Info: Mob Level and Skill Gain

[Hijacker27]

Because Xen, what you are basically saying i that a L4 mob gives 3 times as much skills as a L1 mob per se.

If you think about it for just an moment you realize that this is not true and never was true. Everyone who ever tested skill gains in an even remotely "scientific"* manner knows it isn't.

How much more skills would a level 12 mob give then? Again 3 times as much as the level 4, 12 times as much as the level1? Even if not linear, we would know that. Quite some people test skill gains all the time.

Why does Daspletor give only 60% of the skill volume compared to say Argonaut then? They sure do have an higher mob level. Lack of kill bonus due to high HP accounts for most of that, but if what you claim would be true then the massive higher level (if linear or whatever) should more then make up for it, it doesn't.

Or another example, find another L4 mob with least HP possible and see if you will ever get the same volume then from Carabok. You won't.

So unless you stick with the claim (and i really doubt you will) that a level 4 mob per se gives 3 times as much skill volume then a level 1 mob, you have proven with your test one thing: That Carabok had an "skill bonus" attached (one of the biggest i have ever seen tho) by MA, like they did in the past with other mobs at times (even if you think it is a myth).

* As in testing skill TT volume gained per x amount of active damage costs.

Edit: Just to be clear, i am not saying there is no connection whatsoever between mob level and skill gain. I am saying Carabok is the worst example you could have come up with to substantiate your claim.

Lets think about this a sec. Say daspletor is level 90 with say 7000 hp. You have a carabok with level 10 and 10 hp. It takes 700 times as much PED to kill a daspletor, but only gives 9x as much per kill. You don't get 90x as much skill per PED spent on the daspletor, you get 9/700 as much skill, or 1.2%

 

[Xen]

Because Xen, what you are basically saying i that a L4 mob gives 3 times as much skills as a L1 mob per se.

If you think about it for just an moment you realize that this is not true and never was true. Everyone who ever tested skill gains in an even remotely "scientific"* manner knows it isn't.

How much more skills would a level 12 mob give then? Again 3 times as much as the level 4, 12 times as much as the level1? Even if not linear, we would know that. Quite some people test skill gains all the time.

Why does Daspletor give only 60% of the skill volume compared to say Argonaut then? They sure do have an higher mob level. Lack of kill bonus due to high HP accounts for most of that, but if what you claim would be true then the massive higher level (if linear or whatever) should more then make up for it, it doesn't.

Or another example, find another L4 mob with least HP possible and see if you will ever get the same volume then from Carabok. You won't.

So unless you stick with the claim (and i really doubt you will) that a level 4 mob per se gives 3 times as much skill volume then a level 1 mob, you have proven with your test one thing: That Carabok had an "skill bonus" attached (one of the biggest i have ever seen tho) by MA, like they did in the past with other mobs at times (even if you think it is a myth).

* As in testing skill TT volume gained per x amount of active damage costs.

Edit: Just to be clear, i am not saying there is no connection whatsoever between mob level and skill gain. I am saying Carabok is the worst example you could have come up with to substantiate your claim.

First, I did not anywhere say it was linear. I won't "stick with this claim" because I never made that claim. Sorry if what I said seemed misleading to you. I said in this case there is about 3X the skill gain, meaning a big, obvious difference. This does not mean you will get 3X the skill gain from a level 12 mob or whatever (you can't find a level 12 mob with 10 hp now). The argument remains, higher mob level (with same everything else) means more skill gain.

Kind of irrelevant given my clarification, but your Daspletor example is likely due to kill bonuses. Kill bonuses have always (or for a long time) been large in relation to skills gained while killing the mob, which I'm sure you know.

If you can find me another mob that is level 4 with 10 hp I'll test them as an alternative to carabok (if the spawn allows reasonable testing). Or, there is nothing stopping anyone from testing themselves. I don't believe mobs are given special skill giving abilities. Everyone used to think tantillion gave extra skill. At the same time I was getting the same skill gains blowing up merps... If someone can produce test results of the same level mobs of near equal cost to kill giving significantly different skill gains, I'll change my belief.

