Info: Never never weapons

[atomicstorm]

I was reaching 2.5dpp with my Maddox IV, tier 3 with accuracy enhancers and Beast and skill level in mid-30's (before the upgrade option came, and my enhancers were bought before their mu went skywards). I wouldn't have used this setup for grinding ofc. Not sure what I am missing for the comparison?

Everything I suppose. You were unmaxed.

 

[Erza]

You should really go back and watch his video and read his log posts over and over until you grasp what he is writing. He has put an incredible amount of effort into trying to min/max his set up and has graciously shared his journey, research and findings with the rest of the community. There is a lot to be learned here if you have an open mind. In the end, its your ped card, you can do what you want.

"if you have an open mind"
Well i do have one because it is needed with background and with my family but for me this is a game and a game only and games are for having fun
For those that want to try to gain some PED's and go the most efficient in this game, hey fine with me "everyone their own"

But it really doesn't matter how you go about it for the reason that this game is like the lottery
They tell you that there's a chance for you to hit the jackpot but they just don't tell that it's a 1 to 10.000.000 ratio
So one could go as un-eco as one can and still loot that fat jackpot and one could go as eco as one can and still get zero and vice versa

MA don't force no one to deposit or not and as with the lottery the choice is all yours to take

And let us leave aside the fact that the results with the lottery as with EU can be altered

If one thinks about these to much the fun part of this game or any other game/lottery will melt as butter in the sun

Whatever one approaches in life or in this case the digital world always approache it positive

Have fun

 

[Spawn]

I did quite well with my 28 dmg 3.2 eco axe 1x0s at level 1 swordsman. Ofcourse sib did not exist and almost nobody was maxed out in 2004. But plenty of pedleak there at level 1. And that was before the ha correction of old school weapons.

Our old society leader Joepilar mostly used a karma killer as his main weapon of Choice. His Ath on a longtooth is still in the list
Luck beats eco and pedleak.

 

[Erza]

I did quite well with my 28 dmg 3.2 eco axe 1x0s at level 1 swordsman. Ofcourse sib did not exist and almost nobody was maxed out in 2004. But plenty of pedleak there at level 1. And that was before the ha correction of old school weapons.

Our old society leader Joepilar mostly used a karma killer as his main weapon of Choice. His Ath on a longtooth is still in the list
Luck beats eco and pedleak.

Thanks for the extra info about these weapons, really appreciate it
Got to agree with you here "Luck beats eco and pedleak"
Just had a global while using the Gravis GBR 34 on the longtooth so funny and the loot isn't that bad either and so is the total repair

 

[San]

Everything I suppose. You were unmaxed.

Why of course this is obvious, but it didn't seem to be worse than a maxed weapon with such bad base eco, neither in theory nor in practice. In the contrary, enhanced as said I got a fair number of critical hits, which I'm not sure are accounted for in Entropedia's weapon compare tool. I didn't record results back then. Not equipped right now to do a proper test, but maybe someone else already has. Looking at your numbers with the Mako, I'm not getting such a bad impression either. You were unsatisfied that it didn't make the cut as hoped for, but if you compared it to something really mediocre?

 

[Erza]

I did quite well with my 28 dmg 3.2 eco axe 1x0s at level 1 swordsman. Ofcourse sib did not exist and almost nobody was maxed out in 2004. But plenty of pedleak there at level 1. And that was before the ha correction of old school weapons.

Our old society leader Joepilar mostly used a karma killer as his main weapon of Choice. His Ath on a longtooth is still in the list
Luck beats eco and pedleak.

