomicstorm]

If thats the case how will u explain 10k argo Young hofs.

But anyway interesteing thread

Never said it was accurate. This is just what someone had told me for which I rebutted with what the multiplier would be with the 331K ATH. It could have been that type of multiplier a couple years ago but we would never know if they extended the possibilities. Only ones to really calculate that in a meaningful form would be EL.

 

[shoti]

Yes it is capped. In case of hunting it is:

stamina * 200 +-5% = max loot

in case of mining and crafting it probably works same ,except there is hidden parameter not called stamina in this case ( i suspect claim size in mining and have no idea what in can be in crafting - wild gues is TT cost ).

 

[SirAzzah]

Yes it is capped. In case of hunting it is:

stamina * 200 +-5% = max loot

in case of mining and crafting it probably works same ,except there is hidden parameter not called stamina in this case ( i suspect claim size in mining and have no idea what in can be in crafting - wild gues is TT cost ).

So you believe that stamina affects overall loot? Meaning that avatars pre vu10 starting with 8 or 9 stamina have an advantage over newer avatars? I would hope that's not the case being that I'm a newer avie with 2 points of stamina.

 

[Acro]

So you believe that stamina affects overall loot? Meaning that avatars pre vu10 starting with 8 or 9 stamina have an advantage over newer avatars? I would hope that's not the case being that I'm a newer avie with 2 points of stamina.

You misread his post. He means mob stamina (1/10 of HP). It would have been more clear to say HP*20 ~5% instead.

I think it is HP*23, possible 25. It has nothing to do with the stats of the avatar shooting the mob.
Also take into concideration that it is HP included regen HP (on mobs like ambu and such). While there was some doubt if this was still the matter, I can confirm that regen atleast has a noticable effect still(tested on ambu).

So in this case stamina of mob should not be used; as it is misleading. dealt dmg in HP is a more accurate interpretation in this case. But it is not a static one for regen mobs. On non regen mobs, mob HP will almost perfectly fit the damage you need to do to kill them.

 

[RickEngland]

After rereading some posts; it should seem that entropia is based on a coin system, instead of the lottery type system. See quote below.
Although, I'm naturally paranoid; that would be my middle name (if I could change it, I'll be called acronoid paranoid deity )

Still not convinced; maybe all those years of Marco telling little whtie lies and half truths still lingers

When did Bjorn post that (your insert)?

I tell they are messing with my head...lol.
So there is no avatar tracking and no personal compensation, but it's also not gambling either.
There has to be some sort of tracking even if it's not based on loot. Maybe is ammo used or bombs dropped over time.

I will simply say this, MA need to provide confidence. You can't open Pandora's box, destroy many personal beliefs, and not re-fill those beliefs with an indication of what will enable a player to push on.

Once that massive 331K ped Prot dropped, I thought it might be gambling.

I'm very tempted to depo for MM, I have confidence issues...lol grrrrr.

Rick

 

[SirAzzah]

You misread his post. He means mob stamina (1/10 of HP). It would have been more clear to say HP*20 ~5% instead.

I think it is HP*23, possible 25. It has nothing to do with the stats of the avatar shooting the mob.
Also take into concideration that it is HP included regen HP (on mobs like ambu and such). While there was some doubt if this was still the matter, I can confirm that regen atleast has a noticable effect still(tested on ambu).

So in this case stamina of mob should not be used; as it is misleading. dealt dmg in HP is a more accurate interpretation in this case. But it is not a static one for regen mobs. On non regen mobs, mob HP will almost perfectly fit the damage you need to do to kill them.

I realized he meant mob stamina after submitting message lol
But thanks for reply and I agree with you. I have noticed a higher avg loot return on tests letting mobs regen to over 50% after nearly killing them.

 

[Acro]

Rick, I found it when searching for another statement from MA; just look at the post history of Björn, you'll find it about 3pages down.
I find it hard to beliefe myself; but it seems the only tracking is like in a casino; where the system will give an overall payout and you can be lucky or unlucky.

I will in the end find a way to proof is that statement was truth or lies; in mean time my trust has switched from avatar tracked to "unknown". Alot of ppl claim better return after massive loses, or healing or anything like that, but how many did get a big loss; healed full time during a wof and did not get a compensation loot?

