Question: Is mining more than a dice roll ?

[R4tt3xx]

As the question says. Is mining more than a dice roll ?

At the moment, I am very disappointed with the state of mining, actual reliable mining claim predictions are nearly impossible for me at the moment and I am pulling my hair out over it. I have built several models that all work intermittently well, suggesting a random type system. Is there any skill involved in finding deposits ?

 

[TACUTTING]

Its not even a dice roll, you let Ma roll the dice and not letting you see the results .

Very personal loot pools I would say , down to the Pec

 

[R4tt3xx]

I agree with the lack of information on the professions from both the player and Mindark's point of view, but it would be nice to know the rules of the game you are playing in order to get good at it. These rules should be PUBLICLY available.

Its not even a dice roll, you let Ma roll the dice and not letting you see the results .

Very personal loot pools I would say , down to the Pec

 

[Gewitter]

Mining activity is much more than the dice. I can not 100% predict the results, but I know I'll get in one time or another, knowing the system and places, and all my decisions are based on my previous experience. But you never can predict your results for one session or one day. Knowing only help you predict my results in the long term.

 

[whiteknut]

Sure mining can be compared with throw of a dice.
Each dice throw costs you 1 dollar.
BUT it is dice with 10 sides, 9 winning sides and one losing side. Each winning side gives you 1 dollar back, but the tenth side takes it away.

So in long term it should be 10k dollars spent 9k dollars back.

BUT
there are different tables you can throw these dices on.
On some tabless the the winning are paid out in coins that are worth twice the face value.
On some tables the winnings are paid out in old dollar bills that are worth exactly the face value.


So you have to learn the table rules before making any bets. It takes some time to find the tables that tend to pay out with the rare coins.

 

[Vaako]

Mining activity is much more than the dice. I can not 100% predict the results, but I know I'll get in one time or another, knowing the system and places, and all my decisions are based on my previous experience. But you never can predict your results for one session or one day. Knowing only help you predict my results in the long term.

Because long term playing dice is not predictable.

 

[Gewitter]

Because long term playing dice is not predictable.

My knowledge gives me a possibilty to calculate with an accuracy of about 10%, profit from continuous operation in one place, say 3 months (this is a sufficient interval of time), provided that the MU will not change.
The only problem is that the MU changes, and it allows me to search for resources in different places, depending on the demand and prices for them

 

[R4tt3xx]

At the moment I want a higher hitrate%. Going from a near 90% hitrate just after the vanishing of the mining veins in the old PE to this is just a swift kick in the balls..

I would just like to know if there is some logic to it, or is it just BS casino-type randomness.

My knowledge gives me a possibilty to calculate with an accuracy of about 10%, profit from continuous operation in one place, say 3 months (this is a sufficient interval of time), provided that the MU will not change.
The only problem is that the MU changes, and it allows me to search for resources in different places, depending on the demand and prices for them

 

[Gewitter]

At the moment I want a higher hitrate%. Going from a near 90% hitrate just after the vanishing of the mining veins in the old PE to this is just a swift kick in the balls..

I would just like to know if there is some logic to it, or is it just BS casino-type randomness.

During last week I have an average return ~75% (with 12500 PED TT turnover in mining, including amps, probes and decay), any large (e.g. 2000 PED) HoF will cause that return would be 90%.

 

[Harmony.]

As the question says. Is mining more than a dice roll ?

At the moment, I am very disappointed with the state of mining, actual reliable mining claim predictions are nearly impossible for me at the moment and I am pulling my hair out over it. I have built several models that all work intermittently well, suggesting a random type system. Is there any skill involved in finding deposits ?

Wow, THE R4tt3xx is asking how mining works.
The sky must be falling

That being said i stopped with mining, because i couldn't get the hang of it anymore about a year ago.
I feel there are some people that have figured 'it' out and are now making a tt profit, causing the rest of us to have lower returns. But that is just a tinfoil hat theory.

 

[dobrinocb]

Wow, THE R4tt3xx is asking how mining works.
The sky must be falling

That being said i stopped with mining, because i couldn't get the hang of it anymore about a year ago.
I feel there are some people that have figured 'it' out and are now making a tt profit, causing the rest of us to have lower returns. But that is just a tinfoil hat theory.

That tinfoil hat is called dsec seeker L30 and a bit of luck . Most of players has always crying that skills in mining means nothing than using a big finder . Well MINDARK introduce that finders when ? since maybe 2 years and most of big ass skilled miners still didn't figure out it . That noob Nikolas even he that believe is biggest ************* in game hitting big since a year . You can be Linzey(in mining ) now just buy L30

 

[R4tt3xx]

Back in the day 130% tt return.

