MA Damage the Value of Shopkeepers?

[P-J]

Just in case you aren't aware MA have decided to damage the value of shopkeepers... in a kind and generous Christmas gesture to the community (think of two fingers, one finger ...etc). Perhaps this was a case of hiding bad news...just two days before Christmas and just after the VU...

Two items of interest here:

1. For most shopkeepers trading has been very, very tight. A handful are making a profit and those that are hanging in there are using shopkeepers to do so. Many of the people on the forum know me and know that I a. have a lot of shop owners as friends and b. have run shops (and still do so) in game for a long while. So believe me having a shopkeeper is not a nice to have its a necessary item for anyone with a shop.

2. Shopkeepers don't drop that often and are valued and go for between 2500 and 4000 ped. These are not cheap items.

Oh and the reason for this...so that the owner of the new shopping malls won't be upset by the competition.

Now I am 'slightly upset' because I estimate that I will lose a few thousand peds...which I can ill afford atm.

I guess this should, however, worry anyone with an item in game of medium to high value...today Shopkeepers... tomorrow ..who knows what ? We all have items in game we prize.. how will you feel when MA decide to nerf that so significantly that it becomes almost worthless?

The vote ..should MA radically alter the stats on an well established item in game - without compensation?

The text from MA:


Due to the inclusion of the new Shopping Malls, it was necessary to adjust the Shopkeepers system. Shop owners could place items for sale through Shopkeepers and thereby evade paying the 2.5% sales tax to the landowner.

So, the following revisions will be made to all Shopkeepers in the near future.

The fee for making an item available through a Shopkeeper by setting its price will be abolished.

Deterioration of Shopkeepers when items are sold will be reduced considerably.

A 2.5% regressive markup tax will be introduced for all sales made through all Shopkeepers in the Entropia Universe. This tax is paid to the landowner. The existing fixed tax of 2.5% paid by shop owners to landowners will also be made regressive.

Just like the auction, the regressive tax on the markup ensures that as the markup value increases, the percentage tax decreases. This ensures that the total tax will never exceed 50 PED.

 

[Konve]

Seing as MA can do whatever they want to - we have little choise.

But, when they do feel like making drastic changes they could at least give some compensation to those in direct effect of the change.

 

[RidingDirty]

Whats the big deal?

If you sell something for TT+1000 PEDs from a shopkeeper, youll have to pay 25 PEDs tax...

This is not a drastic change imo, otherwise the mall system would have been heavily abused, and the mall value would have gone down to what the shops are sold for.

In case you sell stuff for TT+1, the tax would be 2,5 pecs...

So let me know how you will loose thousands of peds... The only way would bee selling stuff for a total of TT+100 000

Correct me if I missunderstood MAs statement

 

[andyzammy]

sorry, im a lil behind with shopkeeper matters... what if ur shopkeeper isnt on any land? does that mean u dont pay any tax at all? or am i misunderstanding and the 2.5% tax goes to MA?

 

[Konve]

If you sell something for TT+1000 PEDs from a shopkeeper, youll have to pay 25 PEDs tax...

Imo changing the decay from, what, 20pec(?) to 25ped is a drastic change (12500%..)

Plus, people will probably loose "thousands" as the shopkeepers loose marketvalue. They were about 3k before I think, now the question is if they are still as valuable.

sorry, im a lil behind with shopkeeper matters... what if ur shopkeeper isnt on any land? does that mean u dont pay any tax at all? or am i misunderstanding and the 2.5% tax goes to MA?

I think the tax will still be drawn but cycled back into the pool just like regular auction fees.

 

[NetStalker]

sorry, im a lil behind with shopkeeper matters... what if ur shopkeeper isnt on any land? does that mean u dont pay any tax at all? or am i misunderstanding and the 2.5% tax goes to MA?

Yep...same question i have...

 

[RidingDirty]

Imo changing the decay from, what, 20pec(?) to 25ped is a drastic change (12500%..)

Hmm? Did they really change the decay to 25 PEDs?

 

[Matrix]

sorry, im a lil behind with shopkeeper matters... what if ur shopkeeper isnt on any land? does that mean u dont pay any tax at all? or am i misunderstanding and the 2.5% tax goes to MA?

tax goes to MA.

 

[Mathayus]

Hmm? Did they really change the decay to 25 PEDs?

they didn't change the decay to 25 ped,it's just a form of expression..From what i understand,MA will decrease SK decay,but will set a tax for each item sold trough SK. And all this will get shops to lose value,as well the SK..

 

[Witte]

Allot of people saw this comming, the shopkeerers seemed unbalanced. IMO this is part of the risk you take when investing in EU.

This counts btw for many nerfs we have seen. Axe, Whip, Amp. It were all issues that were discussed before and by many people seen as unbalanced. With that information you knowingly take a risk when investing. I think its part of the game to decide the risk is worth it. And I also think this has led allot of people from making big investment in the firts place.