If anyone doesn't like my test, do your own. Just make sure you've eliminated variables such as unequal number of kill bonuses and stuff like that which would make the test invalid.

 

[Jimmy B]

To sum it up: This thread, while showing that Carabok gives more skills than Calypso punies, proves nothing.

I have some information sent to me by PM, suggesting if you go to Camp Icarus there are (or used to be) a variety of Punies with the same HP but varying mob level from 1 to 3, and that L3 ones give significantly more skill than L1 ones. And that you get way more green lines from L3 killshots than L1 killshots.

I haven't verified it myself, but I see no reason for the guy to lie about something that is fairly easily tested.

Am I correct in thinking the higher the level of the mob the more skills I'll gain by hunting it? If true this would make more sense than the old system and gives more purpose to hunting the biggest mob you can and hence a reason to skill up and hunt big...

No. What appears to be the case is that if you had a Hogglo Young L10 and a Hogglo Young L20, you'd get more skill from the L20.

It seems to at least some extent that high regen mobs used to give more skill per spend than non-regen mobs. Certainly I noticed that on Eviscerator. I think it was you who told me you saw the same thing on Kreltin? And also, high regen mobs seemed to have inflated mob level (ie. they were easier than low-regen mobs that had the same mob level). I've not had time to test it at all yet, but it'd be interesting to see if since having their L number reduced if these mobs now produce more 'normal' levels of skill gain. I think they probably will.

Why does Daspletor give only 60% of the skill volume compared to say Argonaut then? They sure do have an higher mob level. Lack of kill bonus due to high HP accounts for most of that, but if what you claim would be true then the massive higher level (if linear or whatever) should more then make up for it, it doesn't.

----

Edit: Just to be clear, i am not saying there is no connection whatsoever between mob level and skill gain. I am saying Carabok is the worst example you could have come up with to substantiate your claim.

I think the theory is more that if you have two mobs with the same HP, and different L number, the one with higher L number will give you more skill.

The suggestion I've seen is that the L number determines the amount of killshot skill gain. That would be consistent with the Carabok and Puny experiments, without being voided by your Dasp results.

 

[Xen]

Your argument is:
- Carabok has L4 and Caly Puny has L1.
- Carabok gives more skills than Caly Puny.
- Therefore, a higher L means a higher skill gain rate.

That is not the entirety of the argument. I eliminated virtually all other variables, except for stuff like the forever unproven belief that some mobs just give more skill.

In the same way, someone else could argue:
- Carabok has faster regeneration and attack speed than a Caly Puny.
- Carabok gives more skills than Caly Puny.
- Therefore, a mob with faster regeneration and attack speed gives more skills.

Attributes like you mentioned determine the mob level. This was obvious when all higher regen mobs previously had a higher mob level/health ratio. Also, any time MA or a PP made adjustments to mobs, like health of Yuka young for example, the level changed. This was extremely unlikely to have been coded manually. Furthermore, none of the attributes of carabok changed with the VU, yet several people reported a 50% decrease in skill gain. It's because of the mob level, nothing else changed (at least nothing has been reported and I didn't see any other change). The formula to determine and change the mob level was changed (regen has less influence).

 

[Ludvig|MindArk]

Furthermore, none of the attributes of carabok changed with the VU, yet several people reported a 50% decrease in skill gain. It's because of the mob level, nothing else changed (at least nothing has been reported and I didn't see any other change).

Yes, that is a possible conclusion of what has happened... I am simply saying that it is also possible that the L number and the skill gain rate on Carabok were adjusted seperately (since Carabok used to give a ridiculus amount of skill per PED cycled on them).

 

[Theren Strange]

Kill skill.

 

[ForrestPark]

Will post later in the week

I will post properly later in the week on how all this works, in some detail. I just need a quiet afternoon at work to write it up!

The truth is that just about everyone who has posted on this thread is correct to some extent. Yes, of course there is a definite relationship between mob level and skill gain - that is utterly beyond doubt - but at higher mob levels this relationship becomes heavily diluted and at very high mob levels it is almost irrelevant.