During last week I have an average return ~75% (with 12500 PED TT turnover in mining, including amps, probes and decay), any large (e.g. 2000 PED) HoF will cause that return would be 90%.

 

[R4tt3xx]

When the second type of veins vanished, my little mining formula evaporated into the ether with it.

Wow, THE R4tt3xx is asking how mining works.
The sky must be falling

That being said i stopped with mining, because i couldn't get the hang of it anymore about a year ago.
I feel there are some people that have figured 'it' out and are now making a tt profit, causing the rest of us to have lower returns. But that is just a tinfoil hat theory.

 

[Gewitter]

Back in the day 130% tt return.

130% TT return is impossible in the long therm.
Yes, it is possible if you depo -> run your gambling sessions -> hit a big claim -> withdraw.
Instead 'Hit a big claim' option may be 'lose all' option. 'Possible' is not 'might happen' or 'will happen'
It is not my way.
L30 is a good finder, but I found other combinations for myself.
For gambling ingame already exists B-series Ziplex, C-series Ziplex. More probes (B50 - 48 probes (ore)) - more losses...or...ATH

 

[Rocket192]

When the mining is bad just keep dropping.. EU is a grind fest now.. It started with hunting and now goes to mining..

I personally use the L30 with lvl5 amps.. And I like to go on large 4-5k runs with a dozen amps. It's a lot of ped, and sometimes I'll go out and mine and hit a 900 ped TT trash hof and still come back with 80% return and only 114% average markup, barely enough to break markup of amp and finder..

Recently it was really bad.. One 1k hof and I was still down 3.5k TT from my 90% theoretical return for this year..Until I hit a 1.7k lyst hof in pvp4 last night (f*ck me right?) luckily I drilled it all up without getting shot at..

My main point is that I am still down from 90% TT return after cycling what has to be near 30k ped.. But I've been lucky enough to average 118% markup so that markup is keeping me at a slight profit.

If you can't maintain markup you will hurt in mining for a long long time unless you get s huge hof to float you for a while.

Despite this.. I finished at a 93.4% return last year. And 91.8% the year before.. I think you can do better than 90% with an eco extractor and low-decay finders.

Tax doesn't seem to make a difference in returns because i mostly mine taxed areas.

 

[atomicstorm]

Wow, THE R4tt3xx is asking how mining works.
The sky must be falling

That being said i stopped with mining, because i couldn't get the hang of it anymore about a year ago.
I feel there are some people that have figured 'it' out and are now making a tt profit, causing the rest of us to have lower returns. But that is just a tinfoil hat theory.

Not really tinfoil hat.. how do you think hunting works now...

 

[R4tt3xx]

Going to be testing a new spiral tonight, figured out how to "mis-align" the "vein" portion of the spiral while keeping everything else the same... Screenie

Sorry for going on a complete tangent, let me explain how I saw mining work way,way,way,way back in the day.

We have a square grid, that consists of x number of points equally spaced from each other. Pick a point, and you extract what ever is located there. The peds that you expended are used to recharge that point and will respawn a certain time afterward.

Later on I found out that the points moved and the array was a circle, not a square, I am suspecting that each time a point now is removed, the rest of the array changes it's parameters in response but keeping the size and distance from point to point the same.

PLEASE NOTE : Mathematically the distance is the same, but differs ingame and results in non straight veins !!!

 

[Gewitter]

We have a square grid, that consists of x number of points equally spaced from each other. Pick a point, and you extract what ever is located there. The peds that you expended are used to recharge that point and will respawn a certain time afterward.

Great. Looks like game 'Sea Battle'. Now calculate how many server resouces need for control of all it.

 

[Vi Bitfury]

Going to be testing a new spiral tonight, figured out how to "mis-align" the "vein" portion of the spiral while keeping everything else the same... Screenie

Sorry for going on a complete tangent, let me explain how I saw mining work way,way,way,way back in the day.

We have a square grid, that consists of x number of points equally spaced from each other. Pick a point, and you extract what ever is located there. The peds that you expended are used to recharge that point and will respawn a certain time afterward.

Later on I found out that the points moved and the array was a circle, not a square, I am suspecting that each time a point now is removed, the rest of the array changes it's parameters in response but keeping the size and distance from point to point the same.

PLEASE NOTE : Mathematically the distance is the same, but differs ingame and results in non straight veins !!!

So, does this mean that (see a few of my mining pictures below) of what is shown could be in relation and/or are possible results of your "spiral" tests/ideas which have evolved over the various VUs in a more shifting curved (may contain straight lines to) pattern of conditional out-lays from many mining results, observations, and distance & timing shift paradigms?