 

[RidingDirty]

they didn't change the decay to 25 ped,it's just a form of expression..From what i understand,MA will decrease SK decay,but will set a tax for each item sold trough SK. And all this will get shops to lose value,as well the SK..

So, their are nagging about paying 2,5% tax on the markup? Jeez...

 

[Konve]

So, their are nagging about paying 2,5% tax on the markup? Jeez...

You do realize 2,5% is a hell of a lot of money, right?

There's the little swedish saying, and I bet there are simial ones in other languages:

Många bäckar små. - And imo that's all the need saying.

Många = Many
Bäckar = brook/rivulet(used online translater, never don't blame me if they're wrong) (plural)
Små = Small

I guess most people got the point.


Edit: Thought I'd point out I'm not fully taking sides here, but trying to give some perspective (wow, second time I said that in a day or so).

 

[Mathayus]

So, their are nagging about paying 2,5% tax on the markup? Jeez...

it's not the main question of the tax..look at this.
Used to be able to buy a shopkeeper to around 3k it seems,u placed it in your shop and sold all items trough there,u only payed the decay of the shopkeeper for each item sold,that i don't think it was too much,3 or 4 pec? any1 can correct this value?
so,from now on,u will have to pay that tax for each item sold that will be "a lot" more than the decay of the SK and with this, SK will lose theyr worth,because ppl won't be wanting them because it was so wanted cause it was the way to escape the taxes,that's why the 3k worth,but if now they have to pay tax, that worth will come down...
REsult is that ppl payed a lot for SK and shops and now all that will decrease a lot in worth,it's not just the tax problem.

 

[Spud Striker]

Well, I wouldn't be surprised to see the market for shopkeepers drop with all the shops being made.

 

[EyeContact]

I understand your frustration, however, MA has frequently changed the way things work to balance the system. A few examples have already been given and the skill nerf this VU is another example.
When it personally affects you it's a real pain, but MA wouldn't do it if it wasn't neccesary. Who in the world would buy a mall when shops can evade the tax by using a shopkeeper, that doesn't make sense.

Shopkeepers might come down in price a bit, but still remain valuable items, they allow you to stock more items and they can also be used in places where you normally can't sell items (sheds, apartments, etc.).

Ps. the outcome of this poll will mean nothing with this line of questoning.

 

[andyzammy]

i think people are getting confused, and the question wasnt answered completely so i will try to put it better:
shopkeepers on LA's: do 2.5% of the sale go to the LA owner? or MA
shopkeerpers not on any owned land: do 2.5% tax go to MA seeing as though there arent any LA owners it can go to? or don't you get charged if they're not on owned land?

not bothered where the money goes (loot pool or MA's pockets), nobody knows that for certain - i only want to know if it gets removed from you in the 1st place.

i also take it that decay will stay the same, but u just lose this %ge of the sale... (people are getting confused and thinking that the keeper decays as art of the 2.5%ge tax fee).

 

[RidingDirty]

Well, IMHO, thats how it should be.

2,5% taxes aint much. Man, you folks pay up to 5% when you hunt!

And also, maybee Im wrong, but isnt the main thing with shopkeepers that they are available 24/7?

Konve>> Många bäckar små blir en stor å...

Also, by selling something on auction, youll have to pay 5%.

Also, maybee I should quit replying before people goes agro on me....

 

[Mathayus]

Deterioration of Shopkeepers when items are sold will be reduced considerably.

Doesn't this means that SK decay will decrease?

 

[Dunn]

If they wanna fix unbalanced items. they should start with the mod faps

MA should not change stats of any item they have allready implemented.
I'm really getting tired of MA making existing system worse than they allready are just so they can make another system look better in comparison.

 

[Etopia]

Thanks again MA to take your word back....
I dont see why change shoopkeeper since they are not bugged item.
"He dont change item to not umbalance the market price ... bla blablabla"
They work exactly like they was made for back in time.
Its not bugged...

Why dont you change stat on mod fap or impk2 ?
Why dont you turn shadow and supremacy in L armor ?
Why the well , i am always in those that get fuked ?

All that to give som tax to a suposed land owner because he wont make enought if i use shopkeeper...

But , for that , i should open in those mall , and i dont think i will.Those mall are not really nice , they are not usable for customer , they are not usable for shop owner , and price are way to hight.

All that to show a land owner that make money in game ?
Why dont you show those rare crafter that manage ro survive in the game.
Why dont show player who make money from hard job and not only because they bouth a piece of land...

Those land work a lot like ponzi scam , MA get a big deposit in the end of the year and thats all player that have to pay the owner back....

Making all player pay to make one player rich aint good....
And you whant i tell good things about you to people that join?
Yeah sure i will....


