Open Discussion #1 - Auction.

Marco|SDS

Prowler
Joined
Feb 15, 2005
Posts
1,482
Location
Gothenburg, Sweden
Hello all,

MindArk has been known for having a veil of secrecy around the company and around the development of Entropia Universe. This has catered for paranoia and conspiracies in the community and created an unnecessary distance between the developers and the community. I have several ideas for the future which I hope will bring more insight and relax the situation. One of these is to once again enable the Vote booths inworld, hopefully within six months time (the delay is due to having backbone tools for us and be able to use the statistics gathered from the various polls in there, so we actually can use it to make informed decisions). Until then I go for a web based solution here at EntropiaForum.

My ambition is to show what MindArk is thinking about in terms of future developments to Entropia Universe. Equally important is to show why we think the way we think. Some things mentioned will certainly be seen as inherently "good", some "bad", but I trust you will have easier time to understand a change if you also know the motivation behind it.

MindArk always strives to make Entropia Universe as enjoyable as possible for as many as possible. We also have in our vision the need for changes and upgrades to not let Entropia Universe become rigid and old. The development team is still quite small for an operation like Entropia is, and we have many, many ideas for the future and the vision of development stretches several decades ahead. This is old news for the veterans in the community but maybe new info for the newcomers – Entropia, like most MMOG's, have generation shifts continuously, meaning old knowledge is forgotten and old truths become lost.

Enough with the introduction. Here is the first topic – The Auction.


THE AUCTION FEE

Why?
The auction fee needs to be modified to address the following problems:
* The 1 PED fee is generally very low, which makes it extremely hard for participant-owned shops to compete fairly.
* Shops should have advantage over the Auction based on price. The auction should have advantage in the form of easy access from almost everywhere inworld, but at a higher fee.
* A fee of 1 PED makes it hard to sell low profit items.
* For items with high market value the current 1 PED fee is negligible. Participant at Club Neverdie therefore use the auction as a substitute for storage facilities. Some avatars have ‘constant’ auctions at very high buyout just in case someone is crazy enough to pay so much. These auctions make it harder to browse the auction, cause strain to the backbone system, and pollutes any attempt to analyze market prices.
* Many of our users want to put up more than the maximum limit of objects on auction. They feel that they could do more business we would also get more turnover in the auction system.

How!
* A general reduction of land tax for shops (probably at 50% of today's 5 PED, to 2.5 PED).
* An increase in fee for putting items for sale in the auction. The new fee will be somewhere along the line of: Reduce base fee 0.5 PED. Dynamic fee equaling a small percentage (5% or less) on the markup. The "markup" is the difference between the opening bid price or final sale price (if item is sold) and the item TT value. The seller pays the fee based on the opening bid price when the item is put up for auction. The dynamic fee is capped at a maximum of 100 PED.
* Increase the number items a seller in the Auction can put up for sale (undetermined number at this point).


THE ORDER SYSTEM

Why?
* The order system is a great tool for bulk orders of stackable materials, however the amount of things you can place orders on is limited in scope and the way pricing works is false compared to how prices are evaluated in general in Entropia Universe.
* The current system does not work well when dealing with low-price-per-unit items like Lysterium etc.

How!
* Rework the pricing system to use the established "TT+xxx%" method instead.
* Increase the number of items you can place orders on.
* Explain that the order system exists and how it works better.


BIDDING AGENT

Why?
* The current bid system is cumbersome and requires too much manual handling from the participant.
* Vulnerable for technical instability in connection between client computer and server, meaning a bid war may be lost if connection is lost.
* Auction drags on with the five-minute time extension if last bid is placed when less than five minutes remain until end time.
* Higher risk for delayed transaction of bid refunds when outbid and participant wants to continue bidding.

How!
* Add a bid agent (like EBay) which will cater for your bids, allowing for entering a "max bid budget" and automatically paying the smallest price within the budget range.

---

Feel free to make any comments (if constructive ,-) to this, bash or praise, or come with alternative solutions if you feel you have a better way if reaching the goals specified.

