Mentoring without gifts

[Kras]

Ok, there has been a lot of discussion over the merits of the mentoring system.

I am against it for several reasons as it is at the moment, but other people are all for it and many of these are good mentors I have no doubt.

What I am really interested in is if anyone would become a mentor if there was no gift at the end of the process...honest answers only please

 

[Viper81883]

of course. there are tons of people that simply enjoy helping others, and this allows them to track the progress of their troop. It is better than just offering help, it allows you to know what area to help in too. My disciple will probably never finish. She is hardly ever on, but when she is i take her hunting and mining just to try and help her. She is still new, and i like being able to guide somebody

 

[junkyard]

well man i voted no but that's just because i'm drunk...

 

[Mooze]

I won't lie ... till now I've been a mentor for the gift (and of course, to help newcomers ... but I usualy do that without being a mentor).

I would mentor newcomers without the gift only if the system let them (the newcomers) have benefits from that ... else I'll just put them in my fl and answer all their questions.

 

[Alice]

to be honest,
no,
at least i wouldn't spent as much time as i do know with it (well, atm not, preparing for some tests at uni)
i spent such a lot of time, and saw so many ppl quit, i guess just with typing and tp running i spent at least 4 days (hour here, hour there)
and im pretty sure alot of ppl like to help, but where are they when you need them?
i don't see so many unofficial mentors in PA just to help newbies to Atlas Haven or so
i don't see them how they tell newcomers they should add them in their friendlist so they can be asked all the time
i think you underestimate the mentor role a bit.
it isn't just standing around in phoenix, wait until someone asks you and disappear for hunting in 30 min
it is mainly about the availibilty over time, and i think you have the right to be rewared for this, even if its crap usually
but to give you an impression, read my guide so far, the first 30 disciples i had (during the great newbie wave when CND was introduced, i took my first disciples in Troy, and took them to Phoenix; to add something, just 1 of them graduated, the rest i didn't saw again after 2 days)
i wrote to every disciple, with old chat system (you know, open PM, write send, open PM, write send,...), at least an overview about the prof standings, how sweating works, how you can turn, etc.etc.
i did endless runnings

to be honest part 2
i was never really after a justMK5 ME, i know i will never get one, and if, i wouldn't sell it and cash it out, i would start skilling rifle
the only thing i would really like, is a whip, simply because it looks cool

to be honest part 3,
i don't do it just for the gift (overall 10 disciples graduated, and i just got crap), if i would need this money, i would rather sweat, get more skills and get more cash

to be honest part 4,
i dislike all those ppl who get as much disciples in as less time they can, and hope someone will make it
just to mention it, i have 94 disciples too, but my recruiting interval is around 4-8 in around 1 week (just the recruiting and explaining of the mentor system takes around 1-3 hours for 4 disciples), take them to Atlas Haven (better start town) and then i wait at least another week for the next ones (most quit after 2 days, what i know, and i take most of them to Atlas Haven anyway, call me dump or stupid for it).
when i have time again after the test, i will kick around 50, and get some new

to be honest part 5
why do you play ans why do you follow your profession?
to get rich? to get rare items?
anyway, i always played this kind of game, to skill up, even it goes slowly, and to collect quite rare stuff
because my resources aren't that high, i simply try to get the mentor stuff the way it should be collected, by helping newcomers, not with buying
and where is the fun if you buy all the stuff? i always enjoyed to find it

to be honest part 6
i wouldn't mentor if i wouldn't like it, most of the time it is a great dissappointement when all the ppl quit, not even saying "thank you for your time spent" and leave without a word
but it is really nice to see those ppl graduate, and seeing their progress in the game (see my mentorship offer thread, signature)
to be honest part 7
instead of taking away the gift, make it untradeable, and you could just sell it at the trade terminal, like the beginner clothes
what i think about the mentoring system at all, is that the gift is not the main problem, more the interval when you can be a disciple, and kick your mentor, but see in my signature about this topic, Ideas about the mentoring system

sidenote, if you would take away the gift, how many newcomers would just quit because they can't figure out the controls and always run in the next wall? , or quit because they see the lag in PA?
sidenote 2, i had unofficial disciples too, and they are still active "thx"

 

[Wormie]

I voted no, coz I'm not mentoring even there is gifts

I have considered it though....

