MA revenue and lootpool....

You just don't seem to grasp what I'm trying to say. MA most likely spends the money we deposit, but that money is still ours. Unless we do something against the EULA, they cannot legally keep us from withdrawing that money.

That being said, purchasing shares in a company is nothing like putting your money in a bank, which is basically what a player does when depositing.

Also, what exactly does my age have to do with this? -rep for that comment, stay the course.
 
Phobia said:
You just don't seem to grasp what I'm trying to say. MA most likely spends the money we deposit, but that money is still ours. Unless we do something against the EULA, they cannot legally keep us from withdrawing that money.

Actually, the EULA says this:

MindArk's liability towards any Participant shall in each incidence be limited to no more than the initial amount transferred by said Participant into Project Entropia.

DD
:evilking:
 
Correct DD, I didn't make myself very clear when saying that. Basically, if I deposit $10 USD, and do not spend it on an item, and can withdraw that amount of money freely.
 
I actually have to side with Cade on this... While technically, depositors are not investors, if we look at it from a different angle, and that being that we deposit money which they use to maintain servers, pay staff etc... and if we're really careful with our money... we can earn an increase on it... and then get it back at some stage.... this is exactly like investing.... apart from not "owning" a part of the business.... but we're talking about depositing now, not ownership...

But really guys, why are we getting uptight ??? Can't we keep this thread constructive ? Its these threads I really love on EF, because we're getting to use our minds, and do some thinking.... and seeing different ideas from different people.... lets not bash eachother.
 
Phobia said:
Correct DD, I didn't make myself very clear when saying that. Basically, if I deposit $10 USD, and do not spend it on an item, and can withdraw that amount of money freely.

Agreed. However, an Attorny may read the same statement to say "If your first deposit to PE was $10 then that is all they are EVER liable for". Just something to think about.

DD
:evilking:
 
I think we should bring that issue to MA's attention. That kind of statement is a bit too vague, thanks for that insite DD.
 
When you buy shares in MindArk you would invest in the company itself, where PE us the only service of MindArk atm (as I'm aware off). You would then be liable to the investment itself only (as the company is a Limited Company "AB"). If MA venture into other services/products that would be apart of your investment. The Return Of Inventment (ROI) will be in form off yearly dividends or you could sell your shares with a profit. Comment; as MA is not a public, the market is not liquid and its often difficult to sell them.

However when you deposit you are only investing in PED's which are the currency in PE. The PED's can be used to invest in digital content which exist solely in PE only with a certain TT value. MA may only return the total TT values of your assets in the game, even here have MA safeguarded themself in the EULA to the extreme. The EULA states that MA are not even liable to return your TT values. Potential Market values on your items are not considered a value before they are sold.

You do not have any ownership to MA or PE whatsoever when depositing to PE, but you are a owner off your own assets, with the respective TT values.

A few explanations in terms used in PE equal to terms used in MA's balance sheets.
Depositing = equal to Total Income
Withdrawal = equal to Total Cost

MA's Profit = Depositing - Withdrawal - operating cost
MA's liability to PE players = their respective Total TT value, not what they have been depositing. EDIT: where the EULA limits to the actual initial deposit, been said earlier in this forum
 
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Phobia said:
Also, what exactly does my age have to do with this? -rep for that comment, stay the course.
sorry, didnt know id actually hit home there :rolleyes:
Devil Doll said:
Agreed. However, an Attorny may read the same statement to say "If your first deposit to PE was $10 then that is all they are EVER liable for". Just something to think about.
... elaborate? :confused:

hebber, thx for the constructive post... but i wont quote/respond to anything from it directly until ive either had a couple of hours of sleep, or some more coffee ;p
 
Sperlunker said:
Another thing has been missed in all this aswell. What about the people that bought peds thru paypal, moneybookers, etc.? would they influence the equation? or would it not matter since the peds are still ingame and MA isnt gaining or losing money?

Ppl that bought and sold peds thru paypal, I believe made the inflation in value of items even higher.
Reason for this is that ppl who deposit money in a legal way, will get TT-value back (on PED card) in peds from the controlled economy.
Ppl who "deposit" within Paypal only put in "inflation" as it doesn't add peds in a macroeconomic perspective within PE.