If so, could it be that the math and algorithms are not like "dice" no matter how many sides or views are being looked at, but more of a input-output relative time/distance-based pattern of coordinates on a shifting paradigm map (input your own idea/theory here).

Find it interesting that the distances between each claim is relatively the same distance apart, and I'm able to "better anticipate/predict" going the same distance & direction and finding the next claim in this manner. I also find it interesting that timing is totally out of the equation here as well.

I do notice I'm still able to keep my eyes on this pattern or inline with my 'true-line' (my own way-points assist me on this) in order to keep hitting claims. As long as I stay in accordance to my 'true-line' (way-points), the claims seem to be a tad off in terms of distance and start to curve off in order to try to get me to be 'off course or create more NRFs'...if I do deviate, and actually follow each exact claim's coordinates, this would then stray me out of my "tru-line" (not follow my way-points) which equals to a higher probability of getting NRFs. Had this happen before a lot (straying off-line and getting more NRFs) when I started out mining a few years ago until I realized after experience and analyzing that there is some sort of evolving pattern to the current method that I now use in creating way-points to be better in-line. (planet-side only).

Edit: Not sure if my above example has anything to do with or in relation to the OP's "mis-align" the "vein" portion" that is mentioned.

My way-points are in line as you can observe (personally I do this to keep track of my own personal 'true line-pattern' when I mine this way).

Edit: I only think mining is a "dice roll" (includes some timing) when it comes to all mining that is not on planet-side. When it comes to only planet-side mining, it is a matter of knowledge/experience in mining in being able to observe and/or understand patterns, plotting distances & coordinates in relative to a shifting/constant paradigm map, and fine-tuning your own input-output (results of analyzing ideas) to your own mining behaviors in playing EU. ('battle-ship' anyone, j/k, LOL).


For anybody that is interested in seeing more of my planet-side mining pics from earlier this year, here is the link: https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/album.php?albumid=6990

Didn't mean to reply a novel here, but these are all my own mining experiences and opinions being observed and analyzed, thank you. (I do not claim to know everything and still have tons to learn and grow from - not an expert in mining here)

Regards,
Vi

 

[Rocket192]

Everyone is overthinking this so much...

My strategy (which has faired very well for me over the last 3 years)

Just keep bombing.. Don't overlap bombs.. And pay attention to timing.. If bad hit rate, mine claims up as you go, if good hit rate just keep dropping and mine all the claims up later.

Most importantly, just keep bombing

But I will test the vein theory out.. Could be coincidence.. But if it helps me find more gazz and less lyst then I'll give it a shot.

 

[R4tt3xx]

New spread-sheet is working as well as to be expected.. The problem with it at the moment, is it cannot predict what the economy is going to do... I need to know how many pins are on the board in order to tell you where and what they are ...

 

[Scurvy Sityl]

If you only drop probes in a straight line, your claims are going to be found in a straight line. Think about it. You arent allowing for any finds outside of the straight line.

If you drop probes in a spiral shape, your claims are going to start looking like a spiral shape.

What youll find if you truly carpet bomb an entire are (in both y and x axis) is that suddenly your finds look random.

Static on a tv screen is random, but if I only look at one pixel's height accross the whole tv screen, all of the white dots I see are going to look like they are in a row. The underlying static is still random.

I could bomb only in the shape of Samuel L Jackson's face and after enough drops my claims would he in the shape of his face.

 

[Vi Bitfury]

If you only drop probes in a straight line, your claims are going to be found in a straight line. Think about it. You arent allowing for any finds outside of the straight line.

If you drop probes in a spiral shape, your claims are going to start looking like a spiral shape.

What youll find if you truly carpet bomb an entire are (in both y and x axis) is that suddenly your finds look random.

Static on a tv screen is random, but if I only look at one pixel's height accross the whole tv screen, all of the white dots I see are going to look like they are in a row. The underlying static is still random.

I could bomb only in the shape of Samuel L Jackson's face and after enough drops my claims would he in the shape of his face.

I've done carpet bombing before on planet-side before and yeah, you'll get some random claims (even ones outside the range/distances) and NRFs (find it boring and even more probable chances of not being able to sustain from losses due to NRFs). However, carpet bombing is great for in-door mining IMO. Also, in my own perspective, I'd rather fine-tune my choices of dropping probes in using probability in terms of "predicting analyzed ratios and patterns" (in my common case - line patterns; I've found clusters/curves to) in order to better minimize misses or not succumb to the chances of getting a claim through the 'roll of the random dice' or simply getting more NRFs.