 

[Esmerelda]

I think the mentoring gift is a nice reward for the time invested. I'm always willing to help newcomers, I'll let them add me to their fl and answer questions where I can but I'm not totally invested in them. I'm willing to take them out sweating, perhaps run to a few tp's but it's when I feel like it.

The gift, small although it is most of the time recognises the mentor's time and efforts, not only with helping the newcomer find his/her feet in the game but also, I 'spose, from MA's point of view, if a newbie has a friendly person to help them out, they're more likely to stay in the game

I have/had a disciple who hasn't been seen for a bit and no doubt has decided not to play, I became his mentor only because he asked me, I didn't solicit for it at all, and my decision to take him on wasn't at all motivated by the thought of a gift at the end of the process. Saying that, I'm not at all sure that if there wasn't a gift, I would have bothered to put quite as much effort in as I did.

 

[Kras]

to be honest part 5
why do you play ans why do you follow your profession?
to get rich? to get rare items?
anyway, i always played this kind of game, to skill up, even it goes slowly, and to collect quite rare stuff
because my resources aren't that high, i simply try to get the mentor stuff the way it should be collected, by helping newcomers, not with buying
and where is the fun if you buy all the stuff? i always enjoyed to find it

This is the most interesting point you raised IMO and mainly why I started the poll - that a lot of players seem to invest in the mentor system as a means to further their capital within the game. I would even say their is nothing wrong with that if - like you seem to - provide a good deal of help and advice. Problem is - and it is a major problem it seems - how many players don't care a damn about their responsibilities and seek to harvest purely for the gift, leaving in their wake a lot of dejected and 'used' noobs?

I don't know the answer to this, but I suspect it is far too many. A lot of people who leave the game after a few days will do so anyway I admit, but I wonder how many more would stay if the mentor system was overhauled - scrapped in favour of something else even. We can't assume they all leave for the same reasons and it is easy to put the quitters into the same group.

But after all there are people behind the jumpsuits who might have decided for themselves, at an early stage, that they are being manipulated and want no part in EU. They may have gained a distorted view of the community from one of these cynical harvesters of disciples and we never get to really hear about it and worse, never see them develop beyond this embryonic phase.

This is why I am against the gift - to make the chances of noobs to progress far more likely with mentors who ONLY take disciples for the right reasons, not a mixture of self interest and help.

More complex for sure but I think we overlook the hidden damage being done to EU in this way.

Thanks all for your votes and replies so far...

 

[Sonya Heart]

If there was no gift there would be no point using the ingame system, I would just help people!

I have a disciple now and I put alot of effort into it, Its hard work if you are being a good mentor and the little gift is a reward for it (be it crap or not its still a gift)

Someone had an idea wherby the system knew if you had interaction, which could be good,

Personally a good way to make mentoring something you have to work at is to allow the Disciple to decide if the mentor deserves the gift.

 

[Alice]

This is the most interesting point you raised IMO and mainly why I started the poll - that a lot of players seem to invest in the mentor system as a means to further their capital within the game. I would even say their is nothing wrong with that if - like you seem to - provide a good deal of help and advice. Problem is - and it is a major problem it seems - how many players don't care a damn about their responsibilities and seek to harvest purely for the gift, leaving in their wake a lot of dejected and 'used' noobs?

I don't know the answer to this, but I suspect it is far too many. A lot of people who leave the game after a few days will do so anyway I admit, but I wonder how many more would stay if the mentor system was overhauled - scrapped in favour of something else even. We can't assume they all leave for the same reasons and it is easy to put the quitters into the same group.

But after all there are people behind the jumpsuits who might have decided for themselves, at an early stage, that they are being manipulated and want no part in EU. They may have gained a distorted view of the community from one of these cynical harvesters of disciples and we never get to really hear about it and worse, never see them develop beyond this embryonic phase.

This is why I am against the gift - to make the chances of noobs to progress far more likely with mentors who ONLY take disciples for the right reasons, not a mixture of self interest and help.

More complex for sure but I think we overlook the hidden damage being done to EU in this way.

