MA Damage the Value of Shopkeepers?

[Trabin]

After reading this, my first response was wtf, screwed again, but then sat as re-read it again and thought about it. For me, I use my SK to sell M2A's with just a 5 ped markup on each. 2.5% of that markup is 12.5 pecs, noticably less then the current decay of 38.5 pec per sale, so as long as the new decay is less then 26 pec per sale, I'm actually better off.

In addition, there are a few hut owners who use the SK's to sell ammo at TT, they will be better off with this change. (ok, they likely own the land the hut is on so saving a few pec probably isn't high on their priority list).

Ultimately the only people who are screwed by this change are those who sell items in the shopkeepers with a 15 ped or more markup (figure may well be lower then this, depending on what the decay figure will be).

The biggest issue for me is whether SK's will drop in price, I guess they will, but certainly not as much as my shop probably has, so I'm not going to let it bother me, I wasn't planning on selling the SK any time soon, and still won't, I'll just adapt, pump in some more ped and carry on....

Trabin.

 

[demoniac]

I think in time you will be quite happy that these malls exist, since you will be able to sell way more clothes than in the past.

I really doubt that TBH. It just means that the already tight margins on most crafted items are even tighter. Already more people are selling on the street or via the forums.

If I want to sell a high end item now what do I do?

- Put it on auction and pay a huge amount in markup tax, maybe several times if it doesn't sell the first time?

- Buy a shop and hope enough players find and browse it for the item to sell , again losing some value from markup taxes and being left with a shop I dont really want?

 

[Solaris]

Hmmm - cant help being demonically prejudice right now at those shopowners who loaded their shops with 5 or 6 shopkeepers

*brushing off the demons*
Avoiding tax when using ShopKeeper is not the only advantage these little beauties have (or had?). It was also possible to sell lowlow markup items and items without tt-value through a Shopkeeper. Both not possible from the Shop.

• ESI's and BP's with value below 5 pec is not sellable through a Shop, but will go in the Keeper.
• Pixie armor cannot sell with shop minimum markup of 1 ped, but will sell in shopkeeper with a markup of 50 pec (if you bother).

After reading this, my first response was wtf, screwed again, but then sat as re-read it again and thought about it. For me, I use my SK to sell M2A's with just a 5 ped markup on each. 2.5% of that markup is 12.5 pecs, noticably less then the current decay of 38.5 pec per sale, so as long as the new decay is less then 26 pec per sale, I'm actually better off.

You have a very nice and well-equipped shop Trabin. But why the heck would you sell M2A's from a shopkeeper?

Items with a markup of 5 ped, presently:
Sold from SK--> cost 40 pec (decay payed by you)
Sold from shop --> cost 12 pec (tax payed by buyer)

Items with a markup of 5 ped, future:
Sold from SK --> cost 12 pec (tax payed by ?) + decay ??pec (payed by you)
Sold from shop --> cost 12 pec (tax payed by buyer)

As you say yourself, it is now most economic to sell high markup items (+16 ped) from a shopkeeper. The rest should be put in the shop. After this change it wont make any difference - actually will only cost more to use the Keeper.

Ontopic:
If MA is not determined to make Shopkeepers tt-food, they better make the future decay VERY small, in order to justify the additional 14 items you may add into a shop.
Im sad too to see this change. Actually I dont see why MA had to do this, as I found Shopkeepers and Mannequins a truly fun and special little extra toy to play with. Now its just about the same as the ordinary shop, so why bother?

MA could have fixed this issue in a far more elegant way with simply lowering/stopping the Loot-rate or banning them from shops, so shopkeepers only could be used on private estate. This would have kept them, what they used to be: A special and valuable item to play with.

And about the Auction v/s numbers of shops in the future:
You all do see where MA is heading, dont you?
Wave to the resellers, Mum

 

[P-J]

My first response to 711 is that he hasn't followed the prices on Shopkeepers ... when he says:

"As for the shopkeepers, think what would happen if MA didn't make this change. Every shopowner in the new malls would be scrambling to buy every shopkeeper they could find to avoid paying the 2.5% tax to the mall owner. The price of shopkeepers would SKYROCKET."

