Info: Mindark Annual Report 2015

well if deposits are down and withdrawels are up and they made profit then i assume its due to the high tax refund. otherwise this doesnt really make sense. although they take a lot of money out of the game by introducing the adj maddox and ep41. and maybe they exclude compet deeds as well... the more deeds they hand out, the more lose they hand over to the players. MA gets their share due to selling price and if its just worth 50% of the initial price later on they dont have to care...
 
They say they're now paying less VAT and you are concluding from this TT return % will drop?
If there's a direct connection shouldn't it rise instead?

I must have understood the whole thing wrong, as from now on they pay more taxes and someone gotta pay for it. Need to wait for english version.
 
well if deposits are down and withdrawels are up and they made profit then i assume its due to the high tax refund. otherwise this doesnt really make sense. although they take a lot of money out of the game by introducing the adj maddox and ep41. and maybe they exclude compet deeds as well... the more deeds they hand out, the more lose they hand over to the players. MA gets their share due to selling price and if its just worth 50% of the initial price later on they dont have to care...

I would say bugger all, an exp bp IV clicker will go through that in under a minute.


Rgds

Ace

EDIT: i think you are confusing MU, that is player driven, MA see none of it.
 
I have never heard that a company had to pay VAT on deposit money;)

most have been a misstake....

or is it so that your money are not deposit and instead its a purchase of PED :eyecrazy:
 
I have never heard that a company had to pay VAT on deposit money;)

most have been a misstake....

or is it so that your money are not deposit and instead its a purchase of PED
Well no, looks like u got it backwards. The theory that you're pushing was a mistake, based on the wrong interpretation.
According to the annual report this mistake has been corrected. 8 mil has been paid back to MA as a result. From now on MA is paying VAT not from deposits but instead from the amount of peds used up inside game. As they should have done right from the start if there wasn't this erraneous interpretation forced upon them.

Blows your theory out of the water. BAM! :laugh:
 
Well no, looks like u got it backwards. The theory that you're pushing was a mistake, based on the wrong interpretation.
According to the annual report this mistake has been corrected. 8 mil has been paid back to MA as a result. From now on MA is paying VAT not from deposits but instead from the amount of peds used up inside game. As they should have done right from the start if there wasn't this erraneous interpretation forced upon them.

Blows your theory out of the water. BAM! :laugh:


haha Fifth - u still dont get it huh?

Momsplikt har också då uppstått vid insättningar och uttag. Bolaget har således betalat moms på nettoinsättningar. Med start 2015-01-01 byter MindArk intäktsmodell samt momsprincip och kommer hädanefter skuldföra nettoinsättningarna och bokföra intäkter allteftersom användarna förbrukar sina insatta medel. Då infaller även momsplikten.

VAT Duty has since arisen in deposits and withdrawals. The company has therefore paid the tax on net deposits. With start 2015-01-01 MindArk change the revenue model and VAT principle and will henceforth bring debt
net deposits and record revenues as users consume their deposits . Then falls even tax obligations.


They just change method - Before they paid VAT in advanced and now they paid when reimbursment.

BAM to you right back :)
 
What is VAT?

The Value Added Tax, or VAT, in the European Union is a general, broadly based consumption tax assessed on the value added to goods and services. It applies more or less to all goods and services that are bought and sold for use or consumption in the European Union. Thus, goods which are sold for export or services which are sold to customers abroad are normally not subject to VAT. Conversely imports are taxed to keep the system fair for EU producers so that they can compete on equal terms on the European market with suppliers situated outside the Union.

http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/taxation/vat/what_is_vat/index_en.htm

Faceof is Dynamic...:wtg:
Faceof...:cool:
 
In case some are confused, VAT is called GST (goods & services tax) or simply sales tax in other parts of the world. That it is charged on deposits means they interpret it as spent by the end consumer at the moment it is converted into PED. I've always treated it that way, but it must be hard to grasp for those who are still under the illusion this is an investment.
 
The way I interpret it is that previously they have treated deposits as an income and thus paid tax on deposits as if it was revenue. The revenue model is changed and they now treat deposits as a debt. Meaning the deposit itself will not be taxed. But as the user engages in an activity in game, the company takes a share of the cost (not how much you as a user lose, but the share that the company actually takes) and adds it to their revenue.

This is actually an income for the company and thus will be taxed as such.