Ho well , i dont carre....
MA know best ... Its their business not mine , right ?
I will adapt MA , I will adapt ... Or i will quit...

 

[Crag]

there making sure the poeple who are dropping (right now, the bid will go up in the next 7 days) 22 THOUSAND USD in a mall, get there due. i'm all for it.

just so you know: my wife only makes 27 thousand USD a YEAR so that mall is allready most of her paycheck (prolly the whole yearly paycheck after tax's)

just to put things in perspective.

 

[Wormie]

Why the well , i am always in those that get fuked ?

Because u put your nose into too many things in EU

This change wouldn't budge even 10% of playerbase, and what compensations
hunters did get when MA nerfed lootsystem, axes, amps etc.? Nada. MA will not
(and should not) compensate, but they should plan things better so they didn't
have to nerf systems down. Poor planning from MA.

So adapt or leave applies here too, I have not decided yet....

 

[Crag]

loot system nerf? is that why i cant even come close to even anymore?

 

[Xen]

Thanks again MA to take your word back....
I dont see why change shoopkeeper since they are not bugged item.
"He dont change item to not umbalance the market price ... bla blablabla"
They work exactly like they was made for back in time.
Its not bugged...

Why dont you change stat on mod fap or impk2 ?
Why dont you turn shadow and supremacy in L armor ?
Why the well , i am always in those that get fuked ?

All that to give som tax to a suposed land owner because he wont make enought if i use shopkeeper...

But , for that , i should open in those mall , and i dont think i will.Those mall are not really nice , they are not usable for customer , they are not usable for shop owner , and price are way to hight.

All that to show a land owner that make money in game ?
Why dont you show those rare crafter that manage ro survive in the game.
Why dont show player who make money from hard job and not only because they bouth a piece of land...

Those land work a lot like ponzi scam , MA get a big deposit in the end of the year and thats all player that have to pay the owner back....

Making all player pay to make one player rich aint good....
And you whant i tell good things about you to people that join?
Yeah sure i will....


Ho well , i dont carre....
MA know best ... Its their business not mine , right ?
I will adapt MA , I will adapt ... Or i will quit...

Etopia, you had to know that MA were not going to continue letting everyone avoid taxes by using shopkeepers...

Anyway, I think they will/should drop in value - because many are in use mainly to avoid taxes - but not a horrendous amount. People will still want them to increase space in shops, sell stuff in apartments, for LA sheds...

 

[711]

All that to give som tax to a suposed land owner because he wont make enought if i use shopkeeper...

But , for that , i should open in those mall , and i dont think i will.Those mall are not really nice , they are not usable for customer , they are not usable for shop owner , and price are way to hight.

The price of the mall auctions began at 1 PED. The participants set the price, not MA. Similarly, the price of the shops in the mall will be dictated by the participants (mall owners and shopowners).

The malls are very "usable" in my opinion. They have a teleporter, are in good locations, are beautiful inside, and the owners can add an elevator to make navigating the different levels easier. The shops in the malls are nice as well, with display areas in the walkways for attracting customers, window displays and nice space to show items inside each shop. Combined with the new custom signs, I think shop commerce will increase dramatically once the new malls are auctioned and become inhabited. Nearly every other crafter I have talked to is very excited about the malls, and the increased commerce they will likely bring. One of the biggest problems for many crafters is being able to sell the items they craft, which allows them to turn over their peds and craft more, skill more, and sell more.

All that to show a land owner that make money in game ?
Why dont you show those rare crafter that manage ro survive in the game.
Why dont show player who make money from hard job and not only because they bouth a piece of land...

Those land work a lot like ponzi scam , MA get a big deposit in the end of the year and thats all player that have to pay the owner back....

Making all player pay to make one player rich aint good....
And you whant i tell good things about you to people that join?
Yeah sure i will....

So many of your posts show that you still view this as simply a "game." The beauty of EU is that it can be what you want it to be. If you want to approach EU like a typical MMORPG and simply hunt and "play" you can do that, and have a great time. Then when you decide to leave, there is a decent chance that your avatar is worth more than you deposited. Show me a "typical" MMORPG where that is possible before PE?

Items like these malls show the other aspect of EU which allows it to also be much more than a game for those with entrepreneurial aspirations. It offers opportunities for people to realistically create a viable business in a virtual universe. This has NEVER been possible before EU, and only recently in that "other universe".

It takes money to make money, so the saying goes. In real life and in a virtual universe; why should you begrudge MA making new big-ticket items like CND, TI, land areas, the new malls etc.? Look at all the awesome things Deathifier and Neverdie have done for EU while promoting their possessions. This has turned EU into a living, breathing universe, rather than just another shoot-em-up MMO. These malls are the next step in that direction. Hunting has gotten all the attention in the past, it's very refreshing to see a release of these malls, which will provide much more realism and activity in the EU economy, and will be a great thing for crafters and tailors especially. I think in time you will be quite happy that these malls exist, since you will be able to sell way more clothes than in the past.