You really are out of touch. The price as already skyrocketed and the people that have them now are on the whole the very people that are potential customers for shops in the mall...people who already have shops and were willing to take a further gamble. Do you really think that there are hordes of people out in game with peds to burn on shops and the skills to run them? As for the business oportunity - I have been running shops since they were introduced and the inflexibility and relatively high cost of sales (relative to the value of the items being sold) mean that they are a really poor business investment. Do you remember Da Celt, do you even know who these people were...how profesionally they ran the shops and associated websites and when they sold out of the shopowning game? Even some of your mods have bought shops decided they couldn't run them at a profit and sold them.

My impression is that only handful of people are making a profit working as shop owners…I guess a small minority of these are making money if they account for the working capital they invested. If you add in the opportunity cost of the capital invested (i.e what else could I have done with the cash if I didn’t put it into a shop e.g buy shares) then I recon probably only the high level crafters are making a profit. So buying a shop is a risk... and having a shopkeeper gave you a slight edge...just like owning a decent fap does for hunters etc.

This change to the shopkeepers seems to be incredibly stupid …it means that a lot of people who may have thought of investing in a mall shop won’t do it now…unless they are selling low value items. Low value items have a low mark up –so you are going to have to sell a heck of a lot of items to make 140 ped – which makes it a more risky investment.

So MA could have undermined the sale price of the malls and ensured that the malls will be full of shops selling low markup items (pixie anyone)?

 

[Solaris]

So MA could have undermined the sale price of the malls and ensured that the malls will be full of shops selling low markup items (pixie anyone)?

Basically agree on your post above, but Pixie? With a shoprent at Atlantis of 140 ped/month for the medium shops?

hihi - I doubt it. (Mall-owners, you are so being screwed right now )

 

[Trabin]

You have a very nice and well-equipped shop Trabin. But why the heck would you sell M2A's from a shopkeeper?

Items with a markup of 5 ped, presently:
Sold from SK--> cost 40 pec (decay payed by you)
Sold from shop --> cost 12 pec (tax payed by buyer)

Items with a markup of 5 ped, future:
Sold from SK --> cost 12 pec (tax payed by ?) + decay ??pec (payed by you)
Sold from shop --> cost 12 pec (tax payed by buyer)

As you say yourself, it is now most economic to sell high markup items (+16 ped) from a shopkeeper. The rest should be put in the shop. After this change it wont make any difference - actually will only cost more to use the Keeper.

Thx for the kind words about my shop Solaris.

For me, it's a question of space, 75 items in the shop + 10 in the window just isn't enough for the type of shop I'm trying to run, bulk turnover, low markup. Therefore I use the shopkeeper for my most popular item, and I take the hit in the decay for it.

The logical move for me would have been to get one of the 300 item shops in the emerald mall, but the monthly fee would kill that option for me. Therefore effectively this change has just made the malls even less attractive to me, I may as well just buy another 1 or 2 SK's as they will be dirt cheap (ok, maybe not) - but then again I try not to follow the general trend - lol.

But back on topic, SK's are good for selling items below the minimum value that can be dropped in shops, as you say bp's, (ESI's I've not tried since the change, but I'd guess they can now be dropped in shops), also fully decayed items (non-L of course).

Trabin.

 

[Lighterthief]

lol

its easy, we have malls... and the mall owners will wanna make tax on sales of items, but the old system for SK didnt allow that, so u would put ur high value stuff in a SK and no tax was paid on it. This is obviously a problems when the mall owners see then have no income

so it needs to be addressed imo

oki next point is that as i see it this is half the cost compared to auction fees, so MA are activly trying to promote the use of shops
again thats a pretty good thing

its just balancing, and yes the ppl will have to pay tax. But this is not a nerf imo, its balancing to keep shops as a viable alternative to auction

 

[Solaris]

Nope - I still cant drop ESI's in my shop. Not even with the new system. Filled chips will do.

And correct. Shopkeepers are also good for items with "dead" value.

its just balancing, and yes the ppl will have to pay tax. But this is not a nerf imo, its balancing to keep shops as a viable alternative to auction

..and for the 'viability': You got to sell soooo many amps to turn back the downside of the month:
"Rent is not payed. Please insert card and deposit 140 ped"

 

[Trabin]

Nope - I still cant drop ESI's in my shop. Not even with the new system. Filled chips will do.

