Oh I'm gonna get flamed for this....

[Jaas]

But here it goes.... Once and for all an answer....

I submitted a question to MA about the wing SW of Camp Phoenix to see if is was considered cheating to sweat there, and this is what they said.

Case 81986 History
16 Jun 2006 My Real Name:
Blah Blah Blah, etc..

Once and for all, is the Wing, SW of Camp Pheonix allowed to be used for sweating? Yes the MOBs become trapped under it and people sweat them. Is this a violation of the EULA?

20 Jun 2006 MindArk Support:
If the creature gets stuck and cannot reach you (for whatever reason), it should fall into a trapped state, meaning that it cannot be damaged or interacted with. If, for some reason, the creature is stuck, but does not fall into the trapped state, this is an exploit. If you ignore this fact and you still interact with the creature to gain advantages you are abusing an exploit and thereby violating the EULA

Regards,
Entropia Support

That is it. Answered.

 

[Lady Mercury]

I would like to see MA ban sweaters that is trapping mobs. There are ton's of places where people are getting sweats for hundreds of peds each month..

So MA..Show some guts and block all of them you see, just like the spidertrappers

 

[Nitrosomonas]

problem is, those sweaters arent taking MA's money, but the players'
so they dont care if someone survives by putting a bot there sweating....
they say its against the EULA... mmh... spidertrapping too... mmh... anyone seen monitor 08 at CP recently?

maybe you should propose that to support

 

[Donald]

I have no problem with the truth. If this is the policy then so be it. Why would anyone flame you for taking the time and trouble to get a definitive answer? I have considered going there in an effort to reach my cap, but was prevented from doing so by all the vicious creatures in the area that kept on killing and killing and killing me! What makes this spot so special, is what I want to know? I can get killed anywhere...

Sincerely,
Donald

P.S. and a +rep for you, Jaas!

 

[Squee]

Guess this one was discussed before.

So stuck = trapped = bug + fix for no interaction.

1. What if it got trapped and you already did 50% damage?
2. What if it attacks you, and you it, and your "stuck" and cant hit it anymore. Is that an exploit MA is abusing?
3. On different screens a mobs movement can be different. How can we be sure its not lag?

I wasnt talking about trapping unkillable mobs, but just basic ones we all can kill. It's obvious when trapping a spider with a pixie, that something is wrong or like lady said with sweating.

I don't trap mobs, although did keep shooting ones that some how got trapped on a hillside while running to me, which happens very seldome, like 10 times in since i started orso. I don't see that as exploiting the system. So even though i am not exploiting, i could get a warning/be kicked due to a bug in their AI system. And as already mentioned on this forum, it really cant be that hard to fix, or it really does say something about the programmers on their side. Could mean that the code is already a big mess, and that its hell to fix

 

[Dorsai]

It's MA's code.

How Am I supposed to know thats is an exploit, rather than a feature?

I loot a mob and get some teeth (normally 4), so i kill another of the same mob, and get another 4 teeth, that typically sell for tt+800%...

Am i exploiting Molisk, or using the system as it's intended....

Untill someone tells me that killing molisk for their teeth is an exploit, not a feature, i'll assume its feature.

Same goes with the rest....

PS. BTW, I dont sweat anymore, trepped or otherwise, and spiders scare the shit out of me, so I avoid them too.....

 

[Mirand]

....people are getting sweats for hundreds of peds each month..

So MA..Show some guts and block all of them you see, just like the spidertrappers

They cant get hundreds of peds each month, the sweatcap is there for something.
i couldnt get sweat anymore after a month and that was about 120 ped.
Also i think they dont get much skills other then sweatskill when doing it like this, no evade skill for one.
I guess it aint all to smart to sweat that way.


Greetings and gl

 

[Squee]

They cant get hundreds of peds each month, the sweatcap is there for something.
i couldnt get sweat anymore after a month and that was about 120 ped.
Also i think they dont get much skills other then sweatskill when doing it like this, no evade skill for one.
I guess it aint all to smart to sweat that way.


