Loot related to the cost of the kill - Eco goess out of the window!

[remontoire]

One more thing that I was just thinking. I call it "The Lazy Balance Team Theory"
The balancing team must make all guns and chips and melee weapons and every weapon you can imagine in game (melee decay only the weapon; guns decay the weapon + atachments + enhancers + the ammo; MF decay the chip + the implant + the ammo). And instead of doing this enourmous work, they can just make the loot to balance things. May be not 100%, but still help the uneco players to play almost for the same cost as the eco players.

Umm... Have you actually looked at the specs of melee vs (unamped) guns vs MF chips? These are all balanced. Not just balanced, but balanced in a way that makes higher level weapons / MF attack chips have better eco. This is different to how the old style weapons were balanced where it was mainly the blueprint level that determined the eco of a weapon. The balancing team is not lazy in that sense. If you want another look at an interesting weapons balance, take a look at the Chikara Vamachara Mk II(L).

Attachments ... the only releveant attachment is an amplifier and Mikeemoo is demonstrating that like with armor and plates, weapon + amplifier may not entirely behave like one might assume.

 

[M Rufen Power]

I need to give this a bump as I wanted to know more, very interesting tests. Anything conclusive yet??

 

[Dr.D.C.]

i think MA would be not happy to give good loot to some one that is eco. I think at the end better loot goes to who spend more.........
ofc after we have those freaking dynamic factors..............

 

[johan roadkill]

I switched to karma, Eco says I should loose but I've had better returns then with Eco weapons.

Also unamped (L)makes no sense while karma I can easily detach amp and enhancers to lower cost of the kill(unless dps or regen is too high)

Conclusion even if it's not true I have found no reason to suspect otherwise and it has lowered my cost

 

[Captain Jack]

Very interesting observations PopFuzz. Makes me want to buy an Evil amp for my cb19. If I was still really into EU I'd probably join in the testing, but for now I think I'll freeload off the test results of others

 

[Spawn]

I get higher globals when I use Karma or Maddox as opposed to p5a or korss.

 

[enda]

I think the avatar girtsn, who has high skills and imk2, said he reguarly lost ped month on month, it would seem improbable on a dmg/pec damage dealt loot algo, I think loot related to cost to kill makes more sense.

 

[Jimmy B]

We should do an organised test of this sometime. I expect 100+ people have replied to this thread and threads like it. If we made a detailed structure for a test everyone could follow, and everyone took part, we could probably pretty quickly get enough data for falkao to work his stats magic and get a conclusive answer to this one.

I do think there's already some good signs that it's not as simple as just same loot regardless of weapon and setup. I'm not convinced it's as simple as proportional to cost to kill either though.

Btw, if anyone can find the thread the first post attempts to link to, post it here and I'll correct the link.

 

[Tekkie]

I suspect the OP is close to the truth going by my own results over the last few years. Thing is, eco is a very dangerous thing to state when you only know 1 side of the equation. One thing is for sure though, some people still believe some totally wrong theories... ie all decay (repair costs) goes to ma and is spent/lost by the player. Now, if this isn't true (which it isn't in my own opinion) and indeed some of cost is returned to the player then all the "eco-ness" of everything has to be thought through again.

 

[Seventy Was]

Btw, if anyone can find the thread the first post attempts to link to, post it here and I'll correct the link.

Did you check the link in the Sig?, It goes to the Hunting Blog.

 

[johan roadkill]

Also i belive markup determines loot aswell for example when you loot an ESI you can experience a dropp in loot

So if loot is fixed at a Surtin return % at a surtin time then all MU is accounted into that aswell

 

[thundarfoot]

Hunting with a Punisher mk II, tier 2 with accuracy enhancers, top scope, top amp. killing foul. Seem to get bigger more frequent globals than when hunting same mobs using opallo or cb5 and a few other more eco weapons were tried too. Looted the punisher from a foul and just started using it as a goof, then realized it was lucky and started upgrading it..Does miss a lot (wonder why? ) Hopefully the accuracy enhancers help that some,.

I wish there was a tool where you could input your skills, equipment, and mob you were killing, and get a view of how much damage they will do to you, and how much you can do to them etc to get an idea of what setup was best..but anyway the punisher has been lucky but expensive to use.