And correct. Shopkeepers are also good for items with "dead" value.


..and for the 'viability': You got to sell soooo many amps to turn back the downside of the month:
"Rent is not payed. Please insert card and deposit 140 ped"

Thx for the info about ESI's - you learn something new every day

The rent will be the big killer of these malls, for me I'd have to turn over some 300+ m2a's a month to cover just the rent (yes, the margain is that small when you exclude the fluky globals you get every now and again). For me, that just makes it too big a gamble to move to a mall, unless the shop was free, and even then I'd have to carefully weigh up if it'd be worth moving.

I also doubt you'll see that many mall shops used to sell tt junk - these shops only exist now due to the very low rent, and are almost as viable as an apartment for overflow storage, with the benefit that some things could be sold being worth the extra 2 ped a month. I think the mall owners have a real headache in getting more then 2 or 3 shop owners interested in moving there, as shops that profit enough to cover the rent is almost as rare as looting shadow. This change is just one more thing to put shop owners off paying the high rent, where it may have been viable with the saved taxes from items sold in the shopkeepers.

Trabin.

 

[Mathayus]

THis mall thing,just will make some people richer (mall owners), and this will lead to old shopowners to see theyr bussiness sink,and with this,the owners of the estates where those shops are located will lose too,cause it won't exist taxes for them to win money with,because no1 will go to shops cause they can get into the malls with a simple teleportation,so old shopowners sink,and estate owners of where those shops are located will see a decrease in theyr income..
OR the other chance, the ppl who buys this malls will make the worst investment ever cause no1 would buy shops there...
Or still,ols shopowners will hang on, new mall owners will be successfull by selling the shops in the malls,BUT ther won't be any1 buying the stuffs in the shops...
Just my

 

[Etopia]

As for the shopkeepers, think what would happen if MA didn't make this change. Every shopowner in the new malls would be scrambling to buy every shopkeeper they could find to avoid paying the 2.5% tax to the mall owner. The price of shopkeepers would SKYROCKET. And why should a shopowner be allowed to take advantage of the mallowner's investment by using a loophole to avoid paying the tax? It's unrealistic, and simply not good for the overall EU economy. We should be glad MA is instituting this change before the auctions end and the loophole gets abused. Cheers to MA for thinking ahead on this one.

Then they can only fobiden SK from those mall , i dont carre.
My whole business can survive because i manage since i am tailor (more than 3 year experiance).To craft item and sell them.
Auction tax eat all my margin , even on master coat if i have to put them som week in auction.
Advantage of my shop is that i wont pay tax so i can sell cheaper.
If i pay kinda same tax in auction or in shop , i will use auction , and not bother with mall.I dont carre to make a mall owner rich.And i dont carre to help MA make crap PR.
I prefert make action with other happy player and vote for EU in som MMO site , or make nice post.
But i still think there a poor management here.
Since last VU , i work hard to buy SK , and make a great shop.There not zillion crafter that manage to live from their crafting , and all crafter i know that got a shop and that manage to make profit use shopkeeper.

If MA think the new mall is so fantastic then they should only make SK non usable there...
But then , we all know no even 1 serious crafter will buy a shop there.

 

[gekkegerrit]

If MA start demanding I pay taxes on my shopkeepers stationed on my estates on treasure island, I will do the same thing as if a group of thugs came demanding cash from my business in real life, i'll leave you think about that one

 

[Etopia]

So many of your posts show that you still view this as simply a "game." The beauty of EU is that it can be what you want it to be. If you want to approach EU like a typical MMORPG and simply hunt and "play" you can do that, and have a great time. Then when you decide to leave, there is a decent chance that your avatar is worth more than you deposited. Show me a "typical" MMORPG where that is possible before PE?

How can i write name of other MMO in that forum when its forbiden by rules to do it ?

You are not aware about what happen in other MMO because you dont alow people to speak about it here.
As for fact , PE is way far from alowing player to make as much money as player can do in other game.

{DELETED}

 

[711]

How can i write name of other MMO in that forum when its forbiden by rules to do it ?

You are not aware about what happen in other MMO because you dont alow people to speak about it here.
As for fact , PE is way far from alowing player to make as much money as player can do in other game.