For that I asked this question; and if anyone could shed a light on how to proof/disproof this, apart from MA's statement.

 

[Spawn]

Loot is in the mobs. If you take notice of your surroundings you can pick the nice loot instead of the bad.

 

[Acro]

Loot is in the mobs. If you take notice of your surroundings you can pick the nice loot instead of the bad.

sry to tell you; but to me this sounds like superstition.
Is there any way you can back up this claim, either in forum, or PM (I'll be silent )

Ofcourse there is a possibility that base loot (without multipliers) is in mobs. And I know the story that mobs standing seperately should have better loot than ones spawned in groups. I've been around for long time on EF (now PCF) to know many "folk tales". But which hold truth and which are utter BS is another story to find out.

 

[RickEngland]

Rick, I found it when searching for another statement from MA; just look at the post history of Björn, you'll find it about 3pages down.
I find it hard to beliefe myself; but it seems the only tracking is like in a casino; where the system will give an overall payout and you can be lucky or unlucky.

I will in the end find a way to proof is that statement was truth or lies; in mean time my trust has switched from avatar tracked to "unknown". Alot of ppl claim better return after massive loses, or healing or anything like that, but how many did get a big loss; healed full time during a wof and did not get a compensation loot?

For that I asked this question; and if anyone could shed a light on how to proof/disproof this, apart from MA's statement.

I agree the system does reward in certain instances, why does it take back hofs quick, or take back MU on sale of ESI's.

I often wondered if Star's approach to hunting was the way to go. Don't hunt often but when you do, go all out until the hof cracks.

It's not lies though, it's more a play on words. Just because loot is not measured, is not the same thing as skill gain isn't measured or ammo purchased and used isn't measured. You have to read the wording very carefully. Or maybe MA could be better at definition....lol.

Thing is if it is a pure gamble with timing on a certain mob, it scares me. I can honestly tell you I would've never started EU if I considered it was gambling. I always liked to believe that skills and ped turnover were the driving forces of returns (maybe it is).

Rather than ask if it is gambling, maybe the question should be; where have MA stated it certainly isn't?

Rick

 

[shoti]

So you believe that stamina affects overall loot? Meaning that avatars pre vu10 starting with 8 or 9 stamina have an advantage over newer avatars? I would hope that's not the case being that I'm a newer avie with 2 points of stamina.

Stamina of mob - some boss mobs can loot over 1 M peds ( in that case Marco's words few years back can have some meaning - there was no so huge mobs 2-3 years ago and such loot could be obtained only from crafting )

You misread his post. He means mob stamina (1/10 of HP). It would have been more clear to say HP*20 ~5% instead.

I think it is HP*23, possible 25. It has nothing to do with the stats of the avatar shooting the mob.
Also take into concideration that it is HP included regen HP (on mobs like ambu and such). While there was some doubt if this was still the matter, I can confirm that regen atleast has a noticable effect still(tested on ambu).

So in this case stamina of mob should not be used; as it is misleading. dealt dmg in HP is a more accurate interpretation in this case. But it is not a static one for regen mobs. On non regen mobs, mob HP will almost perfectly fit the damage you need to do to kill them.

Indeed regen must change that in that case we can use [ base HP of mob + amount of HP regened during fight ] in formula.
Another method is taking out regen out of equation. In that case mob must die almost instantly - for example killed by hi DPS team.

 

[MG Mighty]

So there is no avatar tracking and no personal compensation, but it's also not gambling either.
There has to be some sort of tracking even if it's not based on loot.

It's called skills.

Spend lots of PED in an activity that gains you no skills and you will get nothing back (from MA), that's what I think the "No personal loot pool" means.

 

[chronos]

Some seems to claim that in mining and if you go amped, you would have to use xxxx amount of amps, and bomb continously to be able to hit a big one. Not using a few amps now and then. I bet you still can hit a big one that way, but the chance would be lower.