I do not believe that this has any impact at all on the users experience as the "rake" that the house takes is unchanged.
 
In case some are confused, VAT is called GST (goods & services tax) or simply sales tax in other parts of the world. That it is charged on deposits means they interpret it as spent by the end consumer at the moment it is converted into PED. I've always treated it that way, but it must be hard to grasp for those who are still under the illusion this is an investment.

Except they're not paying it on deposits anymore but ped spent...
 
This is what they should have been doing all along...

Yup. It makes more sense to me to have been doing that all along as well. But it seems to indicate they got bad advise and couldn't but now they can.
 
well if deposits are down and withdrawels are up and they made profit then i assume its due to the high tax refund. otherwise this doesnt really make sense. although they take a lot of money out of the game by introducing the adj maddox and ep41. and maybe they exclude compet deeds as well... the more deeds they hand out, the more lose they hand over to the players. MA gets their share due to selling price and if its just worth 50% of the initial price later on they dont have to care...

To back up what I was saying just a little while ago, this makes a lot of sense really and it is very much true. When they refer to 'deposits' they are not including items bought off the Web Store. This as well could be why we are not seeing more high loot returns since MA is bypassing the system here. As the game system itself see it, the deposit are way down and because of this loot seems to be down as well. On top of all this, the system is seeing a LOT of gifts being given out by MA so this as well could have some effect. Items bought off the Web Store are given to us in game as 'gifts'.

Yes I know, many would like to point out that deposits has nothing to do with the overall return of the system, but sorry it does** **.
 
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The revenue model is changed and they now treat deposits as a debt.

I haven't grokked every bit yet and need to do a more thorough reading, but this looks actually interesting. It might mean they are trying to do something about the untenable withdrawal times. If this were to come true, it would be one of the most important steps i.m.o. to fit this game with an RCE actually worthy of the term. I would be more than happy to lose all this acquired negativity.
 
To back up what I was saying just a little while ago, this makes a lot of sense really and it is very much true. When they refer to 'deposits' they are not including items bought off the Web Store. This as well could be why we are not seeing more high loot returns since MA is bypassing the system here. As the game system itself see it, the deposit are way down and because of this loot seems to be down as well. On top of all this, the system is seeing a LOT of gifts being given out by MA so this as well could have some effect. Items bought off the Web Store are given to us in game as 'gifts'.

Yes I know, many would like to point out that deposits has nothing to do with the overall return of the system, but sorry it does** **.

It does if those peds deposited are cycled. But at rest, they do not. And buying universal ammo is same as depositing peds.. it just forces you to cycle them. Very simple. No need to go down conspiracy theories even though you're quite an expert at that.

My logs (and others) show quite the opposite to your assertion.
 
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It does if those peds deposited are cycled. But at rest, they do not. And buying universal ammo is same as depositing peds.. it just forces you to cycle them. Very simple. No need to go down conspiracy theories even though you're quite an expert at that.

Yes but you forgot that in order to cycle the PEDs we need new PEDs in system to cycle. As of this point the system is seeing an increase in over all PEDs cycled but no source of the PEDs so the system itself is slowing down.

Now I'm not saying this is bad. I just put up that red flag a while back when the Web Store did come out that we may see less loot return if MA didn't link the systems as one. So since they did show that we do have less deposit yet more withdraws I'm guessing that the two are not linked. Simply put, MA sees a profit, but the game system itself is seeing a big loss and has to adjust the overall system return.
 
No, you clearly don't understand how the loot works in this game and quite frankly I have no desire to explain it again for the 100th time.

Simply.. tt returns overall are fixed. It is not tied to deposits or any other bs... or whatever shady crap you think the Web Store does.. when it doesnt. That universal ammo, when cycled, is as good as peds in your ped card. The game is definitely not seeing a big loss.

Put up your logs and returns to back up your assertion.. I did and it is 100% counter to your assertion.
 
No, you clearly don't understand how the loot works in this game and quite frankly I have no desire to explain it again for the 100th time.

So what you are saying is that MA has zero safe guards put in place which could bleed the system of all PEDs? I do hear what you are saying but if this was true then MA would not have gone the way of the Web Store.

I told you a while back when they did bring out the Web Store that we may see some changes in loot returns. I had this feeling that MA was 'playing' the system here. Again not saying it is bad, but just a warning that if we put to much into the Web Store and not enough in deposits we would see an overall change in how much is returned in loot.
 