{DELETED}

You are correct, my statement was unfair, since it invites discussion of other games, which is not allowed. I apologize.

My point remains valid however, that many players in EU have left with more than they put in, and this is still happening on a regular basis.

 

[Etopia]

My point remains valid however, that many players in EU have left with more than they put in, and this is still happening on a regular basis.

This aint very right....
And still compared to other game , those that bother to do business in other game (selling item,avatar...) make a lot more than what they put in , also they got cash right in time and dont need wait 4 month...


As for change on shop and shopkeeper , i think this time MA fucked me enought with the the whole "shop" system...
I keep invest to run a shop since 3 year (when MA created shopkeeper) , and i still got fucked when MA make change to "improve" the system.
They dont improve the system , they just make new things better than the old so you have to create your business all over again , again , and again...

I owned houses, where i was runing shopkeeper....MA created new rule to improve that system and alow more shopkeeper.
The rule was the number of shopkeeper will be proportional at house size.
Back then i had 3 big houses(back then people who had one was called dumb asshole).
I thought its was good mouve.
Sadly , MA created rule that the number of SK you could have depend on volume of the property.
Since old house was 12 m hight and new house was 28m height.
All my house was alowed to 2 keeper , when new little house was for 3 ....

I send suport , saying it was stupid , and they should make it proportional to the the property square and not volume.
MA said me i was aware about what i bouth because it was write on it ... so i have to live with it.

MA was aware when they designed the keeper about what they make ... now they have to live with it...

 

[P-J]

Duplicate Post

 

[P-J]

711 - two quick points - look at who is posting here - these are people that have supported and invested in MA - they have put hard cash and support into the game. So the nice words about how generally great the game is aren't necessary. We are talking about a specific issue.

A second issue for you is that at least two of the current owners of EU shops have much bigger operations in another game. So the argument that there aren't alternatives doesn't hang together - some of the people I see as high profile shopkeepers are already migrating.

The days when EU was 'unique' are over - EU has to be competitive. This change to the shopkeeper system makes it even less attractive to own a shop in this game and even more difficult to make money.

 

[Darkaner]

I keep invest to run a shop since 3 year (when MA created shopkeeper) , and i still got fucked when MA make change to "improve" the system.
They dont improve the system , they just make new things better than the old so you have to create your business all over again , again , and again...

That's exactly the problem : If a new system needs improving, they don't improve it but rather nerf something else to match the problems of the new system. Not enough people visiting shops? Lets nerf the auction. Too expensive and useless malls/shops? Lets nerf the shopkeepers.

If MA wants more investors they need to come up with a better way of solving problems. I dunno, perhaps do a little more thinking before they introduce flawed systems?

 

[Dunn]

That's exactly the problem : If a new system needs improving, they don't improve it but rather nerf something else to match the problems of the new system. Not enough people visiting shops? Lets nerf the auction. Too expensive and useless malls/shops? Lets nerf the shopkeepers.

If MA wants more investors they need to come up with a better way of solving problems. I dunno, perhaps do a little more thinking before they introduce flawed systems?

Agreed, they way MA has solved problems as showed a total lack of creativity. Personly i'm sick if the lets make other systems worse so this can look good, ffs its not that hard to make the shopkeepers an items that cannot be used in the new mall shops, no need to tax them. I for once will not visit the new malls when i'm looking for items

 

[GandalfSzary]

ok so what is decay actually atm? It used to be 38.5 on sale and 1 pec per setting price.

Oh and one more thing if someone selling tt stuf he/she doesn't pay any tax, only decay is that correct?

 

[Darkaner]

ok so what is decay actually atm? It used to be 38.5 on sale and 1 pec per setting price.

Something like that. I think it is 40 pec per sale.

Oh and one more thing if someone selling tt stuf he/she doesn't pay any tax, only decay is that correct?

So it seems, if the info from MA is correct.

 

[GandalfSzary]

Darkaner that is decay which used to be. In official MA statement there is sentence saying that decay will derease. So I'd like to know if that is true and if anyone knows how big is actually decay right now ?

 

[Darkaner]

Darkaner that is decay which used to be. In official MA statement there is sentence saying that decay will derease. So I'd like to know if that is true and if anyone knows how big is actually decay right now ?

They havent changed it yet.