Mining? What? (Guide For The Common Guy)

[MaxArfPower]

i dont know, but every so often when i get a skill up i know theres more claims in the area so i would carpet bomb, and find stuff. when i get no skill ups, and carpet bomb, i get nothing for the most part. that is how i started to corelate skillups to claims. i dont know, that methodology works for me for the most part. wether it works for other people or not. i tend to break even more doing that with the skill ups. just like you say amps arnt good, other people live by them. i think its the eye of the beholder on this one.

 

[chevrons]

If you simplify the math down to basic 50/50 odds (obviously it's not but for sake of example lets use that), you have a 50:50 chance of profiting or losing on ores in a trip, likewise in energy.

If you just mine ores you have a 50% chance of losing.
If you just mine energy you have a 50% chance of losing.
If you mine both, you only have a 25% chance of losing.

Losing being defined as not getting a return above TT spent, and winning being getting HoF or something that yields TT above spent in returns. Obviously it's not a 50% chance, but to simplify things in the example we used that.

If you mine both you have TWICE the odds of getting that HoF or big find that puts you over your TT spent, and into the winning category.

I'm truly astonished that you can put forward something which is so obviously wrong.

 

[raeky]

I'm truly astonished that you can put forward something which is so obviously wrong.

explain how you have twice the chance of getting a HoF if you mine both is wrong?

 

[chevrons]

If you flip a coin 10 times, your chance of Heads is 50%.

If you flip one coin 5 times, then a different coin 5 times, your chance of Heads is still 50%, not 75%.

Basic Probability Theory.

Your post certainly deserves Sticky status, where everyone can read it, but in the all-time list of greatest misconceptions.


And in the context of EU, you are doubly wrong, because the chances of success rise as your skills rise, and by splitting your skill rises in two, mining both Enmatter and Ore actually reduces the chances of success in either, as I've already explained.

 

[raeky]

If you flip a coin 10 times, your chance of Heads is 50%.

If you flip one coin 5 times, then a different coin 5 times, your chance of Heads is still 50%, not 75%.

Basic Probability Theory.

Your post certainly deserves Sticky status, where everyone can read it, but in the all-time list of greatest misconceptions.


And in the context of EU, you are doubly wrong, because the chances of success rise as your skills rise, and by splitting your skill rises in two, mining both Enmatter and Ore actually reduces the chances of success in either, as I've already explained.

Your making several assumptions here, that ore and energy are linked to the same loot "pool" and that a bomb and probe have exact same chances of HoFing at any given instance.

Also maybe in ancient times of PE was skill level conditional of odds of hofing, now a days how often do you see mega ATH's from noobs on noob mobs? Now a days anyone can get a ATH, prove that wrong?

I theorize that a particular resource (or mob if you will) has a higher chance of HoFing then others at any given moment. By limiting yourself to only one half of the types of resources your rolling the dice with (just ore for example) your cutting the odds of getting a HoF in half. Show me how thats wrong? I thought it was generally accepted that some mobs are "hot" while others are "cold" at any given time?

I think your basing your ideas on data and theories formulated long ago before the systems changed to not favor elites.

I believe skills, in mining, only affects which tools you can use, which affects which resources available too you. (keeping in mind low-level ores like Lyst have the GREATEST chance of being an ATH then high level RARE ores). I believe your skill has NOTHING to do with getting a HOF, that anyone at any moment could get one, provided they rolled the right magic number on the right mob/resource.

I also believe that in context of hunting, that skill again doesn't affect your loot, only the economics of your weapons (higher average damage from your weapon per shot, making them more economical).

I don't get where your saying "splitting your skills between ore and energy limits your income." Thats BS. I think your just trying to justify your choices.

 

[Xandra]

Hi,

I don't get where your saying "splitting your skills between ore and energy limits your income."

One justification that would come to my mind:
The combined sum of skills in 1 profession would enable you to enjoy better finders, deeper claims and thus maybe higher markups earlier. With splitting (which I do too, btw. ;-) ) you effectively double the skilling time until you're able to go for the juicy ones.
Another idea:
Isn't it rather difficult/ slowly to do bombing/ probing at the same time, if you're "spacing" or "carpet bombing"? It's no problem at all if you're follower of the "pure random theory" like me, but I could imagine dropping both could be a hard task for our "vein ppl" - stopping any other step not to run too far, walking, or running the same way twice?