See here some pics of my 1 hour plus 10 to 15 minutes (not much of a grind ) LT hunt with a Gravis and Justifier
https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/...-some-EU-fun&p=3502752&viewfull=1#post3502752

Cheers

 

[Erza]

Why of course this is obvious, but it didn't seem to be worse than a maxed weapon with such bad base eco, neither in theory nor in practice. In the contrary, enhanced as said I got a fair number of critical hits, which I'm not sure are accounted for in Entropedia's weapon compare tool. I didn't record results back then. Not equipped right now to do a proper test, but maybe someone else already has. Looking at your numbers with the Mako, I'm not getting such a bad impression either. You were unsatisfied that it didn't make the cut as hoped for, but if you compared it to something really mediocre?

I did some test and here are them pics,
https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/...-some-EU-fun&p=3502752&viewfull=1#post3502752

"but it didn't seem to be worse than a maxed weapon with such bad base eco, neither in theory nor in practice. In the contrary, enhanced as said I got a fair number of critical hits"

I totally agree with you on the above and i gotten crit after crit on each mob except for one or two and the normal damages where very good as well and just a few misses

Cheers

 

[atomicstorm]

Why of course this is obvious, but it didn't seem to be worse than a maxed weapon with such bad base eco, neither in theory nor in practice. In the contrary, enhanced as said I got a fair number of critical hits, which I'm not sure are accounted for in Entropedia's weapon compare tool. I didn't record results back then. Not equipped right now to do a proper test, but maybe someone else already has. Looking at your numbers with the Mako, I'm not getting such a bad impression either. You were unsatisfied that it didn't make the cut as hoped for, but if you compared it to something really mediocre?

You're welcome to continue using unmaxed. I will just say that I warned you.

 

[San]

You're welcome to continue using unmaxed. I will just say that I warned you.

Gee, I said already I didn't grind with it, just have a little fun in between. 2.5 dpp is 2.5 dpp, whether maxed or not. The Maddie is gone now anyway. The question was what's the deal that makes things like the unlimited Pirons any better.

 

[the-unknown]

End of the day, it's a game.

If you find it's more fun using unmaxed gear with the possibility of lesser loot, by all means do so.

If it's more fun for you to calculate everything right down to the last 0.01% and last pec, by all means do so as well.

There is no "correct" way to play the game. Just do whats fun and whats within your acceptable cost for entertainment.

 

[atomicstorm]

Gee, I said already I didn't grind with it, just have a little fun in between. 2.5 dps is 2.5 dps, whether maxed or not. The Maddie is gone now anyway. The question was what's the deal that makes things like the unlimited Pirons any better.

Very simple. You are not compensated for the misses AND the loss of damage. A maxed low eco weapon has a condition slider all the way over. (See slithered's experiment) And so it is possible to get compensated. However, a 2.9 never weapon that is 2.5 at the unmaxed ratio leaks peds... you are not compensated for that.

People focus on the misses from being unmaxed but the loss of damage adds up. That's not the only problem either.

When I was at L65 with the imk2, I had a 24% positive run rate. L70 with the mako was 28%. At L80 with the mako I was at 34%. I am 42% at L90 with the mako BUT I am 48% with a maxed embra with much lower eco.

 

[DoA]

Gee, I said already I didn't grind with it, just have a little fun in between. 2.5 dps is 2.5 dps, whether maxed or not. The Maddie is gone now anyway. The question was what's the deal that makes things like the unlimited Pirons any better.

From what I understood, 5$'s theory is as it follows:
- as long as a weapon is maxed, the dpp doesn't affect your long term returns, but instead it acts just like the quantity/condition slider on crafting - higher dpp equates with lower variations (so you will prolly never hit that big hof/ath, but also you'll prolly never have terrible runs either), while low dpp equates with higher swings (you may have both huge hits, as well as terrible runs); but, given a large enough sample, the total returns should be about the same in both scenarios
- unmaxed weapons negatively affect returns, so given a large enough sample (to cancel the luck spikes), someone using an unmaxed weapon will always have worse results than someone using a maxed weapon, regardless of the dpp of any of them

 

[San]

Now I get it. Thanks for the answers! (You must spread some...)