In my opinion, the things MA has added to EU and the changes they have instituted in the last 2 months with regard to the engine, graphics, game balance, and interdependency of the economy are very smart moves for the long-term livelihood of EU. Not to mention MA's much improved communication with the community here on EF and on the official EU website. The community has been demanding this from MA for a long time now, and we should embrace it and give them even more feedback and ideas.

As for the shopkeepers, think what would happen if MA didn't make this change. Every shopowner in the new malls would be scrambling to buy every shopkeeper they could find to avoid paying the 2.5% tax to the mall owner. The price of shopkeepers would SKYROCKET. And why should a shopowner be allowed to take advantage of the mallowner's investment by using a loophole to avoid paying the tax? It's unrealistic, and simply not good for the overall EU economy. We should be glad MA is instituting this change before the auctions end and the loophole gets abused. Cheers to MA for thinking ahead on this one.

 

[Darkaner]

The problem is that the only reason to own a shop is because it's fun. You still sell your items quicker and for more peds at the auction.

This is why I don't see the point of these malls or taxed shopkeepers. Why the hell would I want to pay 140 peds a month for a shop + have my shopkeeper taxed like the auction?

But I guess MA will realize this after a few months and give us another auction nerf.

 

[Kombinator]

The shopkeepers, as well as shops are a business opportunity inside EU. As 711 points out, some people play to play, some think of the game as an investment made in skills/items/etc and a return they can make on it.

This game gives a unique opportunity to accumulate wealth over time, for people that play this for years and are focused and coscious of what they do this can become a very interesting alternative investment.

There is no reason virtual reality cannot be similar to IRL in that money can and really should be made here. You can choose a path either as high risk hunting/mining or a more steady trader like role or a crafter with a shop (what would be called vertical integration in a business setting production to retail sale).

As factories come, those who are enterprising will purchase them and run them at a profit over time.

As taming is developed those who have made serious investments into ehat is now a dead and useless profession (like deep value investing in stocks) will realize this value and then some as uber pets with wide abilities will be sought after.

It is a question of perspective, placing big bets and having large an iron balls to stick it out

 

[Kerham]

offtopic: mister 711, please hold yourself from explaining how beautiful is the game to players who were ingame before you even smelled the PE website.

And FYI the biggest problem of crafters is not WHERE to sell, but WHAT to sell.

Thirdly, if EU is breathtakening, then you have a ventilation problem.

ontopic: i actually don't consider this tax modification a big deal. Yes, sk owners will pay more.. But it still less than on auction.. And 2.5% from markup is not such a big deal, it can be easily translated into selling price, some 1000 markup to become 1025, so problem solved

And yes I agree with previously stated opinion that if a situation looks to good, expect it to be rebalanced.

 

[Witte]

The price of the mall auctions began at 1 PED. The participants set the price, not MA. Similarly, the price of the shops in the mall will be dictated by the participants (mall owners and shopowners).

The upkeep is already decided by MA and it is pretty high. It kinda shows what MA thinks the shops will be worth.

As for the shopkeepers, think what would happen if MA didn't make this change. Every shopowner in the new malls would be scrambling to buy every shopkeeper they could find to avoid paying the 2.5% tax to the mall owner. The price of shopkeepers would SKYROCKET. And why should a shopowner be allowed to take advantage of the mallowner's investment by using a loophole to avoid paying the tax? It's unrealistic, and simply not good for the overall EU economy. We should be glad MA is instituting this change before the auctions end and the loophole gets abused. Cheers to MA for thinking ahead on this one.

This argument is just halve valid. They could instead just make it impossible to place shopkeepers in the mall, or make the tax just for the malls. The other part of the reason is to decrease the competition from the current shops.

 

[Konve]

Well, IMHO, thats how it should be.

2,5% taxes aint much. Man, you folks pay up to 5% when you hunt!

And also, maybee Im wrong, but isnt the main thing with shopkeepers that they are available 24/7?

Konve>> Många bäckar små blir en stor å...

Also, by selling something on auction, youll have to pay 5%.

Also, maybee I should quit replying before people goes agro on me....

Well it all comes down to this: Having a shopkeepers is like using the auction at half the price... with 1/100 as many customers... and a hefty monthly fee unless you own the mall/land yourself...

To pay for the high markup of say 70ped you'd have to sell wares at a profitable markup (the real markup must be higher then this unless you can get stuff for less then TT) of >2800 PED each month. I'd be very happy to hear if anyone has ever sold for that much three months in a row.

Doesn't this means that SK decay will decrease?

Yes, I would say so.