Multiaccounts / shared accounts ingame - please share your opinion

[John B Knight]

Recently there have been many forum discussions in the achievments and space forums about shared accounts and multiaccounts and some members of the community already have experessed their opinions in those specific cases.

I thought it would be good to have a discussion thread to share our views on this:
- in regards to the ToU
- in regards to fairness between players
- in regards to the social aspects of the game (making contacts, discussing things in pms, building relationships,...)
- in regards to whatever else might be your reason to take a certain stance on this topic


For me to start this off:
I personally think that the limits that were set by mindark are there for a reason, the ToU 2.1 advices to not create multiple accounts. Why did mindark set such a rule ?
Looking to my experience in other games and what happened there due to multiaccounting there were things like people soloing game content that was not meant to be done solo but was there to work in a team or raid towards a shared goal.

Shared goals are often in place in MMORPG's to give people a reason to really experience the difference between playing a single player game and joining a virtual community.
Huge forum fights have in the past always been there when single players reaped the benefits that were meant to be in place for cooperative efforts, multiaccounts in many games where used by farmers to collect certain items and sell them for profit.

So when i think of the ToU and what mindarks intention of putting 2.1 in place could have been then i immediatly think of our RCE environment and how exponentially damaging multiaccounting could be if a player finds out something new that yields a profit and if he is able to utilize this knowledge not only for one avatar but for alot.
Similar is true when it comes to aim for cornering markets in a certain profession hunting certain mobs, mining certain ressources, crafting certain items or offering certain other services - whereever a way is found to gain an advantage over other players its impact will be multiplied be the number of multiaccounts.

When i think of the job mindarks balancing team has in regards to drop rates, avaiabilty of items or even which items can be used how often or how quick - or when i think of certain rights that are obtained through the posession of certain items and how the power that is derived from such items is multiplied by sharing them between mutiple accounts or sharing one account between multiple people who can then make more use of such items due to keeping an account active for longer then a single player could - then i believe that multiaccounting and/or accountsharing is effecting ingame balance.

If certain items where meant to be used round the clock, if they where meant to be shared between people im sure mindark could have implemented a functional renting system since long, but so far this has not happened and we do have a huge grey zone between what we currently can do if bending the ToU by their exact wording and what we maybe shouldnt do if playing by respecting the ToU based on their intention when it was written.
A clear word of mindark surely would help there.

But leaving the thoughts about ToU and what mindarks intentions could be, just looking into the social aspect which is a major one in a virtual universe or at least should be - what makes our entropia universe immersive ? What is it that creates the feeling of living in another universe aside from all the graphics and game mechanics ?
Its the people, its the fact that you can get to know new and interesting people every day, that you can build relationships with them in whatever depth you desire - a major experience in our virtual world the most important factor to creating immersion is the unique characters behind all those other avatars which we share our universe with.

In my opinion there is a huge difference between talking with someone who can remember what we talked about and with whom i can grow shared memories or if that person has no clue what im talking about even thought we spoke about it just yesterday (one reason for this can be that several people play the same avatar).
The other thing which often happens is getting in talk with different people about the purchase of a certain item or the view on a certain topic - one usually makes decision based on the thought that multiple avatars that were spoken are all unique and have each their own opinion - but if a single player is utilizing several accounts and behaving towards others like each of those accounts was a different person then there is a huge potential for scamming other players by making them think certain item prices would be higher, or that there was competition for a certain item while this competition actually is not there.

There is lots of people out there running multiaccounts and / or shared accounts - some of which even do both and to a degree where they are offsetting certain gameplay mechanisms and have a straight impact on the niche of the market in which they operate and that gets me back to my first thoughts - how can a universe be immersive if half the time you run into avatars that are essentially 'clones' or a closed community in themself ?
How can mindarks balancing team be successfull on their job if they balance according to playeraccounts instead of unique players ?

