Loot related to CE2?

[Wollongong]

Many times, there are rumours.
Many times, these rumours, when repeated often enough by many enough, these rumours evolve into "common knowledge".

One of these rumours which seems to have become "common knowledge" is the "fact" that the CE2 implementation is a costly business, and therefore, MA is basically *forced* to reduce our loot.

Yes, despite a happy few still getting some, or lots, of loot, overall, loot is really bad.

But hey, MA is using the money to pay for CE, right?

Wrong

A few months ago, there was a lot of ado about the split of MA into the technical platform (MindArk) and the planet (FPC).
In the pile of text which followed on this announcement, it was acknowledged that FPC is a seperate entity. Though it may be fully owned, it still is a legal entity of it's own.
It was also acknowledged that FPC would be paying MA a fee for the use of "the platform".

Now, think: what is CE? Is it the game, or is it the platform?

*waits for people to give the answer*






Correct, CE is technical, therefore, the platform.

Second question: where does the loot come from?




Indeed... it comes from the mobs, the same mobs which are on the planet.


What does this tell us?
The cost of CE is technical, therefore belongs with MA, but the loot comes from the planet, hence belongs with FPC.

Let's draw a little cashflow diagram:




MA <--- fee <---- FPC <---- Playing costs <----- Players
------> Some loot -------->

Know what this means?
Once FPC has paid the contractual fee... they are done with it. No, they need not pay for CE. And yes, they decide on loot.

Therefore, loot and CE are not related.

Perhaps, if the fee would drop, FPC could increase loot, they might also decide to boost their bottom line figure.

Now, hypothetically, it IS possible that MA has set the fee higher for the development, but that would be really bad business. After all, if you buy a car, do you expect the price to remain stable, or do you expect it to go up if some developer goes to work?
Indeed, the price is stable, because all the future costs and revenues are already calculated into it. If MA has anyone in their board with the slightest eduction, they know this, so the fee will not go down once CE is in.
Besides: CE isn't a cost, it is an investment into the platform, and therefore should not be charged from the financial results. Instead, it will be put on the balance and amortized in a number of years. Again...steady.

So in short:
there is no link between loot and CE. Loot is determined by someone other than the ones busy with CE.

IF loot goes up after CE, then it is because FPC is now keeping loot down on purpose, to let it go up after CE. And IF they do that, it is only marketing... too suck in the newcomers, who really still believe they can become rich around here.

 

[Mordrell]

I think yo hit the nail on the head +rep

 

[Trina Xenophage]

Welcome to the club.

You have now posted something officially on a forum making people think MA / FPC looks bad.

I now congratulate you as the newest memeber of the "Never again" club.

Never again will your loot be ok
Never again will your returns be remotely close to even
Never again will your name show up on the global spam as often as it used to
Never again will your claim to bomb ratio be as high nor will your Hit to Shot ratio when hunting.

Again a warm hearty welcome to our club.

 

[ZeroX]

as i remember loot has always been shit, but now when they make ce2, there is more and longer bad loot periods

 

[Witte]

Personally I think the model is fixed, so nobody can change loots. The only way to increase or reduce income is to make creatures harder or easier, as that directly translates in more or less decay.

 

[XingTianNu]

I always found loot to be good

yes more items will be nice i always found that ther is not to many items in loot.

But mayby i find that the loot is good becose i hunt whith maxed weapon, and not whith the look good kind on which ppl hit ability is not 10/10.

So many treads are about loot and stuff but i bet 80% of them are becose ppl hunt whith cool look alike gear and not the gear that go whith ther skills.

As for the CE2 part is lisance you pay once is not rental so MA payd on the first day.

I dont belive MA is taking more money from ppl i belive ppl play whith cool toys to much and cry after.

 

[billairboy]

First of all, it is not clear who is controling the loot, MA or FPC? I think it is MA.

Second, from MA: "Revenue is generated through micro-payments for products and services on a virtual planet(s). This model results in an average income of $1 per hour of activity, per user, which is shared between Mindark and the Planet Partner."

Third, MA owns FPC so FPC profit goes to MA (not sure if MA owns all of FPC or if others like Marco owns some of it).

So, if the money goes to MA or FPC doesn't realy matter to much, they mostly ends up with MA anyway.

 

[Ludvig|MindArk]

MindArk still controls the loot, so ultimately they are the ones that regulate the cashflows, and therefore the rumor of loot being bad to pay for CE2 can be correct, and this thread is totally, utterly pointless.

 

[Brooklyn]

Wollies weekly post...

Welcome to the club.

You have now posted something officially on a forum making people think MA / FPC looks bad.

I now congratulate you as the newest memeber of the "Never again" club.