Regarding to hunting, ive also noticed (like another poster has) that sometimes when people around you hunting same mob gets a global or HOF, you just continue to get poor result.
This might be when some (or all) of theese factors below come in and decide if you are the one that should get a global/hof instead of them around you:
* Skills, you are more efficient in hunting them. More kills / minute so you have higher chance.
* Previous losses. aka the acclaimed 80% return. Maybe it was your or the other persons time to get something back.
* Another area with that mob is due to spit out some loot instead of your area.
* That mob has been hunted alot previously by you or the other person, and has something to give back. 80% return from total playerbase if you would call it like that.
* Random chance - or bad / good luck. (Does it exist in a controlled system?, there are no true random generators i bet)

I think we could see the return as a big pot of stew, with a crazy chef (read the players) pouring in ingredients (read money). And sometimes the pot rumbles and throws out something because its just to full
Sometimes its a coal lump, but in rare cases a diamond has formed. You better be there with open arms to grab something, or you wont get it.

 

[Arch]

just wanted to let you know that u have a spelling error in the thread title. u for got the "r" in "crapped"

 

[WoenK]

I would think MA meant by the "personal loot pool" rather that not that specific loot is defined for specific persons.
I would assume that loot is capped towards what you lost to the system (not counting MU, only ammo and decay). Those get high ATHs have also lost at least that sum.

 

[Acro]

Has anyone noticed that during events loot is different. When many hunters gather at one point and cycle their ped there; how has this an impact on someone mining half a planet away?
Is loot worse, or just different? And what does that tell us?

something to ponder at the fireplace on a lazy winters day.

 

[Acro]

a question?

Is basic loot a property of the entity Mob; or is base loot a property of the entity Loot?

 

[Acro]

To remark my previous thread. while HP is part of the mob; "killed HP" is part of Loot; as has seen from experiments with high regen mobs.

Also, if basic loot is not part of mob; then it does not matter what mob you shoot; only where, when and how.
For those that been asking

 

[Spawn]

Also, if basic loot is not part of mob; then it does not matter what mob you shoot; only where, when and how.

Good luck ath-ing on snablesnot young!

 

[Acro]

Good luck ath-ing on snablesnot young!

Only if it has atleast 2.5K; or the regen that makes you shoot that much.

 

[WoenK]

Only if it has atleast 2.5K; or the regen that makes you shoot that much.

I doubt that you can pump a snable that full.
And even if it was possible, I doubt that would bring any results.
My highest loot was 2k on an Atrox young...never got anything above 600 on an Leviathan and I was hunting them quite some time.
I doubt that the system rewards you for spending way too much.


And as for loot beeing different during events...I did not notice anything during Halloween Mayhem and I did not take part in it. Crafting, Hunting, mining was as usual.
And even now, I can see absolutely no difference in crafting, can not talk for hunting because I am only hunting in the instances and it seems slightly higher than normal (but then again I had a few bad runs before it)

 

[forgo]

Loot is in the mobs. If you take notice of your surroundings you can pick the nice loot instead of the bad.

This.

Personal loot pools cannot exist when the mobs, items and mining zones hold the pools instead.

As far as capped loot the formula relates as stated earlier to stamina of the mob. More stamina, = more max loot.

I actually forgot the formula I use offhand but.... every mob you look up on my site will show its maximum loot value. The formula I have so far accomodates every ATH ever including the 331k.

The mulman looter elite can actually hit 457,600 k PED MAX


Mobs cannot build pools unless hunted, Blueprints/items cannot build pools without minerals clicked, minerals cannot build without probes dropping. There is no real other way to do this, you need the money to have been spent before you can loot the money.

 

[Acro]

Forgo, while that seems the most logical; it would take 2 processes to determine the loot instead of one.
So mob would hold a base loot, and another process deals with multipliers.
While this seems viable; it is a security risk and requires additional memory resources.
And spawn didn't mean loot, as a specifical area; those attributes could be given to the process that deals with loot.
From a technical side of things; it would appear more practical that a mob is just a probe; it is a possiblity, an entry to the loot process. the shot HP would be how "amped" the base loot is; to be added with multipliers.

Ofcourse this answers only a trivial question; being that shooting mob x now, or at another time would lead to other outcomes in base loot.

In practise this does not differ much. Loot still escapes ones grip faster than you can accumate it

 

[Acro]

forgo, about the second part of your post; do you believe in a general pool?
And if so, is it area dependant, or bp dependant?

The more I look to the puzzle, the more questions I see. But as with puzzles, once the pieces will fit.