Thanks all for your votes and replies so far...

as i said, i don't like those ppl too, but rather the time a disciple would be able to kick a mentor should be changed
i already wrote a solution about this in a thread here, and as a support case to MA
more i can't do
and i don't do it to raise my capital, i don't think i will ever get something useful

 

[Trux]

yes!
why? chances are, that u get a trustworthy friend or soc-member, that is worth much more than a mentor-gift...

i would also like to see the mentor-system being replaced. every avatar should be able to choose (only one time in an avatar's life) another avatar, who helped him most to get the required skills (that means: at the point he reaches the skill-requirements). that avatar could be given a gift then...

trux

 

[Mac Benelli]

To make it short: Yes i would , i dont care gifts.

 

[leftmostlane]

I would do it, just not as often and give away far fewer pixie pieces.

 

[Vixen78]

I voted yes... I have 2 disciples and have mentored 3 other players without actually making them my disciple, It's not about the Mentor gift and It never was. It's about meeting new people, and doing what I can to contribute, and hoping that I have made someone's EU experience a good one


I can't help but think that I must be sounding like a broken record

 

[Spud Striker]

Kind of a sidenote, but I think the gift values should be somewhat normalized. Seems like a guy could easily spend months helping a guy out, and get a 5 ped item. I don't mentor soley for the items, it's a lot about meeting new people, but it would be nice if the range of prizes was a little less than +5-17000 ped.

 

[Recoda]

Yes, I was a mentor before the mentor-system was implented to Project Entropia (or EU as we like to call it).

I often helped people with questions, helped them gather teleports and so on. And I enjoyed to give away money for no reason at all. I would often teleport to Port Atlantis just to drop a couple of 10-Pedders. Or I'd just stop a running Newbie that was on his way to gather a teleport to ask him if he would like to have a ped or two.

I know, that was wierd. I've made it into some contests now instead, ie, a couple of weeks ago I told a newbie over at Phoenix that I would give him a rather impressive reward if he could get to the Ithaca teleport within four days. I was kinda suprised when I met him after just one and a half day, he had really been running fast through the continent. And I was in contact with him over private messages during most of the time, so it was kind of funny to hear what happened on the way.

I led him through to some teleports which was on the way and told him to stay away from certain areas. When he finally arrived I gave him a reward worth around 400 Ped. Sure, it was expensive, but it was fun. And he's still enjoying those peds.

I have mentored a couple of friends through the ingame system however, but I kinda enjoy random acts of kindness better I guess.

 

[black_rain13]

And I enjoyed to give away money for no reason at all. I would often teleport to Port Atlantis just to drop a couple of 10-Pedders. Or I'd just stop a running Newbie that was on his way to gather a teleport to ask him if he would like to have a ped or two.

I agree, I'm not uber or anything, in fact I barely get by day-to-day without being nearly broke in PED as far as this universe is concerned. That being said, I always make it a point to share with the new players when I can.

On my scheduled deposit days, I always pick up a couple of TT guns and some added ammo that is "noob food" and when I find a new player that seems to really be interested in learning some real skills and is beyond the "newly fascinated" stage, I offer them a couple of items and volunteer to help them get as many TPs as we can manage in the amount of time we have together.

I've only officially mentored one person since I started and he stopped playing after two weeks, but there are plenty of people out there that can say they have been the recipient of "good fortune and kindness" from not only myself, but quite a few others as well.

I think the few great representatives that give of themselves with no interest in the personal gain of it are the ones that need to be appreciated.

I personally wouldn't care if there weren't any rewards for mentoring and real mentors as indicated above wouldn't care either.

 

[Recoda]

I agree, I'm not uber or anything, in fact I barely get by day-to-day without being nearly broke in PED as far as this universe is concerned. That being said, I always make it a point to share with the new players when I can.

On my scheduled deposit days, I always pick up a couple of TT guns and some added ammo that is "noob food" and when I find a new player that seems to really be interested in learning some real skills and is beyond the "newly fascinated" stage, I offer them a couple of items and volunteer to help them get as many TPs as we can manage in the amount of time we have together.