 

[ZPF]

From what I understood, 5$'s theory is as it follows:
- as long as a weapon is maxed, the dpp doesn't affect your long term returns, but instead it acts just like the quantity/condition slider on crafting

I still don't see how slither's experiment proves this. It alludes to it, sure. But it's far from conclusively proving that eco is "nothing but a condition slider".

From what I can recall Slither only killed a small # of mobs for his short comparison experiment.

The only thing I took out of that experiment is, the more PEDs you shoot into a mob, the more loot you will get. But the overall return could very well be lower long term (even with big fat multipliers factored in) vs high DPP.

A quote straight from slither since $5 seems to reference him often:

Nobody has done a long enough test to factor in ubers, so it's possible that % return could end up the same regardless of weapon dpp choice.

However, even if we assume u get the same % back regardless, there's still benefits to eco dpp hunting. eg. Completing an iron mission with uneco weap is a stupid thing to do, team/shared hunting requires best eco possible, and ofcourse getting 90% return from 1000ped hunt is better than 90% return of 1500ped hunt if you kill the same number of mobs.

But if u want a bit of fun and faster/bigger globals then grab yourself a swine deluxe (assuming you're maxed) and go crazy

And this is why I continue to cross my fingers that players purposely using low DPP maxed weapons share their logs on PCF some day.

 

[sidxx]

From what I understood, 5$'s theory is as it follows:
- as long as a weapon is maxed, the dpp doesn't affect your long term returns, but instead it acts just like the quantity/condition slider on crafting - higher dpp equates with lower variations (so you will prolly never hit that big hof/ath, but also you'll prolly never have terrible runs either), while low dpp equates with higher swings (you may have both huge hits, as well as terrible runs); but, given a large enough sample, the total returns should be about the same in both scenarios

while i don't totally disagree with the above (major hofs are still possible, EU is dynamic) i do disagree with the below. my loot results are similar to his despite being far lower dpp then him.

- unmaxed weapons negatively affect returns, so given a large enough sample (to cancel the luck spikes), someone using an unmaxed weapon will always have worse results than someone using a maxed weapon, regardless of the dpp of any of them

 

[the-unknown]

When you have a slider for crafting, you are trading off the number of chances of success against bigger loots when you succed.

I dont think that lower dpp or unmaxed = higher chance of big loots, does it?

Now, a hypothetical mob with 1k health, no regen with 2.9 dpp takes 344.83 pecs to kill, assuming no misses, no evades, not crits (on unmaxed gear).

Same mob, same dps, with 2.6 dpp but maxed costs 384.62 pecs, to kill

If every shot we do takes 30 pecs in ammo and decay, and we miss 2x due to being unmaxed, thats 60 pecs thrown away.

So even if you got a 2.9 dps, and it costs you "only 344.83 pecs" to kill that mob, the missed shots add up to a total of 404.83 pecs.

Is that extra 60 pecs (missed shot costs) returned in loot? I think thats what atomic means by ped leak.

 

[Fifth]

while i don't totally disagree with the above (major hofs are still possible, EU is dynamic) i do disagree with the below. my loot results are similar to his despite being far lower dpp then him.

Actually $5 has a pretty good explanation for both (well it's not invented by him but it's hopeless to find out who 1st came up with this idea). The condition-slider hunting puts bigger chunks of your loot into shared lootpool. From this pool ppl in this spawn eventually get it back in minis, globals and HoFs. If you in this area alone it's a closed system, nothing really changes, provided you are in there long enough.
I would add high dps (relative to the other ppl in spawn) increases the chances to collect the prize from this shared lootpool (althou does not guarantee anything, luck is still a major factor).

Explains why never never low eco weapons can work fine if they big, and will make you lose more than anything if they're not.

