Probably a stupid question...but...do armour attachments make armour more eco?

[RobBuona]

Yes, the puny test was silly, but it proved a point. When you're out hunting big mobs, and you let a lil exa or something chew you, it costs a bit more than you think.

Meanwhile, I did test #2:

UNplated ghost vs vigi+5B on bery prowler. Both armors give 19 impact protection.

Unfortunately, the bery got 11 hits on the vigi+5B, however. here's the repair bills:

Unplated ghost


vigi+5B


Due to the extra 1 hit, and factoring in whatever micro-pec of dmg, I'm willing to consider these the exact same cost, or as close enough to matter.

and yes, I completely agree having multi-plates to choose from increases your options. My collection includes 2A, 5A, 5B, 6A & 6B.

But having a collection is only useful if you are not a long-term camper. Then of course you get the best set you can for your situation, and sell the rest for ammo ped.

Something to consider: Ghost has significantly lower durability than Vigilante. It isn't just the plates making the Vigi decay less; it's also the relatively poor durability of Ghost. While the decay should still be less on plated armor if the armors have the same durability, it's worth noting that these two armor sets are not equal.

 

[PopFuzz]

nevermind figured out the formula

Yes, the puny test was silly, but it proved a point. When you're out hunting big mobs, and you let a lil exa or something chew you, it costs a bit more than you think.

Meanwhile, I did test #2:

UNplated ghost vs vigi+5B on bery prowler. Both armors give 19 impact protection.

Unfortunately, the bery got 11 hits on the vigi+5B, however. here's the repair bills:

Unplated ghost


vigi+5B


Due to the extra 1 hit, and factoring in whatever micro-pec of dmg, I'm willing to consider these the exact same cost, or as close enough to matter.

and yes, I completely agree having multi-plates to choose from increases your options. My collection includes 2A, 5A, 5B, 6A & 6B.

But having a collection is only useful if you are not a long-term camper. Then of course you get the best set you can for your situation, and sell the rest for ammo ped.

 

[JohnCapital]

Something to consider: Ghost has significantly lower durability than Vigilante. It isn't just the plates making the Vigi decay less; it's also the relatively poor durability of Ghost. While the decay should still be less on plated armor if the armors have the same durability, it's worth noting that these two armor sets are not equal.

Ghost = 2000 durability
Vigi = 2550
5B = 900

Only 550 dura difference, and the effect of dura to the decay bill required (L) armors to have 10k+ added to have enough impact.

Also factoring in the ultra low dura of the 5B,I believe makes this test as close to even as possible when using an impact-only mob.

Or you can say 2550+900/2 = 1725 avg. durability vs 2000. I know the math doesn't work exactly right for this, but you get the idea.

Unless you can find 2 armors w/ the exact same dura, plus being able to set plates so that they are the exact same protection.

 

[RobBuona]

hrm looking at your test then studying the numbers I may change my opinion. On the wiki Vigi+5b looks to be worse decay the ghost alone but knight+5a is better.

Anyone know what other factors determine decay, set tt? total protection?

There has to be a potential formula here to determine the best set up.

Well, he only took 10 hits. One factor of decay is how much damage is taken in; the figures you see on Entropedia are probably an average taken from a much larger sample size than 10, since mobs don't always hit for the exact same damage.

Ghost = 2000 durability
Vigi = 2550
5B = 900

Only 550 dura difference, and the effect of dura to the decay bill required (L) armors to have 10k+ added to have enough impact.

Also factoring in the ultra low dura of the 5B,I believe makes this test as close to even as possible when using an impact-only mob.

Or you can say 2550+900/2 = 1725 avg. durability vs 2000. I know the math doesn't work exactly right for this, but you get the idea.

Unless you can find 2 armors w/ the exact same dura, plus being able to set plates so that they are the exact same protection.

I dunno...from my viewpoint plates always seem to decay less than armor pieces with similar durability, but maybe I'm just imagining it...

 

[JohnCapital]

You're more than welcome to try these types of tests with your own armor, giving whater combos you feel will give the more accurate side-by-side result.

I, however, recently sold over 2/3 of my armor collection, so had little choices. But I feel the 19 impact protection for both unplated vs plated was close enough in my mind.


My point being: Sometimes you can't trust "the numbers" and just have to test things yourself.

 

[PopFuzz]

nevermind figured out the formula

 

[JohnCapital]

And since we're talking about numbers, I'll pull from entropedia:

on bery prowler, the "avg" dmg. from both these sets was 25.3

ghost averaging 1.439 decay/hit
vigi+5B averaging 1.454 decay/hit

so 0.01439 * 10 = 0.1439 decay bill. Basically what the bill was.

0.01454 * 11 (remember, I got 1 xtra hit) = 0.15994 and viola! 15 pec decay bill.

So all I did was show unplated can be just as useful as plates, which the numbers actually admit.