 

[KlowN]

I am 100% against owning multiple accounts. I find this is the biggest issue in the game - beyond loot, beyond taming, beyond bugs, etc. If a company can't even follow their own rules, all hell is broken loose. They !@#%ed up by letting some people slide ("Oh, it's his wife's old account" ; "Oh, it's for his business purposes"), now MA is stuck and no matter what they do about this issue, a large amount of the population will be pissed.

The main thing about this game is many things revolve around your reputation, how can a reputation affect you any if you have 3 or 4 different ones secretely running around out there.

Just to put it out there, if you own multiple accounts - I don't like you

 

[girtsn]

Don't try to control something you can't control, period - on multiple people using one account. I am against people creating new and new avatars to get some noob hof in mining.

 

[cibean]

Thank you.. I have no doubt that many of the blood sucking resellers have multiple avatars standing in line to buy CLDs recently. This is something which has really pissed me off and has indefinitely postponed my plans to deposit in the game for buying a LA and about 40 CLDs for myself (not for resale). I am sure many players have done the same or have already left the game... I believe the day is not far when it will only be MA and resellers buying/ selling to/ from each other

 

[Harmony.]

Personally i think two people playing one avatar is just as bad as one person playing two avatars (assuming the two avatars aren't manipulating auctions).

On a second note i would love it if mindark would allow multiple avatars on one account, sharing the same loot storages and all. That way i can mine on one planet and join a soc hunt on another planet by just selecting another avatar, without having to go to the trouble of flying to another planet.

and on a third note: Cibean, resellers have been in the game since day one, i think 50% of the sales are done by resellers, this has always been the case and will always be the case. I don't mind if the person i buy an item from is a reseller, as long as he has the lowest price at that time.

 

[Neil Stockton]

I agree with OP.

 

[Few Scars]

I agree in some part, but also see how having a second avatar could be useful. I guess the difficulty with the ToU is there are a lot of Husband/Wife households out there with two avatar accounts from the same computer. It would be very difficult for MA to police it. More so if players share account details, then yes an avatar can essentially be online grinding 24/7 run by different people. MA can't police it as who it to say you don't logon from different computers at different houses?

All MA can do is discourage it. I suspect they have a undisclosed limit of accounts per computer to prevent players creating 100s of avatars.

 

[Dan59]

I supose MA liked to write down that PE have 1 milion accounst.
They created tempting situations like sweating cap at 200 points, Cristal Palace without storage in old days, LA and bank managment, introducin of auction in PE, new planets, mentor system and many other.
I dubit MA cud be surprised that some ppl will try..

 

[Piotr]

If i read ToU correctly, nothing is against multiple account use (1 person 2+ accs or 1 acc with 2+ persons). Its just not adviced, however 1 person creating 2 accounts is against it. Reading support FAQ, it clearly says they cant stop u from creating more accounts but if 'illegal' stuffs done on one account, all account will be subject of termination.

IMHO unless its 'abused' big time, i have no problem with it, but having 2 seller / buyer chars for each planet is a little.. inappropriate. It was mentioned its not fair to other players, but again, whats fair in this game? Who has money can make more money (hunt or invest) and others (most of them) will just keep using, so having more money than others isnt fair either

On the side note: what do we know? ToU 8.n: 'Gambling activities are expressly forbidden in the Entropia Universe.' - there u go foma miners and lvl2 crafters

 

[Menace]

Don't try to control something you can't control, period - on multiple people using one account. I am against people creating new and new avatars to get some noob hof in mining.

I personally am against multiple people using the same account in order to gain an unfair advantage over other participants.

A single person playing a single avatar doesn't have the ability to log 20 hrs a day during 3x skill events.... or other events which only last a certain period of time. (Migrations, robot wars, etc.)

Also, how do I trust a user's account when I don't know who it is behind the avatar at any specific time? I've spent many years getting to know and trust EU participants.... In order to trust "Smilgs" I'd have to spend 3 or 4 times those hours because there are "Several" people who use that account.