Greetings and gl

Some people make multiple accounts specially for sweating. Just follow the sweat/cash flow and youll find their real avatar. So it could be possible

 

[Jaas]

Well from reading the response, I think MA is saying this:

When you are interacting with a MOB and it becomes trapped, hence the message that appears on in the chat window. Now you can shoot at it, but it says it is trapped and can not be damaged, MA fix for trap senerio number 1

When interacting with a MOB and it says it is trapped, and it does not say it is trapped, and you kill it anyway for the loot, knowing full well you will not get damaged, this is an exploit.

So in the end, I do not see Sweating up on the wing a violation of the EULA, henceforth I do not see it as an exploit. Because the creature says he is trapped, I can not kill it for loot. But I can sweat it. And technically, if I jump off the wing, those MOBs can run after me and kill me, trust me it has happened before, hence no longer trapped.

Does this make sense?

 

[Donald]

It's MA's code. How Am I supposed to know thats is an exploit, rather than a feature?

Dorsai, I believe that is why Jaas started this thread- so that people, like you and I, would know. Know we do, and so will others who happen to chance upon it here.

Does this make sense?

Yes, it does.

Sincerely,
Donald

 

[ModOh]

Well from reading the response, I think MA is saying this:

When you are interacting with a MOB and it becomes trapped, hence the message that appears on in the chat window. Now you can shoot at it, but it says it is trapped and can not be damaged, MA fix for trap senerio number 1

When interacting with a MOB and it says it is trapped, and it does not say it is trapped, and you kill it anyway for the loot, knowing full well you will not get damaged, this is an exploit.

So in the end, I do not see Sweating up on the wing a violation of the EULA, henceforth I do not see it as an exploit. Because the creature says he is trapped, I can not kill it for loot. But I can sweat it. And technically, if I jump off the wing, those MOBs can run after me and kill me, trust me it has happened before, hence no longer trapped.

Does this make sense?

no. Read again MA's answer : " ....interacting ..." . Gathering sweat is interacting , is defined as . But there is a huge difference between what the EULA , CoU ond / or MA's support states, and what MA will do in each particular case. Particular meaning avatar, situation , time, player , and so on.

" DAMAGED OR INTERACTED WITH "

 

[dilly]

If M.A wona sort out the problem of over-head sweating they need to change mindforce so it cannot be done through the floor or through walls.
ATM it is completly legal, and M.A cannot deny their is nuthing wrong with it happening, their is no law saying mindforce cannot be done through the floor.

Until their is, it is not (or at leest should not) be considered illeagal, it it NOT explioting a bug, it is expioting the physical game surroundings - which were created for that very purpose!

 

[kira-red]

the thing is, MA didn't answer the specific question. so, once again, interpretation rules.

 

[Noggin]

Ask and you will find the answer, but do you think they care that people are doing it? Maybe they do...

I'm not going to flame you for it, but wasn't it fairly obvious that it IS an exploit? In fact, isn't it PLAINLY obvious that it's an exploit?

Dear old MindArk have many, many ways of extracting money from us gullible folk. Sweating is one of the very few practises which yields no monetary loss, unless intended.

Sweating is a boring, tedious process for most people. Make it too hard and people won't bother. This is MA's responsibility of course, but sometimes it's nice to turn a blind-eye to stuff. It's hurting nobody, and (arguably) I very much doubt it even affects the buying prices of sweat.

Those who make hundreds of peds out of sweating arguably deserve it too... hell, I can think of better ways to earn a couple of measly bucks!

Jaas, I'll be honest and say that in my opinion, what you just did there was petty and un-needed. You seem like the sort of person who'd be able to work out that question for yourself without the need for official clarification.