I've only officially mentored one person since I started and he stopped playing after two weeks, but there are plenty of people out there that can say they have been the recipient of "good fortune and kindness" from not only myself, but quite a few others as well.

I think the few great representatives that give of themselves with no interest in the personal gain of it are the ones that need to be appreciated.

I personally wouldn't care if there weren't any rewards for mentoring and real mentors as indicated above wouldn't care either.

That's the spirit. +Rep for this!
I was in the same position as you when I offered people low end items, peds, ammo, help, etc. I hardly had enough peds to go out on a decent hunt, but I'd still give away some to the ones who needed it more than me. It sounds great that there is someone out there who acts the same way as I did back when I began.

EU would be a better place if we had more people like you.

 

[Runt]

I voted Yes. I do it most of the time anyway as most of the newcomers I meet are people who've been stomped by a bad mentor or who are too skilled, just by pure luck, to be mentored.

The gift is cool, but honestly, I keep all my gifts, I don't think I've resold any of the 12 (i think) i've gotten. If I can't or don't want to use it, i give it to the disc, if it's something they can use, or it goes to Paul (fiance) or another soc mate.

I'm not in it for the gift.

The current mentor system is messed up, but I don't think the gift is the real problem. There should be something for the disciple as well though. The problems with the current system, as many have said, is the ability for people to get taken advantage of, whether it's the mentor or the disciple.

I haven't really thought about how I would change the system, maybe, if I ever have time, I'll think of it and post it somewhere, doubt I'll ever have time though, and if I did, it would prolly mirror at least 1 other persons thoughts.

I help new players all the time. I scan the forums looking for people who could use specific help that our soc has to offer as well.

We've set up a task system for our cadets/disciples. This is something that could reap rewards for the discs if there were a gift system for them. There's lots of things that could be done.

Just my thoughts, I rambled lol, but I'm tired, so forgive me.

Runt

 

[Alice]

I voted Yes. I do it most of the time anyway as most of the newcomers I meet are people who've been stomped by a bad mentor or who are too skilled, just by pure luck, to be mentored.

i had some ideas about this, see signature

The current mentor system is messed up, but I don't think the gift is the real problem. There should be something for the disciple as well though. The problems with the current system, as many have said, is the ability for people to get taken advantage of, whether it's the mentor or the disciple.

the main problem about the gifts is that 90% are simply useless, either the economy sucks, or the attack speed, so there is no use, not for the mentor, and not for the disciple, who usually has better weapons at that time
i wouln't have a problem with better items, for the disiciple too, if they would be untradeable in trade window or auction, could not be dropped (like newbie clothes), just could be sold to the tt
so most of the mentors who mentor for cash would dissappear
and for the rest the ability to get something nice for their efforts would still be there

but there should be a reward, it is still a lot of time and even cash (at least the disciple spent alot), so there should be a gift for the disciple too
or a little exp bonus, maybe in Intelligence or so

 

[KapokWu]

One simplest remedy to the current situation would be the mailng system.
Disciple-mentor relation fails when communication ceases.

Voted No, since the mentoring is quite heavy and time-consuming
work if you really intend to HELP some persons through it. Some
can have a mentor and never need any help except first few days,
but the drop-rate is really high when accepting disciples blindly.
Succesfull mentor finds the "good" candidates and gets the drop-rate
down that way, but there is no way for any mentor to prevent
a disciple stopping playing EU.

I don't understand Alice's mentoring deed system.
How it prevents the disciple squeezing some more help
from the mentor?

There were also some rating systems presented in Alice's thread.
Abuse of them is still possible.

What about a series of missions or quests for both mentor and disciple?
There could be a spot where disciple has to kill a mob or produce
something, and mentor should stand in an observation post for not
to help him directly. Tis could open the way of some mentors "farming"
disciples (supporting them excessively to gain more mentorship skills).

What I mean is there should be some activity which forces the mentor
and disciple to co-operate time to time. Those moments would be
natural for mentor and disciple to communicate (and the ingame mail
facility would be nice too, disciple could have free mailing to the mentor).