 

[San]

While it still is a theory, I trust 5$'s judgement here since he is the only one with a sample size big enough to say anything with any degree of statistical confidence. My own experience with "never" weapons is indeed better than the above suggests, but this is highly subjective and I certainly don't have enough data to back anything up. I always treated them as fun items and continue to do so. Not going to buy a low-dpp maxed gun like the uL Piron to test it out, but should I ever loot one I might give it a whirl. I had my doubts about the buy recommendation so I had to ask. Thanks again for taking the time to explain.

 

[Erza]

I did a one hour run yesterday on the same mob as before(Allophyl) using the Unmaxed Justifier and the Maxed Herman as tagger just like i did with the maxed L EWE frontier and maxed Herman and my return was 81% which is the same i had being maxed on both

With both maxed weapons i had 80(ish)% return as well but also around 90% and 70%
So in my case it really doesn't seems to matter, the only difference i've seen yesterday with the Justifier is that now i have one with 2 tiers and eco enhancers in them and i had less crit but since the loot wasn't any different than what i gotten maxed well it's no big deal or better yet no deal at all

I will test the Justifier with 2 damage and accuracy enhancers and see how it goes

Some pics about it lateron, got to run now since RL is calling me out loud and clear

 

[Spawn]

I will say one thing: if you want to effect your loot, you need to shoot the mobs with the loot.
whether you do that with an opalo or a doa loudmouth.. as long as it gets the job done and you get the loot you're good.

And for the grinders: the above theory from the guy without respect for asian sex workers holds truth.

 

[ZPF]

Actually $5 has a pretty good explanation for both (well it's not invented by him but it's hopeless to find out who 1st came up with this idea). The condition-slider hunting puts bigger chunks of your loot into shared lootpool. From this pool ppl in this spawn eventually get it back in minis, globals and HoFs. If you in this area alone it's a closed system, nothing really changes, provided you are in there long enough.
I would add high dps (relative to the other ppl in spawn) increases the chances to collect the prize from this shared lootpool (althou does not guarantee anything, luck is still a major factor).

Explains why never never low eco weapons can work fine if they big, and will make you lose more than anything if they're not.

This would be a very nice and convenient explanation as to the DPP phenomenon, for sure.

I'm not entirely sold on server specific loot pools though. I've noticed more instability in populated servers vs empty ones, for sure. But I'm not ready to call it "fact" just yet...

 

[theProphet]

2.5 dpp is 2.5 dpp, whether maxed or not

i'm pretty sure that you're wrong here

 

[Erza]

I will say one thing: if you want to effect your loot, you need to shoot the mobs with the loot.
whether you do that with an opalo or a doa loudmouth.. as long as it gets the job done and you get the loot you're good.

And for the grinders: the above theory from the guy without respect for asian sex workers holds truth.

"if you want to effect your loot, you need to shoot the mobs with the loot" that is funny to read and if this is true than all the Big HOFS will go to just a few peeps than but since EU is suppose to be dynamic even a low level depo like me could loot a large HOF one day

But your sentence does makes sence from a business point of view but than again that also means that EU is not dynamic

 

[Erza]

See here some crits screenshots of the Justifier with 2 eco enhancers
Still need to test it with 2 damage enhancers for about the same time(1 hours or so) and see how it goes loot and crits wise

https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/...-some-EU-fun&p=3504202&viewfull=1#post3504202

Cheers

 

[sidxx]

"if you want to effect your loot, you need to shoot the mobs with the loot"

But your sentence does makes sense from a business point of view but than again that also means that EU is not dynamic

but it does make sense from a business point of view, just change 5 words.

"if you want to effect your loot, you need to shoot the mobs with the loot"

if you want to grow your business, you need to acquire the clients with the money.

if this is true than all the Big HOFS will go to just a few peeps


i dont think hofs are not in a container some call a loot pool. many believe it is like this,peds just waiting to be scooped up, 5$ included i think although he calls it a "ped leak". there is no real way to prove one way or the other that i can think of, ive followed 5$s logs since he started them and my returns are similar to his month after month despite him being far more "eco" then me. if high dpp matters so much why am i getting the same results with a far less eco and decay heavy setup? i dont know the answer 100% but im quite sure that dpp plays a tiny role if any today versus 8 years ago before i started playing eu when peeps allegedly profited in tt consistently if their dpp was high enough.