Note that the above is for discussions at this point in time. No ETA on any system is determined yet, it is not certain that any of the above mentioned items will ever be implemented and the specification can very well change radically compared to the above info.
 
bidding agent sounds good

order system should be expanded for ALL items, I would like to see at least armour & weapons included

PS nice to see some requests for input, hope we see this more often

<mind force update.. HINT HINT HINT HINT HINT ;)>
 
Like the bidding Agent idea...could've used that a few times before :)
 
I will have a few comments on this, but i will think my comments through a bit before posting them. Though the first one I'd like to comment is the biding agent. The agent would surley be a nice feature, but as an negative result of it would be accelerating inflation. While implementing a nice tool for "real" buyers, it would also add an efficiency tool for resellers and market manipulators. The resellers could easy manipulate the market while they sleep, or while they're at work. This would accelerate the strain and inflation on the market even more. IF not a great balancing plan was implemented TOGETHER with this tool.

I'll be back with more comments when I thought them through.
 
Very nice incentive Marco, this is just the thing we need, to feel that we can contribute to our virtual universe. :)

Cheers :beerchug:
 
excellent post there marco, i like all those ideas and think they will be very useful, nothing bad to say and at present I cant think of anything extra you could add to the auction other than making it available through the entropiauniverse site as well so that when we're at work we can spend more peds!! (maybe thats a bad idea after all) when we cant get to a pc to play the game
 
I agree to most of the changes in auction fee.

Although, some suggestions, I see no need to lower the base auction fee at all, I rather see it go up. Instead, the minimal TT+ of 1 ped in shops should be removed. This should enable the possibility to make great shops for beginners. The tax in auction should imo be limitless, while the tax in shops should be limited. Shoptax should also be lower. IMO this will stop allot of shillbidding or other attemts on auction manipulation.

Ordering I never use myself but those changes seem ok, and a bid agent seems like a good idea to me.

A question: what exactly happens with the auction fee and taxes?

ps Nice to see this kinda very needed communication :cool:
 
I wander;

Why can't we sell sweat in Auction, but we can sell fruit.
Both are free to find, both are 0 TT < 1000.

greetings,

bigdeal
 
That all sound great Marco :D

My initial feeling is that 5% sounds a bit high, of course thats from a players perspective. 100 ped to sell a +2000 ped item seems pretty steep. But the positive side is that it might help curb auction resellers. I do think a % based system will make shops a more viable solution as well as increase the number of players who sell things "on the street" or on the forums... neither of which are too bad.

Thanks for sharing Marco
 
e-lite said:
I will have a few comments on this, but i will think my comments through a bit before posting them. Though the first one I'd like to comment is the biding agent. The agent would surley be a nice feature, but as an negative result of it would be accelerating inflation. While implementing a nice tool for "real" buyers, it would also add an efficiency tool for resellers and market manipulators. The resellers could easy manipulate the market while they sleep, or while they're at work. This would accelerate the strain and inflation on the market even more. IF not a great balancing plan was implemented TOGETHER with this tool.

I'll be back with more comments when I thought them through.

IMO if auction fee is high enough, reseller will lose too much to be able to compete with shops. Auction should be for the rich, and shops should be for the people.
 
Marco|MindArk said:
THE AUCTION FEE

Why?
The auction fee needs to be modified to address the following problems:
* The 1 PED fee is generally very low, which makes it extremely hard for participant-owned shops to compete fairly.
* Shops should have advantage over the Auction based on price. The auction should have advantage in the form of easy access from almost everywhere inworld, but at a higher fee.
* A fee of 1 PED makes it hard to sell low profit items.
* For items with high market value the current 1 PED fee is negligible. Participant at Club Neverdie therefore use the auction as a substitute for storage facilities. Some avatars have ‘constant’ auctions at very high buyout just in case someone is crazy enough to pay so much. These auctions make it harder to browse the auction, cause strain to the backbone system, and pollutes any attempt to analyze market prices.
* Many of our users want to put up more than the maximum limit of objects on auction. They feel that they could do more business we would also get more turnover in the auction system.

How!
* A general reduction of land tax for shops (probably at 50% of today's 5 PED, to 2.5 PED).
* An increase in fee for putting items for sale in the auction. The new fee will be somewhere along the line of: Reduce base fee 0.5 PED. Dynamic fee equaling a small percentage (5% or less) on the markup. The "markup" is the difference between the opening bid price or final sale price (if item is sold) and the item TT value. The seller pays the fee based on the opening bid price when the item is put up for auction. The dynamic fee is capped at a maximum of 100 PED.
* Increase the number items a seller in the Auction can put up for sale (undetermined number at this point).