Never again will your loot be ok
Never again will your returns be remotely close to even
Never again will your name show up on the global spam as often as it used to
Never again will your claim to bomb ratio be as high nor will your Hit to Shot ratio when hunting.

Again a warm hearty welcome to our club.

Never Again
And now there are two

UNDERACHIEVERS FORUM

https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/about-entropiaforum/146535-underachievers-forum.html​

​

 

[Mr-Joey]

Welcome to the club.

I now congratulate you as the newest memeber of the "Never again" club.

Never again will your loot be ok
Never again will your returns be remotely close to even
Never again will your name show up on the global spam as often as it used to
Never again will your claim to bomb ratio be as high nor will your Hit to Shot ratio when hunting.

Again a warm hearty welcome to our club.

Damn, i never posted somethink like this but im in the CLub.
Can you kick me pls... i dont want to be a Member!!!

 

[DoubleWolf]

MA owns FPC so FPC profit goes to MA (not sure if MA owns all of FPC or if others like Marco owns some of it).

So, if the money goes to MA or FPC doesn't realy matter to much, they mostly ends up with MA anyway.

Yeah, I was gonna say I was under the impression that FPC was a SUBSIDIARY of MA, so while they might be paying a "fee" on the books, it's all in how they do their accounting.

But I've been reading threads going back for years talking about how loot keeps getting worse. People were saying loot was bad as early as 2005 from what I've read in some threads.

While I think everyone would agree that the drop rate of decent items have decreased, can we really say that the TT value of loot handed out is any different than what it's ever been when you consider all players? One might have personally noticed a decrease in their own loot while others might feel it's gotten better. However it's only the people that notice the decrease that make their voices heard. The ones noticing an increase likely don't say anything at all for fear of flaming and envy from the rest of the community...

 

[Ace Flyster]

loot has to be fixed as revenues has to be fixed. So unless there is an agreement with the new companies that the amount of loot received compared to decay changes, i will stick with my thoughts below. And this is the main reason (among many others) why i believe tt return has to be fixed!

Otherwise no company in their right mind would EVER join MA and create a new planet!!! If they were not 100% sure of how much return they were going to get on their investment!

And the only way to get 100% sure on their investment, is if they know how much they will get back per avatar per hour. Hence tt return has to be fixed

Therefore i very much doubt there will be any change in loot for CE2 or for any VU updates.

I am sure though we will get the usual posts of, "OMG and update, another week of bad luck". When 100% of time i am sure it is just your avatars bad luch period

One more point for any that defy me, drop 100k bombs, record the tt return, and you will be surprised how fixed it really is

Just my 2 pec, may the hof be with you

Regards

Ace

 

[Wollongong]

I always found loot to be good

yes more items will be nice i always found that ther is not to many items in loot.

But mayby i find that the loot is good becose i hunt whith maxed weapon, and not whith the look good kind on which ppl hit ability is not 10/10.

So many treads are about loot and stuff but i bet 80% of them are becose ppl hunt whith cool look alike gear and not the gear that go whith ther skills.

As for the CE2 part is lisance you pay once is not rental so MA payd on the first day.

I dont belive MA is taking more money from ppl i belive ppl play whith cool toys to much and cry after.

Nope... I play with Opalo these days... before that, I went M3, also maxed. And I notice it as well.

 

[Wollongong]

MindArk still controls the loot, so ultimately they are the ones that regulate the cashflows, and therefore the rumor of loot being bad to pay for CE2 can be correct, and this thread is totally, utterly pointless.

If MA controls the loot.... then what would the incentive be for people to create their own planet? Please explain that to me.

I build a planet, for which I pay dearly, and then MA decides how much money the people playing on my planet get? Bad business model.

 

[Ludvig|MindArk]

If MA controls the loot.... then what would the incentive be for people to create their own planet? Please explain that to me.

I build a planet, for which I pay dearly, and then MA decides how much money the people playing on my planet get? Bad business model.

Well there is no if here. They have stated very clearly that MindArk does indeed control all loot and balancing stuff...

The planet partners know this before they join.

However, the balancing control in particular will probably more be some kind of limits/rules and not an individual look-through every new item, because that would just be plain stupid...

 

[XingTianNu]

Nope... I play with Opalo these days... before that, I went M3, also maxed. And I notice it as well.

Well then you realyse that whith the opalo you can shoot 20k ammo in like hell of long time ( that will give you cheper gaming cost ) as you will say shoot 20k ammo whith MK II.

What i tried to say is that if you play whith maxed weapons in mine case was P5a is that you gaming time vs cost is not that bad ( most of hunting i profited, small yes but profited ) so the gaming to me was free, even if i made 5 peds hunt it was in + not in - the think is that most ppl will get bored by doing that ( as i got bored ) and once you move into gambling ( for me it was ore amps clicking ) you lose hell in short time as i did lose.