 

[Fifth]

...
there is no real way to prove one way or the other that i can think of, ive followed 5$s logs since he started them and my returns are similar to his month after month despite him being far more "eco" then me. if high dpp matters so much why am i getting the same results with a far less eco and decay heavy setup? i dont know the answer 100% but im quite sure that dpp plays a tiny role if any today versus 8 years ago before i started playing eu when peeps allegedly profited in tt consistently if their dpp was high enough.

Sure, we can't prove much with our logs but it would be very interesting to see your exact setup and your logs and then compare them with others...

 

[Lefty]

but it does make sense from a business point of view, just change 5 words.

"if you want to effect your loot, you need to shoot the mobs with the loot"

if you want to grow your business, you need to acquire the clients with the money.

if this is true than all the Big HOFS will go to just a few peeps


i dont think hofs are not in a container some call a loot pool. many believe it is like this,peds just waiting to be scooped up, 5$ included i think although he calls it a "ped leak". there is no real way to prove one way or the other that i can think of, ive followed 5$s logs since he started them and my returns are similar to his month after month despite him being far more "eco" then me. if high dpp matters so much why am i getting the same results with a far less eco and decay heavy setup? i dont know the answer 100% but im quite sure that dpp plays a tiny role if any today versus 8 years ago before i started playing eu when peeps allegedly profited in tt consistently if their dpp was high enough.

My experience has been copacetic with this. High dpp, low dpp, what gives skills is high uses/year and what gives loots is being the top spender in the spawn. *sings* I walk alone, I hunt alone...

 

[Erza]

but it does make sense from a business point of view, just change 5 words.

"if you want to effect your loot, you need to shoot the mobs with the loot"

if you want to grow your business, you need to acquire the clients with the money.

if this is true than all the Big HOFS will go to just a few peeps


i dont think hofs are not in a container some call a loot pool. many believe it is like this,peds just waiting to be scooped up, 5$ included i think although he calls it a "ped leak". there is no real way to prove one way or the other that i can think of, ive followed 5$s logs since he started them and my returns are similar to his month after month despite him being far more "eco" then me. if high dpp matters so much why am i getting the same results with a far less eco and decay heavy setup? i dont know the answer 100% but im quite sure that dpp plays a tiny role if any today versus 8 years ago before i started playing eu when peeps allegedly profited in tt consistently if their dpp was high enough.

Thanks for your story of which has given me some insight,
"my returns are similar to his month after month despite him being far more "eco" then me"
"if high dpp matters so much why am i getting the same results with a far less eco and decay heavy setup"

Cheers

 

[Erza]

My experience has been copacetic with this. High dpp, low dpp, what gives skills is high uses/year and what gives loots is being the top spender in the spawn. *sings* I walk alone, I hunt alone...

Thanks for this info
Agreed with "High dpp, low dpp, what gives skills is high uses/year" using these never never weapons i do get good skills increasements
"being the top spender in the spawn. *sings* I walk alone, I hunt alone" that is why i walk and hunt along too
And as always it really does not matter as long as you are having fun playing EU and the loot return is pretty good

 

[Kerham]

There is an important difference here.

"Never" weapons should be treated completely different to SIB-unmaxed weapons. The latter are extremely dangerous.

However I don't recommend "never" weapons until at least lvl 40 hit. And I don't recommend them without a solid bankroll and extreme awareness to *everything*. Also, some "never" weapons should never be used amped, for obvious reasons.

To put things in perspective (but this will only add to the confusion): with "never" weapons you don't pay markup for using it, which is a 100% dead expense.

Generally, however, I would stick to the SIB world, is much easier to comprehend.