 

[Alice]

for now i just had one disciple who tried to scam me, and one who wanted to beg
all others were satisfied with my mentoring and i think they would rated me good
the problem is that you have all ways of mentoring can be abused
if you try to have a rate system, ("give me 100 ped, else i rate you bad")
if you could kick the mentor all the time and be able to take a new one
("i give you 100 ped if you kick your mentor and take me")
if you could kick a mentor all the time (at99%:"give me 100 ped else i kick you")
thats why around 50% the kick ablitity should be gone, several disciples quitted at 50% already, so this is quite normal, and if the disciple want money then, you wouldn't lose that much if he kicks you

if you can kick a mentor just the 10% it is too easy for those who just accept mentors without knowing what it is

all the mentoring is based on loyalty and honesty, and that is why i think the 10% border to kick a mentor is too low, at 50% the mentor has done pretty much enough to show if he wants to help or not, and the disciple can see if the mentor deserved the gift or not
but the gift isn't the problem

 

[Kerham]

Yes, I had three disciples. Two of them graduated, one was a scammer who ran away with the-oh-so-valuable-starting-kit.

The gift is a nice thing, but the current system is bad. I prefer to not exist any item at all rather than receiving ep-17 bodyguard ME, which is more like an insult to my work as mentor.

I think MindArk should rethink the mentoring system, is THE thing which can improve the experience of newcomers, thus asuring an enlargement of player base without many expanses. Some method should be thought to remove those "professional gift seekers" with 20 disciples at a time. If you do proper mentoring, there's no chance to be able to handle more than 2 disciple at a time.

- one should be able to have maximum 1 disciple at a time
- if gifts remain, to be gifts worth the time
- mentoring skills should be regulated (I have 2 graduated and rank is 1..) and shown in avatar show-off on scaning
- mentoring should be an attribute, not a skill, so not chippeable
- each disciple should have the possibility of rating his/her mentor so influencing the rank
- both mentor and disciple should be able to kick reciprocal with no skill/time limit
- graduating conditions should be rethought
- mentor should have the possibility of creating a program for disciple, like "use this qty of ammo with this mandatory equipment". no program made by mentor in time X should render the disciple free from mentorship and mentor items automatic returned. in case of becoming free from mentorship this way, disciple should be able to get another mentor.
- graduating should depend on accomplishing these "quests"
- graduating should be conditioned by passing a "trivia"-type test forged by MindArk, regarding the ingame world
- graduating should be conditioned by getting al tp's ingame
- should be created a form of "team", with no loot sharing and stuff, only a form of "mentor to be together with disciple", with special chat tab, and graduating to be conditioned by time spent together
- disciple should have displayed the name of the mentor (at scan)
- items borrowed from mentor should have special status (like reserved items), so disciple can't trade them. except ammo/bombs/etc

And I have to work too, so I'll stop here the list

P.S.: any game developer is free to use these ideas, i consider them contribution to the hope that sometime a good game shall be made

 

[Kras]

Yes, I had three disciples. Two of them graduated, one was a scammer who ran away with the-oh-so-valuable-starting-kit

I am sure there are more factors, but your graduation record so far is surely connected to this;

If you do proper mentoring, there's no chance to be able to handle more than 2 disciple at a time.

Indeed, how can it be otherwise really and I don't know what MA is thinking to allow such seemingly huge numbers of disciples to be recruited for a single person.

It seems to create a situation where you could easily abandon a 'disciple' as a quitter if they were not as easy to talk with or active or whatever and move onto one of the others...and if they do quit, the mentor is the only voice we hear complaining of how they left so early on.

Yes - I know are other issues involved, but my concern is how many good people don't get beyond the jumpsuit because of poor mentors - and WE never hear from them and learn from them

One thing that has cropped up in this thread and others is the idea that there should be some form of log/record of mentor/disciple interaction. If this could be implemented, it would solve a lot of issues - based on I presume the % of time a disciple/mentor interact during their shared time online...

Thanks all so far for your votes and replies

 

[Kerham]

I am sure there are more factors, but your graduation record so far is surely connected to this

I had the disciples one at a time, never had 2 disciples at same time.