 

[PopFuzz]

nevermind figured out the formula in later post

And since we're talking about numbers, I'll pull from entropedia:

on bery prowler, the "avg" dmg. from both these sets was 25.3

ghost averaging 1.439 decay/hit
vigi+5B averaging 1.454 decay/hit

so 0.01439 * 10 = 0.1439 decay bill. Basically what the bill was.

0.01454 * 11 (remember, I got 1 xtra hit) = 0.15994 and viola! 15 pec decay bill.

So all I did was show unplated can be just as useful as plates, which the numbers actually admit.

 

[RobBuona]

...

Im not sure the exact formula yet but it looks like the plates and the armor take an averaged damage either based on combined durability split by the amount of damage they take or one takes the cheaper decay and the other takes at the higher rate.

...

http://www.entropiawiki.com/Page.aspx?page=Armor+Decay

You've read that, yes? Something everyone should read, and I can't imagine armor decay ever needing to be explained more in-depth.

 

[JohnCapital]

Well also
Knight +5a shows 1.242
Goblin + 5a shows 1.248
both also would have the same protection.

That is why I am thinking the high durability of the 5as has more to do with the savings then just pure armor alone.

Oh, no I completely agree that dura affects decay cost, (that's been admitted by MA directly) and 5A kicks ass.

However, the question is not armor+plate vs armor+plate. It's unplated vs plated, assuming it's the same protection points.

And for that, the answer is quite simply "it depends".

Which is why I use to hunt small rippers wearing goblin +5B instead of unplated shogun. (but I should've use unplated gremlin)

 

[PopFuzz]

nevermind figured it out

http://www.entropiawiki.com/Page.aspx?page=Armor+Decay

You've read that, yes? Something everyone should read, and I can't imagine armor decay ever needing to be explained more in-depth.

 

[RobBuona]

Yes I have read this page but it has no formula for how the decay is spread between plates and armor. That is what I want to know.

What happens when you get hit

(i) The full hit is offered to your armor. Its absorbs as much as it can and decays accordingly.

(ii) The full hit is also offered to your plates. Its absorbs as much as it can (regardless of how much the armor absorbed) and decays accordingly.

(iii) The damage absorbed by the armor and the damage absorbed by the plates are subtracted from the total damage. Whatever is left is what you get hit for, if its negative (or less than 1) you get hit for 1.0.

In other words, there is no "split" of the hit. The full amount of the damage is always offered to both the armor and the plates. This is why it is possible to overprotect. It's also the reason for the minimum decay formula.

 

[PopFuzz]

Oh I get it I was correct about the exponential decay savings.

Ok this is how it works on Johns test he absorbed 19 pts of damage in both setups.

Its the minimum decay that causes the vigi to be less eco.

When you calculate the decay ghost is 1.439 decay per hit.

Now for vigi and 5b you do split the damage so you put the numbers into the formula and
the 5bs decay .824618 pec per hit
and vigi comes out to .429144 pec so the setup should be 1.2537 pec decay per hit or .18 pec cheaper per hit.

but what happens is that vigi's minimal decay per hit is .63 (to get the minimal decay you divide total damage points by 100) so instead of decaying .429144 it decays its minimal or .63 so the total becomes 1.454618

Ok so I was right there is exponential damage and using plates helps reduce the level at which decay is added. But using an armor with too much protection for the type of damage it is absorbing means you are overprotecting the same exact way you overprotect when you only take 1 damage hits.

 

[JohnCapital]

Forgot about the min. decay issue. Still, a factor to consider.

However, I've already done the 1st 2 tests, and would appreciate it if someone did the next one(s). (In short, I'm too lazy atm. )

 

[PopFuzz]

Don't think any more test are needed, your test showed that it matched what the wiki said it would. Best advice is for anyone too look at the armor advisor tool and see the best match for their budget and forget all the math lol.

Forgot about the min. decay issue. Still, a factor to consider.

However, I've already done the 1st 2 tests, and would appreciate it if someone did the next one(s). (In short, I'm too lazy atm. )

 

[Leona]

UNplated ghost vs vigi+5B on bery prowler. Both armors give 19 impact protection.

Well Vigi, always makes me wonder when i see people with vigi hunting impact mobs (that was very popular when i was new because vigi was sort of "prestigious"). Of course thats not a reasonable setup.

Didn't run the numbers but i would bet thats about the same decay against big bery from Rascal + 5a and there you would get 3 extra protection for "free".

Second rule after not overprotecting is wearing an armor that has not too much unnecessary other protection types, because else the minimal decay kicks in.

 

[Karmic]

If armor and plates are UL, yes, armor probably does probably make hunting more eco in the long run since you are paying only repair cost on the armor. If armor is L, you are paying markup on the entire thing, but it'll protect you a bit longer as L armor protects at some level til it's all gone.

L armor + L plates are so much more eco than UL it hurts, well it hurts other people I guess.

 

[golddude]

Idk, why does stuff decay ? Oh wait MA wants monies