So what you are saying is that MA has zero safe guards put in place which could bleed the system of all PEDs? I do hear what you are saying but if this was true then MA would not have gone the way of the Web Store.

Im not like atomic, ill say for hundredth time: depo/withdrawal have nothing to do with loot. Loot is ava related but not in a 'personal lootpool' way. Safeguard is there: system wont give out more than x% of overall ped TURNED (x being 95 imo). And they gone to webstore to 'make' ppl to depo even if they have more peds already than they can do with :) Or u think linzey messi me or any other guy who profits would depo for peds? Na, we 'depoed' for boxes cause some pretty nasty shit can be found in them. I havent depoed in over 4 years before boxes, but since then im at 2.5k boxes bought
 
I believe that's the content of our pedcards, not some pile of money that sits in MA's pocket, so in fact it's quite the opposite - the money that could be requested for withdrawal any moment, not the money MA could pay withdrawals with.



The withdrawal process can't be shortened, because they certainly couldn't cover the 100 mil SEK with their cash of 4.8 mil, should the need arise.

So you think 5000 (counted high based on unique avatars globaling) sitting with an avarage of 24 000 ped on card.
Include all sweaters as you get 12000 ped on every single account thats active?

Oförbrukade användarmedel:
Oförbrukade användarmedel består av användarna insatta medel som varken är förbrukade eller
uttagna. Skulden var vid ingången av räkenskapsåret 124,2 miljoner PED vilket motsvarade vid
den tidpunkten cirka 97 miljoner SEK (växelkurs på 0,781 SEK/PED ). Under räkenskapsåret har
skulden minskat med cirka 1,7 miljoner PED till 122,5 miljoner PED vilket motsvarar med
bokslutsdagens växelkurs en skuld på 102,3 miljoner SEK (växelkurs på 0,835 SEK/PED).

De av användarna på balansdagen begärda, men ännu ej genomförda återbetalningarna från
Entropia Universe redovisas i balansräkningen under rubriken Upplupna kostnader. Reserverade
belopp framgår av not 22.

Unused user assest: consists of the users assest whos either used or withdrawn (My best guess pedcard is backed with with real money)
Even tho your ped card goes down and someone elses seem to go down this is NOT a zero sum game over the turnover there will allways be losses. Those losses decimate this pot of real money transforming it into revenue.

From Note 22 you can read MA got rougly 7 million sek pending in withdraws but from note 24 you can see 4 783 384 is all they have in solid cash.
Ive gotten commited withdraws after 31/12 2015 but without an pot it would be impposible cos MA would have been out of cash (2,3 million defecit, half years profit) long before even my withdraws was commited.

Meaning they have covered withdraws bigger then their cash and obviously the lights are still on at the office.
 
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Also, dont forget the amount amount of assets sitting on characters with a ped balance less than the minimum required 1000 ped for withdrawal. There could be a substantial amount of ped sitting on avatars who are actually unable to withdraw it.

Still needs to be accounted forthough
 
Well, this was an interesting report and a change in the income accounting principle, it should have been like this right from the start. But what stills confuse be a bit, is they say the unconsumed player-holdings will be a debt, but in the balance sheet it's still not a debt, but a contingent-liability. A bit confusing. :scratch2:

But of coerce, if they would have converted all the unconsumed peds they would make a 100 MSEK loss and the company would be worst to close down :silly2:

I also see they have bought shares in a company called "Rufoid AB". What I can see a company with Kim and an other Welter, I would guess a younger brother, in the leadership, to "develop computer games" . I wonder what that is?
 
I also see they have bought shares in a company called "Rufoid AB". What I can see a company with Kim and an other Welter, I would guess a younger brother, in the leadership, to "develop computer games" . I wonder what that is?

Nepotism :laugh:
 
Deposits are down 6.1%
Pending withdrawals are up from 4 284 077 to 5 754 541 (+34.3%)


For me this suggests a few things. Players have lost some confidence in the economics of the game. I didn't see an economist in the employee list? I would highly suggest MindArk employs one to manage the economy. A real cash economy requires that hunters, miners and crafters are able to make some profit in their chosen fields. Profit based on Market Value stability engenders further deposits and investment from players. Five to six years ago I would plough 15000Ped a week into this game. That Ped would be in a combination of item investments, ammo, crafting materials etc. I now would only put in 100Ped a week if I really really need something. This is now reflected in their report that deposits are down 6.1%. That should be a concern to them.