I just need to confirm one more theory first before I can do a big post with everything I know.

In the meantime, please don't kill the messenger who has bothered to actually post some test results!

Forrest

 

[Leona]

First, I did not anywhere say it was linear.

And i did not assume you did, i was trying to make an point (exaggerated, with question marks for a good reason). But if an level 4 mob per se gives 3 times as much skill volume then an level 1 mob (your claim) then what is the correlation between mob level an skill gain?

If your assumption is true you could easy support your claim by any other test not involving Caraboks.

I won't "stick with this claim" because I never made that claim.

You made the claim that a level 4 mob per se gives 3 times more skills then a level 1 mob. That claim i doubt will hold. Thats what i was referring too, not the linear thing.

I don't believe mobs are given special skill giving abilities.

MindArk played with that even long before we got mob levels. They even turned it off over night on molisk when they realized that 200% base skill gains on them combined with the ongoing skill event at that time was a bit too much. But it was fast knife skilling for the two days it lasted.

 

[Xen]

Leona, I'll try to think of another test I can do that might help clear up some doubts.

I don't know that I should be test slave though, other people can do these tests...

 

[Xen]

MindArk played with that even long before we got mob levels. They even turned it off over night on molisk when they realized that 200% base skill gains on them combined with the ongoing skill event at that time was a bit too much. But it was fast knife skilling for the two days it lasted.

Possible, but I believe mobs had "mob levels" before we could see them (can't prove that obviously). Was this after molisk were given high regen? If so, they would give more skill with the higher regen rate increasing their "mob level". Either way, this is really a conversation about how things work now and relatively recently. I don't believe two equal mobs could give very different skill gains now, but that's yet another test.

 

[Jimmy B]

You made the claim that a level 4 mob per se gives 3 times more skills then a level 1 mob. That claim i doubt will hold. Thats what i was referring too, not the linear thing.

From what I've read or been told, I think it's plausible that all 10 HP L4 mobs will give 3 times more skill than 10 HP L1 mobs. I doubt it would be true for 1000 HP L4 mobs and 1000 HP L1 mobs (if they could exist), although you would still get more skill from the L4 one.

 

[Leona]

I think the theory is more that if you have two mobs with the same HP, and different L number, the one with higher L number will give you more skill.

The suggestion I've seen is that the L number determines the amount of killshot skill gain. That would be consistent with the Carabok and Puny experiments, without being voided by your Dasp results.

I am totally open for that theory, if someone can prove a connection. I am just saying that a 300% skill gain just because the one mob has 3 more level (even at low level) goes against everything i have ever seen in my own tests.

That said i stopped doing skill gain tests quite a while ago for some reasons and am happy to learn if things have changed. But if everything i hear (not only this thread) involves Caraboks and if no one can reproduce such a massive difference on other low level mobs with 3 levels difference, whats the logical conclusion..?

 

[fluske]

Possible, but I believe mobs had "mob levels" before we could see them (can't prove that obviously). Was this after molisk were given high regen? If so, they would give more skill with the higher regen rate increasing their "mob level". Either way, this is really a conversation about how things work now and relatively recently. I don't believe two equal mobs could give very different skill gains now, but that's yet another test.

i bumped into leona at the same spot doing molisks( west of zeus across the river),we both had tracked skilgains on them and they were way higher then other comparable mobs,and indeed it didnt last very long,
it was a couple years ago so i reckon it was before they became high regen

 

[Hijacker27]

I am totally open for that theory, if someone can prove a connection. I am just saying that a 300% skill gain just because the one mob has 3 more level (even at low level) goes against everything i have ever seen in my own tests.

That said i stopped doing skill gain tests quite a while ago for some reasons and am happy to learn if things have changed. But if everything i hear (not only this thread) involves Caraboks and if no one can reproduce such a massive difference on other low level mobs with 3 levels difference, whats the logical conclusion..?

Its such a massive difference because level 4 is 4x higher than level 1.. The difference between level 40 and 45 isn't going to be as big, and won't even be noticable without very detailed statistics.