I'm not sure if there's anything against multiple people playing a single avatar in the ToU/EULA but I think there should be. That avatar COULD be grinding 24/7 which DOES give an unfair advantage over a single human being. Even cocaine would only allow me to grind 24/7 for a few days before I crashed.

Not to mention.... what happens if one of the said users "goes off the deep end" and rips someone off.... before you know it... someone will be busting a cap in thier cousin's knee.

AND.... Person "B" could be skilling on the avatar while person "A" whinges on forums about out-running mobs while the rest of us are limited to holding position at revive while we troll the forums.

*Jeleaus because my wife refuses to learn to play EU so she can skill while I'm at work for me......*
Menace

 

[forgo]

I am one in the boat of major dislike for multiple accounts, multiple people per account (didnt consider until poster above), and any use of an alternate avatar.

The latest fiasco with the dreadnaught and the level of alts/ positions in game they play, causes a big concern and reality check.

There is a challenge in proving husband/ wife teams, except to require the documents that those who withdrawal need. 2 birth certificates or other ID, problem filed for records and noted. Don't have the documents showing they live at the address registered? Ban, until proven otherwise.

I could see the benefit many may have, I could seriously use a second account, with 7 pieces of armor to list for a set, there is only a few I could consider to be worth it, without sacrificing the other product line auction space. So many other uses of them, but they simply violate a rule many refuse to violate, in respect of the questionably enforced TOU.

I am certain a few crafters use them, you can trace many market indicators, and Entropia Life data to get a general idea who does this in crafting. Start making amps, you will have alot of random new players offering to buy your entire supply before you can list them at a more reasonable price, of course these avatars never actually use them or show any signs of gained skill.

Agreed,
Look into this issue, and take drastic action against the blatant violators main accounts, with a warning to the somewhat innocent, after banning all secondary accounts. IMO

 

[The Goat]

Personally, I am against having multiple accounts for the benefit of 1 person. I can remember when ME items were highly prized and people made multiple noob accounts to afk heal on a daikiba to try to get these items. I can say I did this too once and was not successful.

On the other hand, my wife had an account at one time as well when we only had 1 computer that could run the game, I would have been pretty upset if I was policed against and had my account/ip banned for having 2 accounts on 1 comp/ip.

Having multiple accounts for buying/selling is sort of a grey area. What is really the harm in having an account to log into to just be an auction mule? You are still buying/selling through the auction which gives players the chance to buy/sell goods as well as gives MA some money for the auction fees. If the accounts were created to be "support" characters during hunting, I.E. auto fappers - that is a different story. I do find a problem with this scenario.

Now, onto multiple people on 1 account. I see nothing wrong with this as well. IF you trust someone with your details/gear/money and they want to use your avatar for the greater good - so be it. We are all here for fun and some for profit. If you have found a niche that will pay your bills but your character has to be on for 20hours a day - by all means do it. If I had that ability I would probably be all over it.

-Goat.

 

[The Goat]

There is a challenge in proving husband/ wife teams, except to require the documents that those who withdrawal need. 2 birth certificates or other ID, problem filed for records and noted. Don't have the documents showing they live at the address registered? Ban, until proven otherwise.

This is absolutely none of anyone's business.

 

[Magyar_Republic]

This is absolutely none of anyone's business.

Agreed it is absolutely none of anyone's business, and is far too much red tape for an entertainment system. +rep

 

[crazy]

Having multiple accounts for buying/selling is sort of a grey area. What is really the harm in having an account to log into to just be an auction mule? You are still buying/selling through the auction which gives players the chance to buy/sell goods as well as gives MA some money for the auction fees.
.

If the trader is using multiple accounts to bid up his own items, or buying & selling via his own accounts to give false Market values. Trading is where multiple accounts could cause the most damage IMHO

 

[Magyar_Republic]

If the trader is using multiple accounts to bid up his own items, or buying & selling via his own accounts to give false Market values. Trading is where multiple accounts could cause the most damage IMHO

Trading activities can be monitored without the need for asking people for their papers.