MA should get off their lazy behinds and police the damn game themselves. If they don't want people to sweat from a wing of an object, they have a few choices;

1. Get an avatar in there to tell them to get off (sensible)
2. Stop people from being able to do it in the first place (also sensible)
3. Wait for people to report individuals, and lock/ban them (rather dumb)

I HATE people who poke their noses in where they're not wanted. They tend to be the most petty, moronic, backstabbing, untrustworthy and cowardly people in my experience. I'm not saying you are necessarily any of these, but I think you get my point.

If you feel some sort of moral obligation to ask dumb questions with the sole purpose of spoiling some noobs chance of fun, go ahead. All you're really doing is helping protect MA's wallets a little more -- or are you?

I'm pretty sure if I was a noob trying PE out, and I didn't have ready access to a credit card (or want to put money in initially), I'd probably want to get enough cash together to experience the game first hand.

My line of work has taught me that most people will play a game for 30 minutes before either continuing or completely writing it off. Maybe if MA stopped people from being able to obtain sweat so easily they'd deter many future customers!

MA should be encouraged to have more of an in-game presence. PE is the first game I ever saw where seeing an official avatar was such a "privalege". They shouldn't police it as such, but just give more of a sense of the rules, put a face on MA, and be a little more accessible... People respond well to this stuff.

 

[ModOh]

the thing is, MA didn't answer the specific question. so, once again, interpretation rules.

wrong. this MA's answer is 1 of the very rare examples of an excellent support. Gratz MA on this.

Read the answer again pls : the mob is supposed to get into a " trapped " status, in wich it's supposed to cannot be damaged or INTERACTED with.

 

[DeusDeOnis]

So what happens when a mob gets "trapped" and I can not interact with it (dmg) yet it can still kill me? Have had this happen a few times.

 

[kira-red]

wrong. this MA's answer is 1 of the very rare examples of an excellent support. Gratz MA on this.

sorry. a direct answer would have been: yes, using the wing you identified for sweating gathered animals is an exploit and punishable under EULA <paragraph whatever>.

then they could have provided that noise on how they rationalize their poor AI and pathing algorithms.

Read the answer again pls : the mob is supposed to get into a " trapped " status, in wich it's supposed to cannot be damaged or INTERACTED with.

I read it many times. I have excellent comprehension skills and do not require to read it again. consider this...

you are walking along and you come to a vertical drop. an animal notices you and runs to the bottom of the drop. of course it cannot climb the rock face so you shoot it with a gun, then jump down and loot it.

is this an exploit? according to the "explaination" it is. I would argue that it is not.

further, I do believe that standing on the wing of that spacecraft sweating the animals below is most certainly an exploit.

how come I can say this and MA cannot? or like noggin asks where is #8 or one of his buddies? one or two appearances would put an end to it quickly.

 

[ModOh]

possible explanation :

a support answer must try to cover all possible involved " areas" , so, the telling : " ...if the mob is near you but from w/e reasons he cannot damage you , the mob should get into trapped status. The trapped status means you cannot damage or interact in any ways with the mob".
so, this telling does cover a large scale of possible situations , when the mob should get trapped but he doesnt.

Now, you ask for an answer like : " it is an exploit to sweat from that swing ".

Anyways, for my understanding, MA has answered ; ofc you may have your own opinion .

Btw, cya sometimes means : " Cover Your A** " .

Bye.

 

[Lady Mercury]

They cant get hundreds of peds each month, the sweatcap is there for something.
i couldnt get sweat anymore after a month and that was about 120 ped.
Also i think they dont get much skills other then sweatskill when doing it like this, no evade skill for one.
I guess it aint all to smart to sweat that way.


Greetings and gl

There are more than one person sweating each month.

 

[Jaas]

Noggin:

Actually I am in favor of sweating off the wing. I asked this question because there are a few individuals who believe it is against the EULA and we are using an exploit to do so.

And I agree, noobs deserve a chance. The game is advertised as being free. And yes if they wanna sweat to get some PED, then by all means...


The wing is an example of them being trapped? I dont think so, they can get out fairly easy. A trapped state is temporary to them until they start chasing you. What about those noobs that sweat through the fences at stables? Is that an exploit because they aren't getting hurt (the noobs)?