 

[Lykke]

I would. But then again, I also help people who are not my disciples - because I have a soft spot for people in orange

Anyway, I believe you have to be a high skilled mentor or extreemely lucky to get anything rare or even worth something! I just got crappy guns ... and honestly, with the work you do, it's nearly a joke which I can live without

 

[Nutarix]

Mentoring with out any gift, is like hunting on a VU day. If MindArk wishes
to make the players play ' PE drug dealers', why would they get a fair share
of the outcome ?

 

[Alice]

Yes, I had three disciples. Two of them graduated, one was a scammer who ran away with the-oh-so-valuable-starting-kit.

The gift is a nice thing, but the current system is bad. I prefer to not exist any item at all rather than receiving ep-17 bodyguard ME, which is more like an insult to my work as mentor.

I think MindArk should rethink the mentoring system, is THE thing which can improve the experience of newcomers, thus asuring an enlargement of player base without many expanses. Some method should be thought to remove those "professional gift seekers" with 20 disciples at a time. If you do proper mentoring, there's no chance to be able to handle more than 2 disciple at a time.

- one should be able to have maximum 1 disciple at a time
- if gifts remain, to be gifts worth the time
- mentoring skills should be regulated (I have 2 graduated and rank is 1..) and shown in avatar show-off on scaning
- mentoring should be an attribute, not a skill, so not chippeable
- each disciple should have the possibility of rating his/her mentor so influencing the rank
- both mentor and disciple should be able to kick reciprocal with no skill/time limit
- graduating conditions should be rethought
- mentor should have the possibility of creating a program for disciple, like "use this qty of ammo with this mandatory equipment". no program made by mentor in time X should render the disciple free from mentorship and mentor items automatic returned. in case of becoming free from mentorship this way, disciple should be able to get another mentor.
- graduating should depend on accomplishing these "quests"
- graduating should be conditioned by passing a "trivia"-type test forged by MindArk, regarding the ingame world
- graduating should be conditioned by getting al tp's ingame
- should be created a form of "team", with no loot sharing and stuff, only a form of "mentor to be together with disciple", with special chat tab, and graduating to be conditioned by time spent together
- disciple should have displayed the name of the mentor (at scan)
- items borrowed from mentor should have special status (like reserved items), so disciple can't trade them. except ammo/bombs/etc

i agree to most, just not to the be kickable all the time, and to be able to change the mentor:

the problem is that you have all ways of mentoring can be abused
if you try to have a rate system, ("give me 100 ped, else i rate you bad")
if you could kick the mentor all the time and be able to take a new one
("i give you 100 ped if you kick your mentor and take me")
if you could kick a mentor all the time (at99%:"give me 100 ped else i kick you")
thats why around 50% the kick ablitity should be gone, several disciples quitted at 50% already, so this is quite normal, and if the disciple want money then, you wouldn't lose that much if he kicks you

if you can kick a mentor just the 10% it is too easy for those who just accept mentors without knowing what it is

all the mentoring is based on loyalty and honesty, and that is why i think the 10% border to kick a mentor is too low, at 50% the mentor has done pretty much enough to show if he wants to help or not, and the disciple can see if the mentor deserved the gift or not
but the gift isn't the problem

if you would have other options, like you can kick your mentor all the time, unless he doesn't answer your questions etc. then ok
but else you would make the abuse much too easy for "professional" disciples, and mentors with alot of money, how could simply bribe your disciple to change the mentor

 

[nvcK]

No, I would mentor if it was the noob wo received the gift tho.

 

[Kras]

Anyway, I believe you have to be a high skilled mentor or extreemely lucky to get anything rare or even worth something! I just got crappy guns ... and honestly, with the work you do, it's nearly a joke which I can live without

Indeed - there is not even a balanced system of allocating gifts, so many good mentors are insulted, maybe even turned away from the process by this. Yet, I am sure there are cynical people who do get valuable gifts for little or nothing.

If there is a gift system it should be part of a long term proven record of good mentoring, maybe the mentor could get a decent item after a certain period of time and numbers of people helped - a long term reward for sustained commitment.

Another thing that springs to mind is the fact almost anyone can be a mentor - even after a short time ingame. This makes no sense at all - surely it is better to have people who have played a reasonable amount of time and will know the game far better. After all, being a mentor should be something avatars earn the right to become and also, to remain eligible for...