The systems in place (computers) simply alert when a trade has been placed, and then executed from the same IP. The IP is then investigated for number of accounts, and their activities traced.

If market manipulation is at play all accounts linked to that IP are banned.

 

[The Goat]

If the trader is using multiple accounts to bid up his own items, or buying & selling via his own accounts to give false Market values. Trading is where multiple accounts could cause the most damage IMHO

Market manipulation has existed since day 1. I don't think ending multiple accounts would end market manipulations - it only takes 2 friends to continue the trend. There are other ways to manipulate the values of items as well. Crafters who own the sole BP for an item can manipulate the market however they want. Players with massive bank rolls can eliminate certain items from the market to resell at a higher price for themselves. Multiple accounts being banned won't fix market manipulations.

-Goat

 

[Fishface]

The problem comes of the burden of proof. I'll use my own situation as an example to demonstrate.

Here is me. Fishface. I started playing in EU, and my wife was playing a different game. When she got bored with her old game, she decided to try out EU. She liked it and stuck around. So here we are, two accounts from the same IP, logged in together.

My son also decided to try out EU. He didnt like it so much, but he still logs in enough to keep his account active.

My daughter also decided to try it. She enjoys the social aspects of it, as well as driving. We gave her one of each of most of the vehicles so that she can drive around. She particularly enjoys driving around Arkadia, looking at the different scenery, and playing with the different mobs' agro. But sometimes she will do other things, like fly in space.

My brother is also a gamer. He was living at my house for some time, and while he was here, decided to try out EU, but he also didn't like it. Too much grinding, he said. But he also still logs in enough to keep his account active.

One time, MA started up the "Calypso Adviser" program. Each member was to create a new account to be active only on the Calypso Gateway. I've logged into mine from time to time to help out the noobs on the Gateway.

So then...

We have six accounts registered from the same IP address. All of them legitimate. None of them used to "manipulate the market".

But what happens when my wife, my daughter, and I all decide to take a warp flight together on a MS? What if we are attacked? If someone were to happen along and see three avatars all named Fish-something, all repairing on one repair terminal, they could easily go saying "unfair advantage".

Does it give us an advantage over someone else? Hell yeah, it does.

 

[Magyar_Republic]

The problem comes of the burden of proof. I'll use my own situation as an example to demonstrate.

Here is me. Fishface. I started playing in EU, and my wife was playing a different game. When she got bored with her old game, she decided to try out EU. She liked it and stuck around. So here we are, two accounts from the same IP, logged in together.

My son also decided to try out EU. He didnt like it so much, but he still logs in enough to keep his account active.

My daughter also decided to try it. She enjoys the social aspects of it, as well as driving. We gave her one of each of most of the vehicles so that she can drive around. She particularly enjoys driving around Arkadia, looking at the different scenery, and playing with the different mobs' agro. But sometimes she will do other things, like fly in space.

My brother is also a gamer. He was living at my house for some time, and while he was here, decided to try out EU, but he also didn't like it. Too much grinding, he said. But he also still logs in enough to keep his account active.

One time, MA started up the "Calypso Adviser" program. Each member was to create a new account to be active only on the Calypso Gateway. I've logged into mine from time to time to help out the noobs on the Gateway.

So then...

We have six accounts registered from the same IP address. All of them legitimate. None of them used to "manipulate the market".

But what happens when my wife, my daughter, and I all decide to take a warp flight together on a MS? What if we are attacked? If someone were to happen along and see three avatars all named Fish-something, all repairing on one repair terminal, they could easily go saying "unfair advantage".

Does it give us an advantage over someone else? Hell yeah, it does.

Yes, but do you buy and sell from each other via the auction or via player shops? No of course you dont. You said you dont engage in market manipulation. So the fact that your accounts originate from the same IP and may be active from the same IP would never come into question.