 

[krijman]

eco i is just you can longer do whit your peds XD

 

[ermik]

just make sure you hit your target as much as possible ( miss as little as possible )

and pay as little markup as possible to other players in the process of doing the first.

that in combination with getting hit as little as possible is really all you need to think of.

cheers

ermik

 

[johan roadkill]

just make sure you hit your target as much as possible ( miss as little as possible )

and pay as little markup as possible to other players in the process of doing the first.

that in combination with getting hit as little as possible is really all you need to think of.

cheers

ermik

well Miss is a registred hit that dealt no dmg.. so if we asume the mann mph vs dasp experiment was somewhat right then technicly miss could be accounted for in the kill cost and give a loot return that goes accordingly

but since the lootreturn is never set to 100% then it would be a bigger loss then an acctual hit eitherway

 

[ermik]

well Miss is a registred hit that dealt no dmg.. so if we asume the mann mph vs dasp experiment was somewhat right then technicly miss could be accounted for in the kill cost and give a loot return that goes accordingly

but since the lootreturn is never set to 100% then it would be a bigger loss then an acctual hit eitherway

why shouldnt lootreturn be set to 100% ?

and while we are at that , 100% of what?

tt spent is returned 100% over time - registered misses.

 

[XeroX2]

why shouldnt lootreturn be set to 100% ?

and while we are at that , 100% of what?

tt spent is returned 100% over time - registered misses.

he he he that is an interesting theory.

 

[johan roadkill]

why shouldnt lootreturn be set to 100% ?

and while we are at that , 100% of what?

tt spent is returned 100% over time - registered misses.

no casino is ever set at 100% return no matter how much "in the long run" you tell yourself

100% of what is an intersesting perspective though since there are so many thoughts and ideas of what should be taken into account and what not to.

myself i count 100% as the cost of a hunt or many hunts in a row which recently gives me 35-75% return

with avrage of 40% when it's low and 65% when it's high.. any number that exceeds my avrage is either a more rare item with a good markup or a hof/global that is a higher value then what i normaly get. i never hof so i rarely do

all about luck and perspective though

also it is only in recent times that globals and hofs seem to determin the return rather then good overall loot

 

[Az Bloodz]

just make sure you hit your target as much as possible ( miss as little as possible )

and pay as little markup as possible to other players in the process of doing the first.

that in combination with getting hit as little as possible is really all you need to think of.

cheers

ermik

Make sure not to hunt something dropping TT crap all the time is even more important.

 

[Uvas]

Make sure not to hunt something dropping TT crap all the time is even more important.

So what doesn't drop tt crap all the time anymore?

 

[Az Bloodz]

So what doesn't drop tt crap all the time anymore?

That's a no brainer...Drones, Scips, Sumimas and I heard about a low lvl zombie on ROCKtropia dropping fair amounts of Pyrite but couldn't test it yet.

 

[ermik]

Make sure not to hunt something dropping TT crap all the time is even more important.

well , its possible to maintain a decent return with tt food mobs in the long run , since they sometimes drop esi and such.

but i understand what youre saying , but problem is most ppl dont adapt.

For example , Apis + dante could be a good idea on a mob that reguarly drops hl14, but the same combo is suicide on atrox for example.

I mostly hunt mobs that people would consider tt food mobs , and im sustaining just fine , but then again i always try not to pay MU , or hunt above my level , actually im even hunting below my level.

If i cant kill it in shogun , im probably trying to have too much fun , and fun is entertainment , and that is charged with a fee in this game.

cheers

ermik

 

[ermik]

no casino is ever set at 100% return no matter how much "in the long run" you tell yourself

100% of what is an intersesting perspective though since there are so many thoughts and ideas of what should be taken into account and what not to.

myself i count 100% as the cost of a hunt or many hunts in a row which recently gives me 35-75% return

with avrage of 40% when it's low and 65% when it's high.. any number that exceeds my avrage is either a more rare item with a good markup or a hof/global that is a higher value then what i normaly get. i never hof so i rarely do

all about luck and perspective though

also it is only in recent times that globals and hofs seem to determin the return rather then good overall loot

Well first this is not a casino. But there are ways to get the system to behave like one , but then again its only a matter of bankroll until the most gambling type of playing , still evens out at the expected long term return.

What people fail to do in this place is to look at whats important, since we cant affect loot we shouldnt even care about that, still thats whats most people tend to focus on.

The only thing we can affect is what we put in , we can make the system act prematurely to our benefit if we choose time and place carefully , but in the end result will be the same.

cheers

ermik

 

[minim]

well , its possible to maintain a decent return with tt food mobs in the long run , since they sometimes drop esi and such.

but i understand what youre saying , but problem is most ppl dont adapt.

For example , Apis + dante could be a good idea on a mob that reguarly drops hl14, but the same combo is suicide on atrox for example.

I mostly hunt mobs that people would consider tt food mobs , and im sustaining just fine , but then again i always try not to pay MU , or hunt above my level , actually im even hunting below my level.