Is hard to find ecilibrum but it can be done...

Last think mayby you play Entropia to much ? I played hard core first 3 months ( 4/6h day ) now is like 10h month.

 

[Wollongong]

Well then you realyse that whith the opalo you can shoot 20k ammo in like hell of long time ( that will give you cheper gaming cost ) as you will say shoot 20k ammo whith MK II.

What i tried to say is that if you play whith maxed weapons in mine case was P5a is that you gaming time vs cost is not that bad ( most of hunting i profited, small yes but profited ) so the gaming to me was free, even if i made 5 peds hunt it was in + not in - the think is that most ppl will get bored by doing that ( as i got bored ) and once you move into gambling ( for me it was ore amps clicking ) you lose hell in short time as i did lose.

Is hard to find ecilibrum but it can be done...

Last think mayby you play Entropia to much ? I played hard core first 3 months ( 4/6h day ) now is like 10h month.

Yes, indeed I realize that, which is exactly WHY I went to opalo. But guess what, it is less fun than playing another game which is cheaper. But anyway, that is not exactly what this thread is about.

I am pointing out that the whole concept of "If CE2 is done, then we will automatically see more loot" is a complete misconception.

And no, I don't play it too much. I hardly play at all at the moment, actually.

 

[XingTianNu]

Yes, indeed I realize that, which is exactly WHY I went to opalo. But guess what, it is less fun than playing another game which is cheaper. But anyway, that is not exactly what this thread is about.

I am pointing out that the whole concept of "If CE2 is done, then we will automatically see more loot" is a complete misconception.

And no, I don't play it too much. I hardly play at all at the moment, actually.

Ah ok i get youre post now.

But why will ppl think CE2 will make loot beter is for beter GFX what that got to do any thing whith loot ?

As i understand the loot is linked to the game economy ( more money spend beter loot ratio ) no ?

I mean it only make sance to me... someone got to pay for the loot no ? Can we inspect MinDark to pay there money so we get better loot ? If we want that how long MinDark will go broke and close the game i mean to me is kind logic.

 

[Wollongong]

Ah ok i get youre post now.

But why will ppl think CE2 will make loot beter is for beter GFX what that got to do any thing whith loot ?

As i understand the loot is linked to the game economy ( more money spend beter loot ratio ) no ?

I mean it only make sance to me... someone got to pay for the loot no ? Can we inspect MinDark to pay there money so we get better loot ? If we want that how long MinDark will go broke and close the game i mean to me is kind logic.

Basically, people are saying that loot is bad now, because MA has to pay for the development of CE.

I am pointing out these are non-related. And you make the same error: it is not MA who is running Calypso, it is FPC. And they are owned, yes.... but that means nothing in terms of who's whose boss.

 

[HybOj]

Nicelly written, I think this will put some light to this matter.

 

[aridash]

the conclusion is fair enough, "poor loot" is not to pay for CE2. but the analysis and reasons are all wrong.

there is no fee for the planets, MA take 50% of the decay revenue. FPC is not an independent company but a wholey owned subsidary of MA. Balancing control remains with MA.

If MA controls the loot.... then what would the incentive be for people to create their own planet? Please explain that to me.

lower startup costs, paying only for a samll team of graphic designers rather than a dozen developeres plus infrastructure.

 

[coubo]

Basically, people are saying that loot is bad now, because MA has to pay for the development of CE.

I am pointing out these are non-related. And you make the same error: it is not MA who is running Calypso, it is FPC. And they are owned, yes.... but that means nothing in terms of who's whose boss.

MA and FPC are 2 arms with the same brain.
I suggest you to look at it the other way around. Where is the money used to develop CE2 comes from?
- not from MA shareholders, they are not increasing capital
- not from loans because no back would lend them a penny
- soo... guess what remains? "participants" deposits
They have already eaten a lot of it (see where-our-money) and now they cannot afford to lower the assets/liability ratio much... Thus they are making loot worse to increase their return

Your reasoning about the fee between MA and FPC is theoretically correct, but since the same brain is behind both, it is easy for them to charge FPC extra fees to cover dev costs (with the "rationale" that CE2 will benefit FPC too)

 

[XingTianNu]

Basically, people are saying that loot is bad now, because MA has to pay for the development of CE.

I am pointing out these are non-related. And you make the same error: it is not MA who is running Calypso, it is FPC. And they are owned, yes.... but that means nothing in terms of who's whose boss.

LoL at me i think i lost it but cant seem to find at what point i did.

But i did not understand this :

'I am pointing out these are non-related. And you make the same error: it is not MA who is running Calypso, it is FPC. And they are owned, yes.... but that means nothing in terms of who's whose boss.'

Before FPC ther was only one compagny MinDark right ?