I believe skills, in mining, only affects which tools you can use, which affects which resources available too you. (keeping in mind low-level ores like Lyst have the GREATEST chance of being an ATH then high level RARE ores). I believe your skill has NOTHING to do with getting a HOF, that anyone at any moment could get one, provided they rolled the right magic number on the right mob/resource.

I also believe that in context of hunting, that skill again doesn't affect your loot, only the economics of your weapons (higher average damage from your weapon per shot, making them more economical).

Signed, Xandra ;-)

Have fun!

 

[raeky]

My guide advocates random, not veins or other crazy spiraling pattern of the moon run twice east once west jump four times and sit down method. I don't find mining both is much of a hindrance..

 

[Mayday]

For all people who see patterns in mining:

WHY ARENT U ALL IN SHADOW IF U KNOW HOW MINING WORKS!??

 

[Netaquel]

Theory...

Raeky is not in shadow becouse hi just have theory... Everyone have theory. And he probably want clear one. Good and why not ? Randomity is in EU for sure and maybe it is the only thing which matter ? And possible that skill-gain-theory is true but system is so complex that look like pure random ? So raeky hipothesis can be closest to how effectively system work. In such way work RL deep space discovering

I still prefer to belive skillgains means something - not get to much mining globals without skillgains... But everytime i gain something i think two things 1. it can mean something; 2. it can mean nothing. Just look and see. But followowing skill gains gives me a lot of fun and do not observe negative effects of it.

But I am open to any proofs, evidences, opinions, etc

Net

PS. I do not know, maybe raeky is in shadow ?

 

[Akoz]

Great post Raeky. +rep

I disagree with your carpet mining tactic though.

For effective carpet mining without overlap you should shift each row 55 metres and then put them a bit closer so you get this:

You can then have 102 metres between each row without overlapping (but you must maintain 110 m in each row)

I also agree with chevrons view on the ore+enmatter probability, although I think what you are really saying is that you think they are actually linked, no?

 

[chevrons]

Your making several assumptions here, that ore and energy are linked to the same loot "pool" and that a bomb and probe have exact same chances of HoFing at any given instance.

The question of Loot Pools is irrelevant, but we both agree with the second assumption. This is what you say

Reasoning is that I 100% believe both systems are completely separate

I theorize that a particular resource (or mob if you will) has a higher chance of HoFing then others at any given moment. By limiting yourself to only one half of the types of resources your rolling the dice with (just ore for example) your cutting the odds of getting a HoF in half. Show me how thats wrong? I thought it was generally accepted that some mobs are "hot" while others are "cold" at any given time?

The difference between us is that I know that when you have two independent systems which both have their own random patterns, there is no correlation between them, and it does not improve your chances if you swap from the one which is going through a bad sequence, to the other, as opposed to simply moving area.

To believe otherwise, as you do, means you simply don't understand the mathematics.

I don't get where your saying "splitting your skills between ore and energy limits your income." Thats BS. I think your just trying to justify your choices.

Well this is the foundation of the skill system in Entropia, which favours specialisation, and if you don't get it, that's really your problem, except that people who read guides deserve accuracy.

 

[raeky]

Great post Raeky. +rep

I disagree with your carpet mining tactic though.

For effective carpet mining without overlap you should shift each row 55 metres and then put them a bit closer so you get this:

You can then have 102 metres between each row without overlapping (but you must maintain 110 m in each row)

I also agree with chevrons view on the ore+enmatter probability, although I think what you are really saying is that you think they are actually linked, no?

I do agree thats the most effective way to carpet bomb, I just didn't make my post very in-depth in those methods for simplicity sake, I'll look into it.

And what I mean by ore+matter is that they're NOT linked, as in mining an area for ore doesn't effect the probability of that area of producing for matter at the same time, so you can mine both as effectively as one or the other.

I also mean that each resource is like a type of mob, and one may be "hot" which might HoF soon, and by limiting yourself to just ore your cutting the odds of hitting that "hot" ore/mob and getting that HoF. Thats what I believe (deposits/ore=mobs in their internal mechanics).