After thinking this part through a bit I think it's actually an awesome idea. The seller pays the high fee.. This is brilliant actually. I mostly buy items, I rarley sell, but if I do sell I wouldn't mind paying that fee. The fee could even be higher, and why even have a cap at 100 ped? Let's consider a cap at 5000 peds, or even no cap at all. This is one of the best ideas I've seen so far.

Aight, be back again, need to think more.
 
I just say thank you Marco for starting these threads and making more communication (hopefully it will last) with this vibrant community ,-)

Voting booths are good idea.
 
Witte said:
IMO if auction fee is high enough, reseller will lose too much to be able to compete with shops. Auction should be for the rich, and shops should be for the people.

amen :wise:

all I want to know if these changes take place will more shops open up, hate using the auction as a shop.
 
great job marco! i think this is what we want and this open communication is certainly gonna be very very beneficial to EU
 
Marco -

All good ideas... Especially the bidding agent... I, for one, hate being in the middle of nowhere hunting and finding out that I have been outbid.

One other suggestion though... Allow the listed items to be sorted when viewing them. Sort by time, price, tt value etc... This will help streamline the auction immensely... Also, I think it would be a good idea to expand the listing of items on the web site... Perhaps something as simple as an "Items Put On Auction in the past 30 minutes" as well as the "Item Auctions Ending" listing.

Overall, good ideas and I am now cautiously optimistic about improved communications between MA and the playerbase. Please, take it as the compliment it is meant to be. I do look forward to being able to recommend EU to my friends once again.
 
Wow...I think has been too long delayed :)

First thing's first (just a comment about the Intro). I remember the old Vote System and it was a cool idea, but I never thought you actually looked at the results (Weather and Day/Night 4 years ago? I don't think so! ;)), so hopefully this time around it will be more efficient! Also, about the old knowledge and truths...I'm still here (since November 2002 - Commercial Trial)!

As a non-regular user of the Auction, I think the propositions you have made are very good and will help a lot of people out (maybe because I don't know any better!) and maybe it will help me get into the Auction more. It seems great that you're doing this until you get the Votes up and running. Just make sure you keep it up, and address subjects that MATTER ;) (not that this doesn't). Thanks Marco!
 
And another little suggestion to make shops more usefull: Make an advertising terminal where you can browse all the ads. The bulletin board is ok, but not realy good if you have a certain item in a shop for sale. It would be good to be able to see all ads whenever you want. And maybe even categorize them.
 
Witte said:
And another little suggestion to make shops more usefull: Make an advertising terminal where you can browse all the ads. The bulletin board is ok, but not realy good if you have a certain item in a shop for sale. It would be good to be able to see all ads whenever you want. And maybe even categorize them.

shop search function would me me use them (I dont have the time to go hunting round apps shops for things that might not even exist in the shops
 
kygon said:
shop search function would me me use them (I dont have the time to go hunting round apps shops for things that might not even exist in the shops

Then use auction ;)
 
Bidding agent sounds very very good idea!!!! But limit the number of auto bidding items for each user. (lets say auto bid in only 5 items)

Totally agree with the fees of an auction. Just don’t make the % fee too high.

Suggestion:
You should be able to sort the items by any column in the auction (price, time, name etc.). this would facilitate us since there is not search function available in the auction.

the idea of open discussion is perfect! Keep on the good work Marco!!
:girl:
 
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well i will just comment the things i dont like, which means i like the rest.

lower fee will mean more garbage in auc, which if i remember correct is the main reason for adding the fee in the first place

a markup % to avoid it beeing used as a storage? that will mean that the fee will be charged nomatter if the items get sold or not which will be very hard for the real sellers who want to sell a bit more expensive items with a lower selling rate then other items, like sentinel, chornicle and other more specialized items. So i find it very wrong that it can cost you up to 100ped just to TRY to sell an item.

give the shops the advantage of beeing completly free to use instead, i dont use them myself neither to buy or sell and thats because it would take hours to find what i want.

I think the only thing it will achive is that more people will use forummarket places.

also, i think it wouldnt give any advantage at all, people would probably ask wifes, husbands, brothers, sisters etc to make an account and bring them to CND and ask them to hold on to their findings until they go down

in short, improve the shops do NOT ruin the auction
 
It would be nice if you put storage up at CND. This way people will stop using auction as a storage system. I would even be willing to pay a few ped per month rental for a limited storage (call it a locker) box there.
 