Secondly the withdrawals are up 34.3%! That suggests veteran players are over the following issues and are pulling Ped from the game;
1. Market stability and reduced profit availability. Why did the big crafters stop crafting???

2. Item investment confidence has plummeted, players can usually guarantee a 80% drop in value of any new item within a few weeks.

3. Lack of new content. MindArk has taken their eyes off the EU wheel to concentrate on Compet. As a result we see the same VUs every year, a couple of re-badged mayhem events, a migration, a robot invasion with no purpose, a few remodelled mobs, a couple of copy and paste iron missions.

4. The explosive projectiles. Much debate, but the HOF list still shows 95% are Explosive projectiles. Players buying zero MU nanocubes and putting them into a slot machine. It provides nothing to the economy. The only way this can be addressed is for a hugely increased random loot from Explosive projectiles. Players used to get a HOF from Simple Plastic Springs once every few months. Clearly the explosive projectiles algorithm has been tweaked to provide more HOFs. Revenue to MA from EP has been great, but not for the game.

The whole crux of all this discussion we have is the game was fun when you hunted specific mobs for loots to sell at MU, mined certain ores for MU and you could craft items that would cover your material costs. When more and more items have only 100% as their MU the TT machine gets fed more.

I can only plead with MA that if they want to see bigger profits, they need to make the economics of this game work. We need wealthy cartels, we need billionaire crafters, we need opportunities for players to find ways to profit. EU has never been a game for teenagers with no money, most players are employed in RL and have money to burn. It is a niche market for people with money. EU can never be a free game. I can design a phone app with one button called Explosive projectiles, pretty boring.

EU lasted for 13 years due to the RCE concept. We saw Mod Mercs worth 15000USD because they had stability and worth, confidence was there. I saw a Mod merc for sale at 9000USD recently. Why, because confidence has gone.

I ramble, but see great changes needed by the MA executive if they want to see profit in the future. I have been playing for over 7 years, MA needs to look after its customer base. We don't play for 6 months and give up, we are in for the long haul.
 
2. Item investment confidence has plummeted, players can usually guarantee a 80% drop in value of any new item within a few weeks.

Novelty effect. Early adopters even pay insane prices sometimes. It is quite unreasonable to assume that they wouldn't settle. What should MA do about it anyway? These are trades between players. Take DI, it costs a few hundred ped to get if you're at that stage already (and which is priced already in the resto chip, you can't charge twice), so this is where the price will go when all the hubbub dies down.

As for old items losing resale value, have they always traded at their peak or did the world exist before the first one forked out 15 grand for MM? Not going into the reasons why it climbed up there at all, it's been discussed exhaustingly. Why people keep falling for the idea that everything they invested in must be on a one-way road to the skies forever is the real question. Hint: It isn't even MA's fault unless you want to blame them for dangling the fruit in the first place.

People's total fixation on profit takes them to delusions sometimes. Maybe anybody can profit, but not everybody. For everybody who profits there must be one or several who consume. Some can seemingly do both and live in the middle of a supply chain, but there has to be this broad layer at the bottom that foots all the bills. It can't be any other way. Where are these consumers going to come from if the expectation of profit is all that draws people to the game? If those who wish to profit are not the least bit concerned with this, how do they expect to profit at all? MA can't fix people's shortsightedness. If anything, they can strive to not draw too many of the wrong ones through their advertisement choices.

Could say more if not for the ungodly hour here. Let's see where this goes first.
 
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Deposits down,withdrawals up, thats basically sums it all up :)

All that socialistic and keynesians economic ideas MA had last 2 years lead to this point. Withdrawals grew over 30% just in one year and there is no panic yet ingame. When I was writing about it and that decreasing prices are first sign of players liquidating their assets ingame i was laughed at. Same is with CLD price. As very liqud good it is used as buffer before making withdrawal which make it's proce drive up.

If this tendency keeps there will be nothing left to withdraw from world consisted only with CLD holders and EP clickers/gamblers. But this will not be the game anymore. MA even may do favor booth of them and liquidate all that server costly avatar/items/skils shit and left them simple smartfon app :p showing profit another years.