Equation will be as this.

Loot + inflation + skill values = decay + ammo and other consumable resources spent.

Loot is money + items + increase in skill value. The items and skill value are the only that inflate. Also inflation in value of items and skills are something that prevent "vets" from paying to much for decay and ammo used.

/Kjetil :cool:
 
Some thoguhts

About MAs profit and turnover.
Reading some articles ive found this: http://www.vlado.se/bridge/case/Mindark_PE_AB_EN.pdf.
As you can see, there has been created 450,000 accounts during the time the game has been around, currently there is 270,000 accounts, which of 90,000 are active. How much activity that defines an active account i can only make a guess on, and mine would be that its accounts thats logged into from time to time to avoid them from being locked due to "time out". Dont remember that exact timespan but i wonder if its 3 or 6 months.
Also you can see that MAs prognosis is 11 million SEK profit for 2005.
And yes, if the deposit ratio get too low, the game WILL dry up as there is no fresh investements to redistribute. No input means no output and if thats redicilous, you need to take some math classes.
Obviously MA wont give out money that we dont deposit and at the current time, without the deposits, the rest of the income MA has wouldnt be able to sustain a viable ingame economy for very long and if loots get TOO bad it get too expencive to play and people quit. Of course, its also somewhat self regulating as most people will make small deposits if they run out of cash.. however, the richest ones in this game can gon on for a longass time without depositing as they have avatars thats worth 150k PED and more.. much more.

About peds and items bough with other payment methods.
If I send Kjetil 1000 USD and take over all his ingame assets, that doesnt affect the economy of PE in any direct way. MA still have the cash in the game and if i spend them or if Kjetil spend them doesnt really matter much to them. However it might have indirect affects if Kjetil had it all stashed on an inactive account and never actually used any of it. If i take it over, its obviously because i want to use it and the fact that its in use instead of "ideling" makes some difference, as I can either lose or gain on the investment.
Also beware, this is now NOT ALLOWED to do according to the EULA, probably because MA got fed up with stupid "i got scammed on PayPal" support cases that they cant really do anything with.

As to depositing.
Depositing into PE is in my opinion just what some other people mentioned, paying for entertainment. However this entertainment can provide you with some serious profit.
Me and 4 other friends have made well over 10,000 USD profit each wich kinda sets the standard for how many people that have to deposit 100 USD only to cover our profits.
Most of this profit is also already withdrawn from the game.
The irony of it all is that we have been playing for the fun of it and not for the purpose of making profit, now thats the REAL fun :p
If im uber or not.. not my decision to make really nor do i actually care very much, but i guess most people that know me would consider me to be.

As to the working of PE
There is several ways of going about how to play PE in a cheapest possible way. The way me and my friends has been going is to play for fun and to get as much as possible out of PE in that regard.
Most of us, if not all also have interests that goes beyond roleplaying and also covers computers, software engineering, economy, math and how games work, this of course made us go deeper into PE than we would in a normal pay-to-play MMORPG and made us look for things you normally wont look for. Of course inflation also helps when you buy an item and use it for a year before selling it, however most of my profit i have had from hunting and mining "the right things, at the right place, at the right time". I have also had some profit with crafting, but im not too much into that.
Unfortunately, Im currently on ISDN so im unable to be as active as I used to be, but when I do play, i still usually come out with profit unless i try "new things".

A great fighter was once asked how he got so much better than his opponents. his answer was "I have made more mistakes and found out what doesnt work".
If you can affford doing that, thats another approach.
 