And I agree, that if MA has an issue with it, they will fix it. I do not believe it is up to individual players or a group of players to police the game, when they have not been asked to do so by MA. If anyone should keep their nose out, it's those who are trying to police the game on their own accord.

Therefore, I believe that is is OK to sweat from that area or others that you might be able to.

 

[kira-red]

The wing is an example of them being trapped? I dont think so, they can get out fairly easy. A trapped state is temporary to them until they start chasing you.

yes, it's an exploit. if the pathing was better, they would run up the wing, just like you do and kill you. if the AI was better, they would quickly get bored of being unable to reach you and walk away. either solution, preferably both, is fine and puts an end to this.

What about those noobs that sweat through the fences at stables? Is that an exploit because they aren't getting hurt (the noobs)?

yes, this is also an exploit. same pathing and AI issues, although why the animal just doesn't jump the fence is beyond my comprehension or why they fences isn't made passable like most of the terrain.

Therefore, I believe that is is OK to sweat from that area or others that you might be able to.

you can, of course, do what ever you want. still, MA's indirect answer is suggesting you are using an exploit.

 

[shroeder]

So what happens when a mob gets "trapped" and I can not interact with it (dmg) yet it can still kill me? Have had this happen a few times.

Wouldn't that be MA exploiting us for decay

 

[ModOh]

Wouldn't that be MA exploiting us for decay

lol !
and IF this is the case, what next ? ban MA ?

 

[Zairolin]

This is one thing I believe MA will not do anything about even if it is an expliot. For the simple fact that if you want to make any use of it you will need a like amount of force nexus. So what amount they loose in sweating they will make in probe sales. That will set this as a low priority for any course of action.

 

[Epictetus]

You were gonna get flamed but all the auto-sweaters are sitting in front of 10 computers coordinating their attack.

 

[Jaas]

See this is what I like. Good debating over a sketchy subject with no argumentive attitudes. LOVE IT!!

 

[Noggin]

I see where you're coming from, and I admit to misreading your intentions on this a little

I suppose something which to me is obvious, to others is maybe not so, so you've quite possibly done a service to a lot of people. I so strongly disagree with MindArk's trapping workaround (and what an ugly little hack that is), that I'm all for a little provocation in the right places.

Please accept my +reps

 

[Frigid]

That is it. Answered.

Yes...it is, Sweating from the wing is a violation of the EULA. Dance around the rules how you like, the result is the same:

"If the creature gets stuck and cannot reach you (for whatever reason), it should fall into a trapped state, meaning that it cannot be damaged or interacted with. If, for some reason, the creature is stuck, but does not fall into the trapped state, this is an exploit. If you ignore this fact and you still interact with the creature to gain advantages you are abusing an exploit and thereby violating the EULA."

-Whether a creature is stuck on terrain, down a hole, under a wing, or "for whatever reason" it should fall into the trapped state.

-Even if it DOES NOT become "trapped" (meaning you get the yellow text ) and continue to interact with it(targetting the creature and clicking on it for any reason...sweating, shooting, scanning, ANYTHING), you are exploiting a weakness in the game mechanics and are therefore violating the EULA.

This isn't playground justice: "Well, technically I did NOT touch the line as we know from physics it is impossible for two objects to actually TOUCH as there will always be an infinitesimal amount of space between them..." Bah!

Read it once...out load...listen to the words. Go watch those creatures spin helplessly under the wing and tell me that is on the up and up. Why can't they sweat like everyone else at CP, in a pack, and take their lumps along with the sweat?

 

[Jaas]

This isn't playground justice: "Well, technically I did NOT touch the line as we know from physics it is impossible for two objects to actually TOUCH as there will always be an infinitesimal amount of space between them..." Bah!

Playground Justice LOVE IT!!!

man I wish I had knew that answer when I was a kid, things probably would have gotten a lot worse, but oh well!!! Labeled a smart ass!!!!