 

[Leona]

From what I've read or been told, I think it's plausible that all 10 HP L4 mobs will give 3 times more skill than 10 HP L1 mobs. I doubt it would be true for 1000 HP L4 mobs and 1000 HP L1 mobs (if they could exist), although you would still get more skill from the L4 one.

I have some information sent to me by PM, suggesting if you go to Camp Icarus there are (or used to be) a variety of Punies with the same HP but varying mob level from 1 to 3, and that L3 ones give significantly more skill than L1 ones. And that you get way more green lines from L3 killshots than L1 killshots.

I haven't verified it myself, but I see no reason for the guy to lie about something that is fairly easily tested.

If that has actually been tested as in skill TT volume gained per x amount of damage turnover, then it gets interesting. Sounds a bit like "judged by green lines" tho.

 

[Leona]

Its such a massive difference because level 4 is 4x higher than level 1.. The difference between level 40 and 45 isn't going to be as big, and won't even be noticable without very detailed statistics.

Hijacker, i get that. I got it all the time. I was merely trying to make an point by exaggerating.

My point is, if such a rather distinct connection between mob level and skill gain exists we would have noticed in the past. But in practice a large range of in example mid level mobs always gave about 1% of turnover (actually it was damage dealt not TT spent, but assuming same/ reasonable eco it was stable).

And those mobs had vast difference in level, say mid level argos against big scips (difference ofc in defense gains but not in attack skills). Of course, something could have changed meanwhile.

 

[Leona]

Leona, I'll try to think of another test I can do that might help clear up some doubts.

I don't know that I should be test slave though, other people can do these tests...

Yes, i understand. Maybe we can get some data from people who do / did mobs with different levels but not so different HP. I mean, if i am wrong then say comparing level 4 to level 8 mobs should still show very noticeable differences (i still doubt it tho ).

 

[Hijacker27]

Hijacker, i get that. I got it all the time. I was merely trying to make an point by exaggerating.

My point is, if such a rather distinct connection between mob level and skill gain exists we would have noticed in the past. But in practice a large range of in example mid level mobs always gave about 1% of turnover (actually it was damage dealt not TT spent, but assuming same/ reasonable eco it was stable).

And those mobs had vast difference in level, say mid level argos against big scips (difference ofc in defense gains but not in attack skills). Of course, something could have changed meanwhile.

Scip youngs - 1070 hp level 31 (at least before, don't know new level now) 0.029 levels/hp
Argo youngs - 300 hp level 7 (same thing) 0.23 levels/hp

As you can see, the level to hp ratio is similar, hence the similar skill gains.

 

[Xen]

Yes, i understand. Maybe we can get some data from people who do / did mobs with different levels but not so different HP. I mean, if i am wrong then say comparing level 4 to level 8 mobs should still show very noticeable differences (i still doubt it tho ).

I am on my way to test a mob other than Carabok to compare to the Calypso Punies.

 

[Dollymaus]

My point is, if such a rather distinct connection between mob level and skill gain exists we would have noticed in the past.

Hm maybe it was just me who killed tons of level 37-ambulimax young because of the good Skillgains ?

Seems the same with those carabok-hunters or Tantillion which had high levels too...

I think most people never really asked if theese high levels are the reason for good skillgains, they just noticed good skillgains and used that

 

[Akbar]

I checked my archives :

2012-01-25, Level 42 Electrokinetic Dmg


2012-02-02, Level 52 Electrokinetic Dmg
7 days later, after a crazy hardcore skilling period.


I unlocked Mindforce harmony




Yeah, Possessed RT zombies were fantastic,
I stood there a good while...
But I only shared this info with Hijacker & Fronske later (and nobody else).
As some people think they know everything better all the time...

 

[Jimmy B]

Maybe we should come up with some good things to test.

Corn Young (150HP) and Corn Mature (180 HP) are now both L4 if the wiki updater is right. They might provide an nice comparison with 10 HP Carabok L4, and the Punies.

Faucervix Young (100 HP) is L5. So according to the theory, these should definitely be better than the Corns.

Merp Young (50 HP) is also L5, so should be even better.