So if that the case is obvious that FPC is MinDark branch made for two reason :

1. To make the devlopement more easy ( focus one only one part of the whole project, the auther part is now the new planets = new compagnys own them ).

2. For Mindark to get Bank lisance mayby they needed to make there business loook more clean and doing so separeted from running the actual activitys on calipso ( you can say that they still runn it becose they own FPC, but on legal mather they dont as the FPC is compagny on his own, for example if there was law problem it will be against FPC and not MinDark.

That how i see it...

PS. I think im not on topic any more

 

[Wollongong]

the conclusion is fair enough, "poor loot" is not to pay for CE2. but the analysis and reasons are all wrong.

there is no fee for the planets, MA take 50% of the decay revenue. FPC is not an independent company but a wholey owned subsidary of MA. Balancing control remains with MA.



lower startup costs, paying only for a samll team of graphic designers rather than a dozen developeres plus infrastructure.

Great, instead of a huge investment with no revenues, a small investment with no revenues... it remains the same... a bad business decision.

 

[Wollongong]

LoL at me i think i lost it but cant seem to find at what point i did.

But i did not understand this :

'I am pointing out these are non-related. And you make the same error: it is not MA who is running Calypso, it is FPC. And they are owned, yes.... but that means nothing in terms of who's whose boss.'

Before FPC ther was only one compagny MinDark right ?

So if that the case is obvious that FPC is MinDark branch made for two reason :

1. To make the devlopement more easy ( focus one only one part of the whole project, the auther part is now the new planets = new compagnys own them ).

2. For Mindark to get Bank lisance mayby they needed to make there business loook more clean and doing so separeted from running the actual activitys on calipso ( you can say that they still runn it becose they own FPC, but on legal mather they dont as the FPC is compagny on his own, for example if there was law problem it will be against FPC and not MinDark.

That how i see it...

PS. I think im not on topic any more

Yes, you are right. One company became two companies. Do they feel close to one another? Probably. But that doesn't change the fact that each entity must now look after their own interests.

If Aridash is right, and MA still controls the loot, and the planet partner gets 50% of revenues..... then a really weird construct is in place. Because then MA could, at any given time, decide to stop giving out loot, thus destroying the business chances of the partners.

Personally, if someone were to offer me a business deal where my income would be dependant on the mood of the guy offering it... I'd let it pass.

 

[Kosh]

FPC = MA

Same people, same shareholders and probably in the same office with a new name.

The change is artificial at this point, it may be important at a later stage when real partners who were not part of MA will launch their planets.

The business entity I work for has at least 5 different limited companies and subsidiaries in different countries (that I can think of right now), there are different reasons for doing this (taxes, exposure to risk of certain assets,...).
Despite this we are one business entity and the interests are the same for all, i.e. maximizing profit.

You are right, in theory MA could make FPC fail and go bankrupt... but why would they do that? it makes no sense.

As for loot, TT return is the same as it always was.

 

[Witte]

Yes, you are right. One company became two companies. Do they feel close to one another? Probably. But that doesn't change the fact that each entity must now look after their own interests.

If Aridash is right, and MA still controls the loot, and the planet partner gets 50% of revenues..... then a really weird construct is in place. Because then MA could, at any given time, decide to stop giving out loot, thus destroying the business chances of the partners.

Personally, if someone were to offer me a business deal where my income would be dependant on the mood of the guy offering it... I'd let it pass.

That why I think the revenue stream is fixed, and not set by MA based on how they feel today. However, loot distribution is a different story. I can imagine that a planet partner can request for a more even distribution, or a more "dynamic" one (meaning higher risk, higher reward). Looking at CND, it seems to me that mining there is more dynamic than on the planet.

 

[Hero]

So Ma need payed salary ma need fee fpc need sallarys with your model it cost a lot more and u know what ma have for a ciontract with CE monthly etc???

i like when ppl try something they dont know any from.

 

[aridash]

That why I think the revenue stream is fixed, and not set by MA based on how they feel today. However, loot distribution is a different story.

exactly. people just dont seem to be able to grasp the difference between MA/FPC/another revenue and distribution of loot amongst the players. who pays for the many daily 5 figure drops?

 

[Sarah Hawkwood]

Personally I think the model is fixed, so nobody can change loots. The only way to increase or reduce income is to make creatures harder or easier, as that directly translates in more or less decay.

Personally I think you are correct with the model being fixed part, but every system needs maintenance and maintenance tools. Therefore, if there is a need for reaction form MA/FPC and correcting something, they can do it. Not saying they do it all the time, it's not why you create automated system for anyway...

I find loot being pretty nice for me recently. Nothing that would smash me on the ground due it's weight, but nothing bad as well, pretty normal, as usual.