If i cant kill it in shogun , im probably trying to have too much fun , and fun is entertainment , and that is charged with a fee in this game.

cheers

ermik

I quote all the other ppls saying; "What he said"

 

[jdegre]

I mostly hunt mobs that people would consider tt food mobs , and im sustaining just fine , but then again i always try not to pay MU , or hunt above my level , actually im even hunting below my level.

not saying if you're right or wrong, but just to check if i get what you're saying.... you talk all the time about "not paying MU to other players", and i really don't get it. let me explain with the following example:

- you go and kill 1k mobs, and it costs you 3k peds, all in TT
- i go and kill the very same 1k mobs, and it costs me, say, 2.9k peds (2.7K in TT, and 200 peds in markup paid to other players)

are you saying that first option is better (since you're not paying anything to others) ?

 

[ermik]

not saying if you're right or wrong, but just to check if i get what you're saying.... you talk all the time about "not paying MU to other players", and i really don't get it. let me explain with the following example:

- you go and kill 1k mobs, and it costs you 3k peds, all in TT
- i go and kill the very same 1k mobs, and it costs me, say, 2.9k peds (2.7K in TT, and 200 peds in markup paid to other players)

are you saying that first option is better (since you're not paying anything to others) ?

yes thats exactly what im saying.

System deals with tt values, all mu spent is gone to another player.

Only time its good to pay MU , is if you make sure to loot items with more MU than you payed in the process of creating the loot. But thats always a gamble, id rather hunt stuff that i can kill with low or no MU weapons.

cheers

ermik

 

[Leona]

- you go and kill 1k mobs, and it costs you 3k peds, all in TT
- i go and kill the very same 1k mobs, and it costs me, say, 2.9k peds (2.7K in TT, and 200 peds in markup paid to other players)

are you saying that first option is better (since you're not paying anything to others) ?

Assuming both setups have the same DPP after MU but first setup has lesser DPS and assuming you kill reheal mobs and also assuming we don't consider defense costs here then the first one would indeed be better.

But i know you know that, just pointing out your would need to ask the same question for non reheal mobs dedicated to make the point i think you want to make.

 

[jdegre]

yes thats exactly what im saying.

System deals with tt values, all mu spent is gone to another player.

Assuming both setups have the same DPP after MU but first setup has lesser DPS and assuming you kill reheal mobs and also assuming we don't consider defense costs here then the first one would indeed be better.

But i know you know that, just pointing out your would need to ask the same question for non reheal mobs dedicated to make the point i think you want to make.

well, what i wanted is to confirm the claim that "system deals with TT values", even when you are using a highly un-maxed weapon.

in my example, the first setup costs 3k at TT, and in the second it costs 2.7k in TT. those 300 peds difference may be due to having a very low minimum dmg and having much higher frequent misses with the first setup, than with a maxed weapon (2nd setup).

therefore, if you guys claim that the first setup is better, it has to be because the loot return is strictly bound to TT expenses, regardless of how uneco or how unskilled you are. which is the claim of the OP, if i got it right. and which i have a hard time to believe, tbh

 

[johan roadkill]

well, what i wanted is to confirm the claim that "system deals with TT values", even when you are using a highly un-maxed weapon.

in my example, the first setup costs 3k at TT, and in the second it costs 2.7k in TT. those 300 peds difference may be due to having a very low minimum dmg and having much higher frequent misses with the first setup, than with a maxed weapon (2nd setup).

therefore, if you guys claim that the first setup is better, it has to be because the loot return is strictly bound to TT expenses, regardless of how uneco or how unskilled you are. which is the claim of the OP, if i got it right. and which i have a hard time to believe, tbh

though even with a low minimum and a high missrate IMO there is a bigger chance the cost of MU is even greater
unless the MU is very low

but apis for example you burn those fast and no way you'll miss enought to cover the MU on an apis using a non sib weapon

 

[Kattfres]

well, what i wanted is to confirm the claim that "system deals with TT values", even when you are using a highly un-maxed weapon.

in my example, the first setup costs 3k at TT, and in the second it costs 2.7k in TT. those 300 peds difference may be due to having a very low minimum dmg and having much higher frequent misses with the first setup, than with a maxed weapon (2nd setup).

therefore, if you guys claim that the first setup is better, it has to be because the loot return is strictly bound to TT expenses, regardless of how uneco or how unskilled you are. which is the claim of the OP, if i got it right. and which i have a hard time to believe, tbh

I think ermik does in fact think that skills matter since he said "tt spent is returned 100% over time [minus] registered misses."

My apologies if I misunderstood.