I'd like to find something interesting to test that has some decent HP. If anyone spots something like a 1000 HP L20 mob and a 1000 HP L30 mob, let me know and I'll happily do some testing whilst hunting. Yes, the differences will be smaller, but I can gather a much bigger data set before death by boredom/RSI sets in.

And those mobs had vast difference in level, say mid level argos against big scips (difference ofc in defense gains but not in attack skills). Of course, something could have changed meanwhile.

Hm maybe it was just me who killed tons of level 37-ambulimax young because of the good Skillgains ?

Seems the same with those carabok-hunters or Tantillion which had high levels too...

I think most people never really asked if theese high levels are the reason for good skillgains, they just noticed good skillgains and used that

I found similar with Evis, although it wasn't a particularly rigourous test:

When I started the log I was convinced I got better skill gains from using Arkadia guns than from Calypso guns, so I tracked pro-level gains per spend to see if there was anything in it. It quickly became apparent there wasn't. I tried a spell with Hunnirs and Jzar to see if they significantly increased gains. They did a bit, but it was pretty small. None of this was done with great rigour, but the standout result for me was the variation in skill-gains from mob to mob. Of the mobs I hunted a decent amount, Eviscerators were the best for pro-level gain (3.2% per kPED). Small Argos were next best (2.8% per kPED). Atrox and Formi/Scips were both significantly worse (around 2.1% per kPED). Certainly worthy of further investigation.

 

[Akbar]

And...

I compared for the same kind of hunting run,
like 100peds with a cryo chip, or a handgun, whatever...

A run on merps was giving 2.5 (250%) more on the profession level than the same hunt on argo.
I did this test with the same result many times.

At least you could check if the results are the same now...

 

[remontoire]

Or another example, find another L4 mob with least HP possible and see if you will ever get the same volume then from Carabok. You won't.

I did 100 hp L4 vs L5 mob test (foul young) in another thread, I may as well do Oro, L4 mob with 50 hp as a comparison.

 

[remontoire]

And...

I compared for the same kind of hunting run,
like 100peds with a cryo chip, or a handgun, whatever...

A run on merps was giving 2.5 (250%) more on the profession level than the same hunt on argo.
I did this test with the same result many times.

At least you could check if the results are the same now...

Any reason to think this was not purely kill bonus related difference? Far more kills on the merp.

 

[sostoned]

finally its going somewhere.

Thanks for making a new thread.

This research proves a link in skillgain and moblevel.

i can confirm that caraboks did have less attack power. was 2-4 or so before nerf and 1-2 after

they have less regen. Thats very noticable

They hit less.

so level number is not a direct number to skillgain but says a lot about the stats of a mob.

The most logical is that the stats are changed (doesnt have to be the scannable stats but would be interesting to see scans before and after).

Its very logical that the Level number is a product of variables. If the variables are changed the number will be changed

Variables are for example attack speed, attack strength, attack hit or misses, health, and so on

i guess its a lot of variables that they can change in a mob.

So they had to lower some stats to lower the level number.

Thats why its so unclear. But there is a connection between level number and skillgain.

Just like there is a relation between level number and hp

its just mixed, like you can change a stat totally. If you change another stat the same but the other way then L number wont change.

I hope you get what i try to explain because this is most logical and explains everything that is said.

In this system, if mindark wanted to lower Level per mob they had to lower variables per mob.

HP is stayed mostly the same so there must be other variables that has to be lowered.

Its logical that in that case a variable that has to do with skillgain has to be lowered, like attack strength or hit rate. Result would be lower Level, but lower stats also on the variables responsible for skillgain. Its connected.

more mathlike: a+b+c+d+e+f+g+h+i+j=X

And X is Level, the others are for us unknown variables. Offcourse its not just a sum but there will be a formula, or a lot.

actually is Level number a great gift from mindark to us, they give insight in the skillsystem.

btw, have to mention Mindark explained to ark dev team that the L number change would not lead to skillgain change.

Its about that.

Not about why it is right or wrong.

Mindark stated something that we think is not correct.

So mindark is the only one that can give light about this problem.

