Quo Vadis MA? And who needs a gift if you have peers?

[DocKangey]

I couldn't help but have a good laugh when I read Pinky's last part of the "Life of a Newbie" series and came across Marco's comment on the bad mentor experience. (Life of a Newbie) Sure, everything is on MA's priority list. Always has been, always will be

But it made me think about all the great ideas that have been posted here about making the mentoring system more encouraging and rewarding for mentors. And to think about reasons why none of those ideas have ever been implemented.

I have refered to it before, but I think Alice just summed the whole thing up in one nice sentence: Mentoring helps MA to get new players to deposit more money. If I look at it from a business perspective it absolutely does make sense to allow disciple farmers, new players will either quit quickly (they most likely would have quit anyway) or deposit early to get out of the mentor's grasp. Either way it works for MA, and there are always unofficial mentors to do the real work for free.

Of course the overall value of mentor gifts dropped has to be minimized not to hurt the in game economy. Especially with disciple farmers around you can't be dropping a lot of value all the time. And of course ME items come with TT=0 because MA just guarantees for the TT value of an item. It does make sense.

This will be the reason why we will never see an implementation of mentors getting anything of the skillgains of their disciples. If mentors would get a percentage of skills after graduation it would be as easy to abuse as the current system, if a mentor gets skillgain earlier it would be even easier to abuse. And it would be an additional value factor for an avatar, a value MA hs to compensate. I doubt that (or any similar idea for that matter) will ever get implemented.

It seems to me the only way to get more fairness into distribution of gifts and/or benefits would be to manually review mentors and have real persons decide who should get what. Any automatic system can be fooled as soon as users find out how it works, but to implement a "fair" reward system it's mechanics have to be transparent, eg. people would have to know why Alice gets a better mentor gift than me Once you know how it works, you can abuse it. Reviews and distribution of gifts by real persons will never be implemented by MA either, it's too expensive.

Which, IMHO, leaves just one alternative to try to get the whole mentoring concept into a working system. Only if a (large) group of mentors is willing to take matters into their own hands and use publicity (in game and for example EF) as well as self policing concepts, peer reviews, ratings and os on to maintain a high standard mentor group. That way it would be possible for new players to rely on a group/community instead of just one single person telling them what/who a good mentor would be.

My question: how many mentors would be interested in putting in the extra effort to start and maintain such a group community? There is no extra gift to gain, you wouldn't get paid for it. You'd need to invest extra time. And you probably would get some additional headache out of it as well. Who would sign up for such madness?

 

[Bernz]

Probably 80% off topic but...

I think a minimum of 2000 hours ingame should be required to be Mentor.

I too much when I see peoples who don't know EU themself trying to recruit Disciple(s). Sometimes 3-4 Disciples at the same time.

 

[jim_T]

Probably 80% off topic but...

I think a minimum of 2000 hours ingame should be required to be Mentor.

I too much when I see peoples who don't know EU themself trying to recruit Disciple(s). Sometimes 3-4 Disciples at the same time.

Well why not implement some kind of "knowledge test" to test your EU-knowledge and if approved...You become a certified "Mentor"? ...just a thought...

 

[NastyCenturion]

Well why not implement some kind of "knowledge test" to test your EU-knowledge and if approved...You become a certified "Mentor"? ...just a thought...

or even better u can be a mentor after reaching 60 agility

 

[DocKangey]

"x" hours in game, "y" agility, some other stats, a combination of attributes ... all those ideas about criteria have some merit, but I think they don't really give a hint if somebody is a good mentor. That has been discussed so many times. I can get a bot skilled up to 60 agi and 5000 hours in game, MA won't stop me from doing that. If this is what it takes to become a disciple farmer, thats easy!

It takes a mentor to know mentor - see what I mean? Hence my question - how many of you mentors would be willing (stupid enough, crazy, mad or simply just optimistic enough) to invest into a mentor network - without getting any benefit other than somebody maybe saying: "man, thanks for the time you put into that crazy project, it helped me become the player I am today"

 

[Bernz]

Well why not implement some kind of "knowledge test" to test your EU-knowledge and if approved...You become a certified "Mentor"? ...just a thought...

Not a bad idea at all. But the Test should not be easy and contain a lot of questions to cover everything.

or even better u can be a mentor after reaching 60 agility

It's just me but I don't think Skills is a good mesure for this.
If I have a lot of $$$ it's "easy" to gain Skills. I can enter the Ring and shot at peoples non-stop until I reach 60 Agility. It will not make me a expert.