Tigerman said:
About MAs profit and turnover.
Reading some articles ive found this: http://www.vlado.se/bridge/case/Mindark_PE_AB_EN.pdf.
As you can see, there has been created 450,000 accounts during the time the game has been around, currently there is 270,000 accounts, which of 90,000 are active. How much activity that defines an active account i can only make a guess on, and mine would be that its accounts thats logged into from time to time to avoid them from being locked due to "time out". Dont remember that exact timespan but i wonder if its 3 or 6 months.
This I think you are right about. The 450,000 accounts, I believe is a total user accounts created within the 5 year game has going on. Mostly of the accounts I guess have been created last 2 years. 180,000 of the 450,000 accounts have been deleted due to various reasons. 90,000 of the 270,000 (originally 450,000) accounts log into game in regular basis. I don't think that more then 10,000 accounts play more then 1 times a week though.
Tigerman said:
Also you can see that MAs prognosis is 11 million SEK profit for 2005.
And yes, if the deposit ratio get too low, the game WILL dry up as there is no fresh investements to redistribute. No input means no output and if thats redicilous, you need to take some math classes.
This is partly right in the short run, but of course correct in the long run. I guess that Mindark as company know their own economy and use and analyze their own budget from yearly (and monthly results of experience)
Tigerman said:
Obviously MA wont give out money that we dont deposit and at the current time, without the deposits, the rest of the income MA has wouldnt be able to sustain a viable ingame economy for very long and if loots get TOO bad it get too expencive to play and people quit. Of course, its also somewhat self regulating as most people will make small deposits if they run out of cash.. however, the richest ones in this game can gon on for a longass time without depositing as they have avatars thats worth 150k PED and more.. much more.
It is of course obvious that MA don't will give out money that they haven't got in (deposit). About loot, it will allways be bad for ppl who are not used to real economy in computer games. Anyway, I know that the playerbase on PE is ppl over 20 years old and have money to use on entertainment. Also some is used for investment.
Tigerman said:
About peds and items bough with other payment methods.
If I send Kjetil 1000 USD and take over all his ingame assets, that doesnt affect the economy of PE in any direct way. MA still have the cash in the game and if i spend them or if Kjetil spend them doesnt really matter much to them. However it might have indirect affects if Kjetil had it all stashed on an inactive account and never actually used any of it. If i take it over, its obviously because i want to use it and the fact that its in use instead of "ideling" makes some difference, as I can either lose or gain on the investment.
This is correct until there will be an ingame withdrawal.
Let us say that Kjetil deposited 1000 USD over several years.
If Tigerman send Kjetil 1000 USD and take over all his ingame assets. Later Tigerman find out that he want to sell out and sell everything to MindBuster for 12000 PED. Tigerman then withdraw 12000 PED out of game from deposited money. Kjetil and MindBuster deposited total 22 000 PED.
TT-value of the stuff is of course not any near the 22 000 PED. Difference is inflation and decay. (Decay is paying to Mindark for the entertainment.)
Since MindBuster don't want to sell for less then the price he bought his stuff, prices will not go down. Some items will maybe be stored in storage for later use instead of be sold with a "loss".
MindBuster, Tigerman and Kjetil can be any PE-player, only to state some examples here.
To prevent market to crash, Mindark reduce drop rate for items and inflation continues. Last 2 years with items, next 2 years with ??? :D
Harder to get or gain, higher market price. :wise:
About what you say about the indirect affect, I am agree in the microeconomics perspective. It can either lose or gain on the investment for the individual user. If gain, means lose for other players.
Tigerman said:
Also beware, this is now NOT ALLOWED to do according to the EULA, probably because MA got fed up with stupid "i got scammed on PayPal" support cases that they cant really do anything with.
Agree on observation and example was economy pass to new CoU.

Tigerman said:
As to depositing.
Depositing into PE is in my opinion just what some other people mentioned, paying for entertainment. However this entertainment can provide you with some serious profit.
Me and 4 other friends have made well over 10,000 USD profit each wich kinda sets the standard for how many people that have to deposit 100 USD only to cover our profits.
Most of this profit is also already withdrawn from the game.
The irony of it all is that we have been playing for the fun of it and not for the purpose of making profit, now thats the REAL fun :p
If im uber or not.. not my decision to make really nor do i actually care very much, but i guess most people that know me would consider me to be.

As to the working of PE
There is several ways of going about how to play PE in a cheapest possible way. The way me and my friends has been going is to play for fun and to get as much as possible out of PE in that regard.
Most of us, if not all also have interests that goes beyond roleplaying and also covers computers, software engineering, economy, math and how games work, this of course made us go deeper into PE than we would in a normal pay-to-play MMORPG and made us look for things you normally wont look for. Of course inflation also helps when you buy an item and use it for a year before selling it, however most of my profit i have had from hunting and mining "the right things, at the right place, at the right time". I have also had some profit with crafting, but im not too much into that.
Unfortunately, Im currently on ISDN so im unable to be as active as I used to be, but when I do play, i still usually come out with profit unless i try "new things".