In a properly designed system none of the restrictions would or should apply to you unless you engage in activites which result in recording of substantially increased markup within the client.

MA may have these systems in place, and just not be telling us.

 

[Fishface]

Yes, but do you buy and sell from each other via the auction or via player shops? No of course you dont. You said you dont engage in market manipulation. So the fact that your accounts originate from the same IP and may be active from the same IP would never come into question.

In a properly designed system none of the restrictions would or should apply to you unless you engage in activites which result in recording of substantially increased markup within the client.

MA may have these systems in place, and just not be telling us.

But imagine if I'm trading, and I have many items to sell. If my auction slots were full, I could just give some items over to her, and have her list them. This bypasses the 30 items on auction limit.

Imagine if we are fighting in space. We are on multi-monitor setups. I could easily mirror her view onto a monitor in front of me, then fly the mothership to line up her gun.

If we are hunting, I always can know where she is, and when she needs an extra hand.

All of this would be legal.

So then what if we were to buy a mothership of our own? Between the lot of us, we could offer scheduled flights around the clock. Who could compete?

 

[Magyar_Republic]

But imagine if I'm trading, and I have many items to sell. If my auction slots were full, I could just give some items over to her, and have her list them. This bypasses the 30 items on auction limit.

Imagine if we are fighting in space. We are on multi-monitor setups. I could easily mirror her view onto a monitor in front of me, then fly the mothership to line up her gun.

If we are hunting, I always can know where she is, and when she needs an extra hand.

All of this would be legal.

So then what if we were to buy a mothership of our own? Between the lot of us, we could offer scheduled flights around the clock. Who could compete?

Yep all of it should be legal.

You guys arent actually buying/selling from each other via the system. You can trade directly using any terms you see fit.

There's really no problem here.

Now if your wife listed an item on the auction for +1,000,000% markup, and you bought it from her (or even just +15% over the going market rate)... that would be a problem, as you both can offer each other a refund of the markup, resulting in a recorded increase in price without there actually being one in fact.

Now regarding just playstyle...

In a properly designed society there's no competition either. Teamspeak is up 24x7. Players can sign in and talk via voice commands without an issue. Enough players involved and you have a round the clock operation.

Fundamentally there's no difference. The proximity of you to your wife or children is irrelevant.

 

[Alainax]

The Avatar having Many "players" thing only bothers me in terms of you cant trust them. You get to know and trust someone, and if the next day they are not that person, then its a bit creepy.

But AFIAK within the TOU.
I know a few avatars like that... who have no set owner... and I wouldnt trust them one bit - as you just never know who it is!!


The Player having many Avatars.... is just not good, and against the rules set in to safe guard us all. Market manipulation is sooooo easy, as are many other things that just would not be available to the rule abiding players. Such as the one ofc we all know of auction manipulation, but this extends beyond just fixing MU - things like grinding... or meaning you can run flights 24/7 through the universe bypassing the summon/GL restrictions everyone else has.....its just a bit wrong.

I dunno, I guess I just like to think of that person as acutally being that person. If that person is actually not the same person you spoke to yesterday... or the same person you are speaking to right now as they have several of them and are trying to decieve of get around the system.... not cool.

I do 100% see the problem of families who play EU, I mean... how on earth can EU possibly determin who is a genuine EU family, and who is a person with 5 avas manipulating so many systems...

 

[Shapememory]

i agree that there is no way to effectively police this issue, and indeed i dont want MA in my house. on a morality ground, i can t condone multi-avatar-multi-user accounts.

what MA should do is define "illegal" in game behavior, and then actually police it.

policing would be huge challenge of course, but they could develop tools as Magyar mentioned. even having official MA avatars keeping an eye on things would go a long to keep people honest just as a beat cop does in rl. they could even go so far as to have invisible avatars for investigations. be surprising to some i imagine to get banned on the spot for exploiting.