Also in respect to "splitting your skill gains," I'd like to throw out there that your NOT in fact splitting them. Provided that your a depositor then by mining BOTH your not getting LESS skills in prospecting if you was doing that alone, your getting the SAME amount in prospecting and surveying. If your a depositing player then the amount of probes/bombs you take on a trip isn't limited by your available funds but by the amount of time you have to play. Since from personal experience mining both doesn't DRASTICLY increase the amount of time it takes to make a run, I postulate that if you did just one you'd still be out mining (most likely) the same about of bombs you took if you took both bombs and probes.

So the theory your "splitting your skill gains" is flawed.

 

[raeky]

stuff

I've already given you my ideas and theories, so as far as I'm concerned me responding to you (acting as a troll) is done. Good day sir.

 

[MaxArfPower]

*grabs the popcorn*

 

[Thorn]

Nice guide! It pretty much goes with what I have found. +rep

 

[chevrons]

Also in respect to "splitting your skill gains," I'd like to throw out there that your NOT in fact splitting them. Provided that your a depositor then by mining BOTH your not getting LESS skills in prospecting if you was doing that alone, your getting the SAME amount in prospecting and surveying. If your a depositing player then the amount of probes/bombs you take on a trip isn't limited by your available funds but by the amount of time you have to play. Since from personal experience mining both doesn't DRASTICLY increase the amount of time it takes to make a run, I postulate that if you did just one you'd still be out mining (most likely) the same about of bombs you took if you took both bombs and probes.

So the theory your "splitting your skill gains" is flawed.

That's a good point, time is an important factor, but maybe you don't use an amp. I use an OA-102, and I am usually at my weight limit after 100 bombs, so I couldn't also use 100 probes even if I wanted to.

So since I believe using amps saves even more time (and is at worst financially neutral), this argument may be valid for a noob miner, but it falls away the more skilled you become (and therefore use bigger amps), leaving you with low-level skills in the other type you now don't have time to use.


I've dropped 35k bombs over 18 months, and I've still only reached Level 23 Prospector. I've chosen to spend the other part of my time hunting. In Ped terms, mining has been profitable (about +5k Ped), hunting hasn't (despite a 9.6k Hof), though if skill value is included I am also in profit hunting. So I'd say, if anyone wants to play a lot, and only mine, then by all means do both Ore and Enmatter, but if you have limited time, or want to combine professions, I've made my arguments why you should choose one or the other.

 

[raeky]

bumpity bump bump

 

[Tracer-Bullet]

Fantastic guide, a good read for even an amateur miner.

~Tracer

 

[raeky]

bump!

 

[Shoe]

Great post Raeky. +rep

I disagree with your carpet mining tactic though.

For effective carpet mining without overlap you should shift each row 55 metres and then put them a bit closer so you get this:

You can then have 102 metres between each row without overlapping (but you must maintain 110 m in each row)

I also agree with chevrons view on the ore+enmatter probability, although I think what you are really saying is that you think they are actually linked, no?

1. Excellent guide by Raeky. Based on statistics and I totally agree with everything..

2. I dont see why 102 meters... according to Pythagoras a^2+b^2=c^2,
making a triangle should give 55^2+distance between rows^2=110^2
gives distance between rows= (squareroot of 3)xbombradius
~1.72x55 ~95 meters, not 102...

 

[R4tt3xx]

Resource sites are chains not individual blips on the radar, its a single line that has been molded into different shapes. The sites have flow and move with each other.

 

[raeky]

Resource sites are chains not individual blips on the radar, its a single line that has been molded into different shapes. The sites have flow and move with each other.

What about spirals and triangles?

 

[Sofia]

Resource sites are chains not individual blips on the radar, its a single line that has been molded into different shapes. The sites have flow and move with each other.

Hmm... molded like this?

[YOUTUBE]6BCXMq4B8VU[/YOUTUBE]

 

[Tricity]

burn! burn! ofc perception skillgain means a lot
im even thinking about establishing the church of perceptius

 

[trikky]

burn! burn! ofc perception skillgain means a lot
im even thinking about establishing the church of perceptius

and Intelligence gains?

 

[Sofia]

and Intelligence gains?

What doesn't kill you makes you smarter.