A great fighter was once asked how he got so much better than his opponents. his answer was "I have made more mistakes and found out what doesnt work".
If you can affford doing that, thats another approach.

It was much more easier to make profit from investments done last 3 years then from investment put into current economy. Reason for this is f.ex drop rate of items and inflation in price, but most important many new players that join. Old players benefit in this from several years of game experience.
I know for sure this, because marketvalue of stuff I got (items, various skills) for 2 years ago, is now much higher then when I acquired those.

I am agree with you that it is important to be in the right place to right time and combinate with experience. All I can say about this is that I don't think 10K USD is so much money in the long run if PE will be successfull. Then we can talk about millions. :cool:

To try and fail is very important to success both in RL and in PE.
Also to learn from failure and to adapt with an open mind. Risky investments are allways a thrill and PE is a great entertainment.

/Kjetil :cool:
 
Kjetil

Kjetil said:
This is correct until there will be an ingame withdrawal.
Let us say that Kjetil deposited 1000 USD over several years.
If Tigerman send Kjetil 1000 USD and take over all his ingame assets. Later Tigerman find out that he want to sell out and sell everything to MindBuster for 12000 PED. Tigerman then withdraw 12000 PED out of game from deposited money. Kjetil and MindBuster deposited total 22 000 PED.
TT-value of the stuff is of course not any near the 22 000 PED. Difference is inflation and decay. (Decay is paying to Mindark for the entertainment.)
Since MindBuster don't want to sell for less then the price he bought his stuff, prices will not go down. Some items will maybe be stored in storage for later use instead of be sold with a "loss".
MindBuster, Tigerman and Kjetil can be any PE-player, only to state some examples here.
To prevent market to crash, Mindark reduce drop rate for items and inflation continues. Last 2 years with items, next 2 years with ???
Harder to get or gain, higher market price.
About what you say about the indirect affect, I am agree in the microeconomics perspective. It can either lose or gain on the investment for the individual user. If gain, means lose for other players.
Well if there is a withdrawal, i consider that an indirect affect, but of course in the example where i bought it, sure there will be a withdrawal at some time :p
But the effect on the economy only come if i withdraw more than you deposited for the stuff, which again, i probably would.
However not everyone is as successfull (many like to call it lucky, i say screw luck) as I have been and still am.

And no, in MAs budget 10k USD arent that much, but when its many people making this much, it get big numbers quite soon.
And as i said, its me and 4 others that i know thats made over 10k USD each, wich sums at 50k USD and thats over a quarter million SEK. If you compare that to the 11 million SEK that they think theyll profit in 2005, thats suddenly a decent chunk of money.
Also, i think (or hope maybe?) that me and the 4 others arent the only ones profiting in this game :p

and btw.. rep to you ;)
 
Cade said:
sorry, didnt know id actually hit home there :rolleyes: ...

Again, you are saying something out of the context of this conversation. And it just so happens that it's another personal remark. You need to quit while you're ahead, and stop running your own thread into the ground.
 
Phobia said:
I think we should bring that issue to MA's attention. That kind of statement is a bit too vague, thanks for that insite DD.

Oh, I am sure they are perfectly aware of what it says. :cool:

DD
:evilking:
 
Just on a similar sidenote,

I do recall reading somewhere that the size of the PE economy was larger than some small countries.

Old News reference.
Project Entropia economy statistics 23 Aug 2004
MindArk PE is happy to present some key figures from the Project Entropia economy (as of the beginning of August 2004):

175 295 –> The total number of auctions of virtual items since October 2003
US$ 70 000 –> The value of virtual house sales since November 2003
US$ 40 700 000 -> Total economy turnover since January 2004
 
The turnover for Jan 05 alone was 16,349,625 USD as well from some other figures I've found. According to Marco it has tripled in six months.
 
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