There is more than just simply dropping probes in a straight line, I use my "Bowl" technique when ever I start a planet-side mining run. This allows me to analyze and better anticipate and predict if and how the pattern of the mining run will go. I just don't agree with randomly dropping probes or carpet bombing planet-side since I used to do this a year ago, and I got tired of the endless NRFs and losses. Thus, over the months of experiences in trials and error, started to track and notice patterns in my mining in order to simply sustain in my mining profession. In addition, I don't claim to know the secret formulas or what not or make tons off of mining, but I simply would rather have fun seeking out patterns in being able to sustain by "anticipating/predicting" patterns of where my next claim will be. Furthermore, not all runs will be lines, I just chose to show others the pictures that happen to be lines more often than not as clusters, curves, and etc. are other patterns that are easy to obtain as well.

Maybe it's just me, but at least this is what I'd rather lean on, patterns (a somewhat better structured control - not randomness or "roll of the dice"), when it comes to planet-side mining. Again, each and everyone has the freedom to mine however they want to and this is only my own observations and opinions. Obviously if the mining method or way works, do not change it; its as simple as that...if you find what works for you - I'm happy for you and I don't want you to change that.

 

[Scurvy Sityl]

I've done carpet bombing before on planet-side before and yeah, you'll get some random claims (even ones outside the range/distances) and NRFs (find it boring and even more probable chances of not being able to sustain from losses due to NRFs). However, carpet bombing is great for in-door mining IMO. Also, in my own perspective, I'd rather fine-tune my choices of dropping probes in using probability in terms of "predicting analyzed ratios and patterns" (in my common case - line patterns; I've found clusters/curves to) in order to better minimize misses or not succumb to the chances of getting a claim through the 'roll of the random dice' or simply getting more NRFs.

There is more than just simply dropping probes in a straight line, I use my "Bowl" technique when ever I start a planet-side mining run. This allows me to analyze and better anticipate and predict if and how the pattern of the mining run will go. I just don't agree with randomly dropping probes or carpet bombing planet-side since I used to do this a year ago, and I got tired of the endless NRFs and losses. Thus, over the months of experiences in trials and error, started to track and notice patterns in my mining in order to simply sustain in my mining profession. In addition, I don't claim to know the secret formulas or what not or make tons off of mining, but I simply would rather have fun seeking out patterns in being able to sustain by "anticipating/predicting" patterns of where my next claim will be. Furthermore, not all runs will be lines, I just chose to show others the pictures that happen to be lines more often than not as clusters, curves, and etc. are other patterns that are easy to obtain as well.

Maybe it's just me, but at least this is what I'd rather lean on, patterns (a somewhat better structured control - not randomness or "roll of the dice"), when it comes to planet-side mining. Again, each and everyone has the freedom to mine however they want to and this is only my own observations and opinions. Obviously if the mining method or way works, do not change it; its as simple as that...if you find what works for you - I'm happy for you and I don't want you to change that.

Random finds are going to form clusters that, when looked at afterwards, seem to show good areas and bad areas. However, inorder to show that any method reveals anything more than random finds and misses, youd want to show that the method provides a rate of return greater than random drops. Otherwise, the method has no predictive power or use at all. I have a feeling that should MA ever discover such a method existed, they'd immediately change their code to prevent abuse and losses.

Its easy to look at a random sample and find patterns, just ask Rorschach.

 

[R4tt3xx]

"I have a feeling that should MA ever discover such a method existed, they'd immediately change their code to prevent abuse and losses."

What if code exists that blocks such methods from being found in the first place ? If returns goes above the expected highest values, prevent those methods from working.

Predictive power, I agree 100% with that. The method that I have can do that up to a specific point in time. Would this not appear strange to you if your predictive method works 10 to 15 times in a row, then suddenly shuts down, only coming back 10 to 15 misses later ? This is what I am coming to expect. I even redid the entire mining sheet from scratch, same issue.

Code that shuts down mining gains after a set threshold is met would be the ultimate shield against my little spreadsheet. I have come up with a counter to such code (if it exists) and will be testing tonight.

Random finds are going to form clusters that, when looked at afterwards, seem to show good areas and bad areas. However, inorder to show that any method reveals anything more than random finds and misses, youd want to show that the method provides a rate of return greater than random drops. Otherwise, the method has no predictive power or use at all. I have a feeling that should MA ever discover such a method existed, they'd immediately change their code to prevent abuse and losses.

Its easy to look at a random sample and find patterns, just ask Rorschach.