I ma exaggerating ofcourse, but I was shutting down 2 real life companies last 10 years and it is really not a problem to make them look profitable while agressively shrinking their activities. It is possible short term at cost and it's done to make "dead corp"look more fresh for selling purpose.
 
my hunting opinions that may or maynot be complaints, not that many care :)

although ark and caly and maybe soon RT have their reasons im sure, deeds probably are not that good for the ingame economy, it allows those who where very heavy top end cyclers to "retire" with income during their time off and when they come back for events they allow them the gear they need to place high or win outright.

the extreme volume and relatively easy to farm ELM edition weapons destroyed the majority of MU on looted L and a hand full of the crafted L weapons.

the extreme volume of UL armors (the viceroy and adj pixie/musca too) that came from ark and somewhat from RT and caly make L looted/crafted armors almost impossible to sell even if MU says it has a bit of it. anything under gremlin/viceroy should be removed from loot tables they feed the tt machine 99% of the time anyways.

the decreased deposits and increased withdrawals doesn't surprise me at all most who play cant adapt and wont they instead insist MA has it wrong and the loot sux and they get terrible tt returns on 30 ped hunts on prots or strait up dont play at all and continue to copy paste their complaints for years and years.

the need for top end gear for average play is reduced by rings and ESTarmor and pills; and in some cases trapping "techniques" without repercussion from MA despite when inquiring, MA claims "trapping in any way is an exploit and can result in loss of your account".

the major event reward/player category level system being removed/changed in recent years i think reduces or negated a lot of hard grinding from lowbies like me in major events. in my case i was willing to lose 10-20k in tt to win a reward i knew i could get. that is a thing of the past, i am completely uninterested, turned off and repelled to cycle hard in major events only to compete in point gimped level 1-4 instances, against titans that have better odds of better point loots in L5, despite having higher rate of kills in lower level instances.

ive said it before ill say it again we need ALOT more UL item drains similar to the armor plate/shroom faps mostly for higher end stuff that is not crafted.

simply put hardly anyone needs L gear these days so now it has no MU and everybody hates that. but also they want more UL stuff at tt. you cant have both you need to pick 1. the way it is now imo is in MAs best interests, not the players economy. when the peds that can be withdrawn have been withdrawn the % in the coming years reports for withdraws will come way down if things stay the way they are.

i do not however claim that there is no more MU its simply changed from the 2010-2013 norms. those who refuse to realize this and refuse to adapt and refuse risk to find where the MU has gone will continue to whine thats its gone and the game sux and will one day submit for a withdraw if they can afford to and leave with bitter tastes in their mouths and nothing but nasty things to say about EU and MA for years and years.

ive come to learn with younger generations, they want everything on a silver platter for free topped with undue complements and non-earned respect. im ashamed of my own generation and fear for the ones to come.

the "have nots" will always want what the "haves" worked hard for; but wont or cant to put in the effort or the risk or the investment. they will remain "have nots".




glad thats off my chest :D take it with a pinch of salt!
 
I dont undestand tho how this new income-modell are gonna work tho?

I guessing the convinced the Tax office that they are selling "giftcards" which they then dont have to pay VAT at the purchasing moment.

But at the same time how could the Tax office controll that peds have been spent?

MA could just create an avatar and tank it up with the same amounth of peds that are spend by other players so by the looks of it, no peds ingame have been used up and not VAT has to be payed?

And yes - Mindark can create as much peds they want to ingame if someone wouldnt believe it :)
 
I dont undestand tho how this new income-modell are gonna work tho?

I guessing the convinced the Tax office that they are selling "giftcards" which they then dont have to pay VAT at the purchasing moment.

But at the same time how could the Tax office controll that peds have been spent?

MA could just create an avatar and tank it up with the same amounth of peds that are spend by other players so by the looks of it, no peds ingame have been used up and not VAT has to be payed?

And yes - Mindark can create as much peds they want to ingame if someone wouldnt believe it :)


Well, if MA pretend that the players have not spent any peds they will not have any income either and the company would be forced to close down because of lack of equate :silly2: The tax office can pick up the annual report and say, hm... "you had 50MSEK in income, but only X MSEK in VAT sales? Why is that??"

Also they have an accountant/auditor that do a review of it. All this change and reclaim of VAT thing is something their auditor PwC have done for them and also took a fee of 152 200 Sek for their work.
 
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