 

[Magyar_Republic]

policing would be huge challenge of course, but they could develop tools as Magyar mentioned. even having official MA avatars keeping an eye on things would go a long to keep people honest just as a beat cop does in rl. they could even go so far as to have invisible avatars for investigations. be surprising to some i imagine to get banned on the spot for exploiting.

MA already does this. I can verify that. During a period about 2 years ago my society was under accusations of fraud from a group of ingame loudmouths affiliated with a person who later created one of the more famous scams in EU history.

These loudmouths accused me of everything from multi-clienting to botting to stealing to basically you name it, both ingame and out of game. Support requests were routinely filed against me.

During this time alot of avatars from Sweden signed up for my society. Like... ALOT. And more than a few came from the same IP (as the super admin my Teamspeak server showed me the IP's of users). Many of these IP's originated from Gotenburg, SE.

Guess who is headquartered there?

It happens. Trust me. I had nothing to hide so I gave these avatars full access to every discussion we had. Funny, the avatars disappeared as soon as the accusations stopped.

 

[dr3w]

During this time alot of avatars from Sweden signed up for my society. Like... ALOT. And more than a few came from the same IP (as the super admin my Teamspeak server showed me the IP's of users). Many of these IP's originated from Gotenburg, SE.

Guess who is headquartered there?

It happens. Trust me. I had nothing to hide so I gave these avatars full access to every discussion we had. Funny, the avatars disappeared as soon as the accusations stopped.

Actually, that's is some complex overkill. Kim said, that he can became chirpy. So there is a "player-ghosting" for sure, not to mention logs.

 

[Magyar_Republic]

Actually, that's is some complex overkill. Kim said, that he can became chirpy. So there is a "player-ghosting" for sure, not to mention logs.

Yep, anyway before this turns into a conspiracy thread...

This is a good thing!

This means that certain safeguards are being used on our behalf. We may not be 100% in the know about how they are being enforced, but that's not really our job.

Our job is to play the game.

 

[forgo]

This is absolutely none of anyone's business.

In regard to require ID for each account,

I agree completely that it isn't any of our business, but we all have an account with MA, and they could and do request it (for withdraws), and they would be well within their rights to do so at any time.

Considering the essence of deposits and withdraws, and the potential for fraud, I would hope they require some ID, just as any bank would. Anyone can get some form of ID, even all members of a 6 member family, really shouldn't be an issue and would require the work of making up a new form to sign in cases such as those at most, perhaps hiring one temp worker to handle the short term load.

I guess its like the illegals in America saying they shouldn't be asked to provide proof of residency.
It is not an issue for actual residents, who have valid proof, only an issue for the non-residents who don't, trying to circumvent the system, and funneling funds out of the country.

The last statement is eerily similar to the mechanics of alts.

 

[Magyar_Republic]

I
Considering the essence of deposits and withdraws, and the potential for fraud, I would hope they require some ID, just as any bank would.

Why? Money goes in. Someone is paying for it. Suppose you are paying for your child?

Now suppose you are taking money out. Would you really take money out of someplace to put it into an account of someone you didnt know? Thats rather preposterous. Suppose the money was meant for someone else, and it was in your account. So you withdraw to your account, and then pay your funder/debtor.

This solves nothing.

 

[Neil Stockton]

Avatar cops would be awesome. They could carry UL ban hammers.

 

[aridash]

Don't try to control something you can't control, period - on multiple people using one account. I am against people creating new and new avatars to get some noob hof in mining.

that. absolutly pointless making unenforcable rules. you cant know that the same individual is logging in. the only way i can think of catching this issue (if its even that) is to restrict playing hours. hands up all those in favour of a daily time limt...? no?

the multiple accounts is policable and they seem to do very little about it. however, how are they to know if 3 avatars from one IP is 1 person or 3 in the same house? are 10 from the same IP 1 person or a group at a college or work that play? but then its easy enough for someone to have two IPs for running two accounts. its a tricky one. they should have a couple of people monitoring and folloing up odd or blatant manipulation behaviours and taking action on that.