 

[R4tt3xx]

Here's the biggest issue that I have regarding carpet bombing, I apologize one again for the math. Servers are 8192 by 8192 meters across and mining ranges are not squared numbers, they do not divide in evenly. If there was a pattern carpet bombing at 110m for example will not find it.

Like wise circle mining has a similar flaw, it cannot reach the corners of a square unless it crosses the server boundaries. It also has the issue mentioned above.

With the above issues why the hell do I use circles to mine with stead of straight lines ?

Heres the kicker, once again math ahead, please dont comment if you do not understand the following

I am placing a giant circle with radius of 4096 in the middle of the server. I want to space my probes 110m apart. How many probes do I need to fill the circle ?

(Cell radius / probe distance)^2 (4096/110)^2 PS : This formula is the same when working with a square. 1386.546 probes... I don't like fractions.. My spacing is not optimal in order to mine this server based on its size.

Problem is, I cannot change the server's size nor can I change the range. But there is another parameter that I can change that may just help. (Term 1 / Term 2)^(Term 3) = (Term 4)

Term 3, ie my log can be jury-rigged to fit any term changes in 1, 2 or 3.
Your basic spiral looks like this. Note all the lovely straight "veins"... Mining at 110 will not find these but mining at 128 is not optimal..

Here is the spiral with the different root. Note that there are no more long straight veins.

 

[syntax]

My strategy (which has faired very well for me over the last 3 years)

Just keep bombing.. Don't overlap bombs.. And pay attention to timing.. If bad hit rate, mine claims up as you go, if good hit rate just keep dropping and mine all the claims up later.

Most importantly, just keep bombing
.

This ^^^

I should make the disclaimer that I'm not a spreadsheet miner, just a casual, but this has been my visceral observation. MA's algorithm is cyclic and global, and timing is crucial. When I'm not seeing many mining globals in-game or on entropialife, my hitrate and return is bad. When I'm seeing lots of mining globs/hofs, my returns are also good. I've played at all times of day, all days of the week, and this has been a consistent observation.

 

[Konve]

Wow, THE R4tt3xx is asking how mining works.
The sky must be falling

Don't worry. He hasn't even mentioned a number spi...

Going to be testing a new spiral tonight, figured out how to "mis-align" the "vein" portion of the spiral while keeping everything else the same... Screenie

..ral yet. Oh crap. We're doomed.

130% TT return is impossible in the long therm.
Yes, it is possible if you depo -> run your gambling sessions -> hit a big claim -> withdraw.
Instead 'Hit a big claim' option may be 'lose all' option. 'Possible' is not 'might happen' or 'will happen'
It is not my way.
L30 is a good finder, but I found other combinations for myself.
For gambling ingame already exists B-series Ziplex, C-series Ziplex. More probes (B50 - 48 probes (ore)) - more losses...or...ATH

I think he was talking about how mining worked long, long ago. When the vein pattern was pre-determined and all the miners were bip-skitting their way to the bank.

 

[R4tt3xx]

Don't worry. He hasn't even mentioned a number spi...



..ral yet. Oh crap. We're doomed.



I think he was talking about how mining worked long, long ago. When the vein pattern was pre-determined and all the miners were bip-skitting their way to the bank.

Ah yes the good old days... I still wonder what the actual math looks like, not my pitiful attempt at replicating it using an antiquated piece of math.

The old system was very deterministic, I could tell the value (in ped), it's location (x and y) and type (entmatter or ore). I normally got a Small deposit for every 1 ped risked if the following conditions were met :-

1) I was not messed with - This was an interesting condition as I had to be the only avatar performing actions regarding "betting peds" in a 1km cell. If someone performed actions in the same cell I was operating in, the attempts would fail.
2) Time - The clock ran on a 45 minute cycle, then would shift to the next configuration.

Mindark could very easily keep the "array" the same but it would remain deterministic, so I do not think that is the case now.

I do not think that the current system would have any kind of 100% predictive pattern to it. It seems to give you the illusion of a pattern, then snatch it away at the last moment. Almost like the exact coordinates did not really matter only the chance, multiplier and available funds in the loot pool.

 

[syntax]

I do not think that the current system would have any kind of 100% predictive pattern to it. It seems to give you the illusion of a pattern, then snatch it away at the last moment. Almost like the exact coordinates did not really matter only the chance, multiplier and available funds in the loot pool.

I feel like this is largely the case. The "spawns" are just regions where a particular type of ore/em has a higher chance to be found, but each drop is just a pull of the slot machine handle, like all of the other activities.

I've often thought it would be interesting, though I have not had the PEDs to potentially lose doing it, to do an experiment where you just stand in the same spot and drop 1000 times to see if the returns are any different from actually moving around.