I think the knowledge of the skillsystem dissapeared with the leaving of marco and maybe others that designed the skillsystem. but thats purely speculative.

Mindark can very well have done this not intentional.

Maybe its hard to get what i mean. Im pretty bad in explaining in a not native language.

 

[Spinaltapper]

First off I wanna say wow Xen your thread is up to 6 pages in no time already and you only posted it after we started discussions in mine haha cool. Your stat gains are similar to what I have tested for many years on mobs with below 100 health so its cool to see similar data.

As far as mob suggestions for future testing I would suggest Gallard on Arkadia - LvL 1 with 10 health but more similar attack speed/damage to calypso puny mobs. This can help remove some of the variables that Nighthawk has brought up regarding those differences. If someone wanted to venture out to NI we could even try out some of the Papoo puny mobs which used to be mob lvl 2-7 and also 10 health although I have no idea what their new lvls are but I'm sure they were lowered.

For 100 health-ish mobs I would suggest Foul Young (lvl 4 pre-patch) vs. Berycled Young (lvl 1 pre-patch) vs. Faucervix Young (lvl 5 pre-patch). These suggestions lead me to my next statements based on another quote and also stated in my original post.

I will post properly later in the week on how all this works, in some detail. I just need a quiet afternoon at work to write it up!

The truth is that just about everyone who has posted on this thread is correct to some extent. Yes, of course there is a definite relationship between mob level and skill gain - that is utterly beyond doubt - but at higher mob levels this relationship becomes heavily diluted and at very high mob levels it is almost irrelevant.

I just need to confirm one more theory first before I can do a big post with everything I know.

In the meantime, please don't kill the messenger who has bothered to actually post some test results!

Forrest

The major part of why the skillgains are diluted among high level mobs is due to a critical factor. Mob Health. Less mobs killed for vs. peds cycled = fewer kill bonus skills = fewer skills per ped spent. So on mobs level 90 vs. 95 with 3k-10k health the green lines are so few and far between that the difference is almost negligible as Forrest and I have pointed out previously.

So a quick example of how this works out would be as follows... (made up numbers/percentages just to illustrate the point)

10 Health lvl 4 = 4% TT skill return vs. 10 health lvl 1 = 2% TT skill return.

100 health lvl 5 = 3% TT skill return vs. 100 health lvl 2 = 2.25% TT skill return.

500 health lvl 15 = 2.5% TT skill return vs. 500 health lvl 8 = 2% TT skill return.

2000 Health lvl 30 = 2% TT skill return vs. 2000 health lvl 20 = 1.75% TT skill return.

5000 health lvl 75 = 1.5% TT skill return vs. 5000 health lvl 60 = 1.45% TT skill return


In the end the major factors in skills gained vs. ped cycled are Mob Health (more mobs killed for ped spent = more kill bonus skills) and Mob Level (higher lvl = more skills). At this point I will bring up Nighthawk's contentions about mob regen, attack speed, damage, etc which are only partially correct due to the below reasons.

In the patch MA stated that "The threat level calculation for creatures has been adjusted to more accurately reflect difficulty and danger level."

Since this is the case mob damage, regen, damage, and aggro radius are all variables that actually make up the new mob level. Therefore mob health and mob level are the only two factors that matter when it comes to skills gained vs. ped spent since the extra factors are already included within those 2 variables.

In the end this results in a game wide Nerf to skills gained vs. ped cycled in hunting since 90-95% of the mobs in EU had their levels reduced. Whether you call this a Nerf or an "adjustment" or EU is "dynamic" is up to you but the fact remains that skills will be slower in hunting now for all players.

Hope this helps to further clarify some of the things still being debated upon and thank you again to Xen and OZ and some of the other players that have posted skill info on both my thread and this one. Off to more slaying of small critters!!

 

[sostoned]

Im pretty shure that foul young was level 5 before vu 14. After they are level 4

 

[Dollymaus]

Im pretty shure that foul young was level 5 before vu 14. After they are level 4

That is correct

 

[sostoned]

wanna share a secret

Wanna skill fast? Find high level but low hp mobs and mass destruct them.