Witte said:
Then use auction ;)

but he cant chose that, its the SELLER that choose where to sell
 
There are several problems linked to trading.
I have to think that one through,
but I want to elaborate a bit on the Shop vs. Auction part already.

What I perceive as a inherent failure by design is to supply shops and auction at the same time.
In real life the small stores are already ousted by megastores which in turn are being ousted by mail order companies and internet stores.

So what you do is to supply an already inferior system with the shops and don't supply this with any of the real life benefits they once had over other means of trade.

More detailed thoughts are to follow.
Thank you for starting this Marco.
 
Lets do this now!!! not in 2008

See my comments in Red Below. This is great first step. Lets see this stuff get implemented this year as alot of this isn't hard (like reducing tax rates). Remember Talk is Cheap!!!

THE AUCTION FEE


How!
* A general reduction of land tax for shops (probably at 50% of today's 5 PED, to 2.5 PED). YES! YES! Please do this immediately. IF I pay 5k for a shop I should have an advantage over the auction!!!* An increase in fee for putting items for sale in the auction. The new fee will be somewhere along the line of: Reduce base fee 0.5 PED. Dynamic fee equaling a small percentage (5% or less) on the markup. The "markup" is the difference between the opening bid price or final sale price (if item is sold) and the item TT value. The seller pays the fee based on the opening bid price when the item is put up for auction. The dynamic fee is capped at a maximum of 100 PED. I agree, but I would make ther base fee still 1ped and the max fee higher around 200 PED
* Increase the number items a seller in the Auction can put up for sale (undetermined number at this point). NO!! Force people who sell alot of items to buy a shop

THE ORDER SYSTEM


How!
* Rework the pricing system to use the established "TT+xxx%" method instead. I agree
* Increase the number of items you can place orders on. No! I think the current number is fine.* Explain that the order system exists and how it works better. YES


BIDDING AGENT

How!
* Add a bid agent (like EBay) which will cater for your bids, allowing for entering a "max bid budget" and automatically paying the smallest price within the budget range. Yes, but only allow 5 bidding Agents at a time. This will allow people to auto-bid on a few select items they really want but keep resellers from pushing up prices on many different items.


To Etopia/thewebbie:

If you want to hunt/mine CND buy an apartment for storage. If you can't afford one then you really shouldn't be up there. :twocents:
 
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Lets all try to stay within the AUCTION subject. If you want to say more after you post something, just EDIT the post and dont create a new one.
Lets help MArco to continue with this idea of open discussion and not abandon it.
 
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Putting the Voting System back in order is the best thing imo.

The 3 other points concerns 2 points I have experience with (putting space items on auction and need for a bidding agent) and 1 I was thinking about some time ago (ordering could make it easier for miners to know whats needed most). A higher auction fee would also again mean that "human" trade is much more meaningful again.

So I fully look forward to any of those ideas being implemented and great way of communication :dunce:
 
Good post Marco.

This is the kind of interaction we like (at least i do for sure).

If the auction system is changed I think that selling a complete armor set in one sale would be a much appreciated addition. Not only in auction but also in shops and shopkeepers. A lot of complete armor sets are now sold through EF which not all users use (unbelievable but true) this is done mainly to be able to sell the entire set in one go. I think a lot of people would appreciate it if they could sell a complete set in auction or shop/shopkeepers without dividing it up.

Please continue this kind of interaction with your customers.

Cheers
Richard
(ingame Siam)
 
Every complex containing shops inside it should at least have visible index, like:

Nevarna: Used cars & Insurance
Kalanen: Lubricants for business and pleasure

etc.

This could mean just static billboard (no ads) in front of entrance.
 
Roth said:
well i will just comment the things i dont like, which means i like the rest.

lower fee will mean more garbage in auc, which if i remember correct is the main reason for adding the fee in the first place
Yeh i agree.
a markup % to avoid it beeing used as a storage? that will mean that the fee will be charged nomatter if the items get sold or not which will be very hard for the real sellers who want to sell a bit more expensive items with a lower selling rate then other items, like sentinel, chornicle and other more specialized items. So i find it very wrong that it can cost you up to 100ped just to TRY to sell an item.

I think thats a good thing. It will make people think twice to ask too much. And you can always try to find a reseller that sell it in their shop.

give the shops the advantage of beeing completly free to use instead, i dont use them myself neither to buy or sell and thats because it would take hours to find what i want.

I agree, although i realize it will never happen, so i just suggest a lower tax/fee then auction
 
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