Maybe a high average of Attributes could be a better idea. But again, it do not proove I have good will and know a lot about everything.

Even my idea of a minimum of hours "ingame" (not base on the registration date) do not proove anything in fact.

 

[NastyCenturion]

It's just me but I don't think Skills is a good mesure for this.
If I have a lot of $$$ it's "easy" to gain Skills. I can enter the Ring and shot at peoples non-stop until I reach 60 Agility.

if u pk to 60 agility then u are a PK master and u should be a mentor. Now on a more realistic note 60 agility cant be reached without knowing the game IMO. (the bad thing is for miners/crafters ...)
I really dont know what should be required for a mentor to be a good 1, i really dont know how disciple farmers can be stopped, the actual system is really crap and without a major change most good mentors will give up.

 

[itree]

"x" hours in game, "y" agility, some other stats, a combination of attributes ... all those ideas about criteria have some merit, but I think they don't really give a hint if somebody is a good mentor. That has been discussed so many times. I can get a bot skilled up to 60 agi and 5000 hours in game, MA won't stop me from doing that. If this is what it takes to become a disciple farmer, thats easy!

It takes a mentor to know mentor - see what I mean? Hence my question - how many of you mentors would be willing (stupid enough, crazy, mad or simply just optimistic enough) to invest into a mentor network - without getting any benefit other than somebody maybe saying: "man, thanks for the time you put into that crazy project, it helped me become the player I am today"

Actually most of the serious mentors active today fall into that category. Ask Alice how many nice ME items she recieved so far We help new people because we enjoy it not for any prize (half of the people I "mentor" are not official anyway).

Seriously I do believe that an Agility filter would clean up the system quite a bit. At the moment, 3 day old players can accept disciples, and many do so due to sheer ignorance. The few highly skilled exploiters that "farm" disciples are not really that much of an issue.

Also the current limit of 20 points to be accepted as a disciple prevents most serious people from being mentored, as well as effectively preventing mentors and disciples from filtering candidates. I'd say raise the bar of accepting/kicking a mentor to at least a couple hundred points. That will raise the cost of the give-a-gun-and-ammo scheme quite significantly. It will also allow players that deposit right-off-the-ship more than a 5 minute chance to be mentored, since it takes about that long to gain 20 points if you buy a weapon and kill a few MOBs (cf Pinky's experiment).

Sure that will make it easier for professional mentor-hoppers, but life is not perfect even in a virtual world.

 

[Bernz]

i really dont know how disciple farmers can be stopped, the actual system is really crap and without a major change most good mentors will give up.

Farmers do it for the gift uH?
Real Mentor should not do it for the gift but only to help Newbs to know the Universe and how to survive for after move forward.

The easiest solution would be to remove the gifts. This way, we will only have Mentors who spread their knowledge for the love of Newbs and Entropia for free.
Those who do it only for the gift will disapear from the arrival zone the minute after the VU.

But we don't want MA to remove the gifts, because in fact, we are all Farmers.

 

[jim_T]

Not a bad idea at all. But the Test should not be easy and contain a lot of questions to cover everything.

I agree...and there should be random questions preferably w/ a pretty large amount of questions in the database covering, as you put it "everything"...

I´m sure some ppl will try to cheat this...let´s face it´s the world we live in, but perhaps even the "cheaters" actually learn a few things whilst so eagerly trying to cheat this test ^^ ...but I think that the bad/incompetent mentors that perhaps got themselfs a certificate by cheating...will loose credibility...sooner or later, prolly sooner...coz rep & knowledge is everything in this universe!

...just my

 

[Sirhc]

Just a quick note since I have spoken about this in detail in other threads.

The gifts are a nice touch but they should be measured on some scale as to how well the mentor taught their disciple. This would stop dead beat mentors and keep people from starting shill accounts to just try and get a good ME item.

I am not sure how MA could do it but it would make the system more appealing to people who are serious about mentoring and those who are serious about learning EU and not just looking for a sponsor.

Either way I think serious Mentors should be rewarded for the time and effort put into mentoring and I also think that serious Disciples are worthy of a milestone award as well when they hit graduation or certain milestones in their EU experience.

 

[Alice]

from a business view i saw the "Mentor" thing always like a subscription offer

i bet you know the "please invite your friend, so you get this cup for free!"

mentoring is basically pretty much the same

just that the cup is way more worth, and you spend way less time to get the cup (and headache )

generally, that mentors make ppl to deposit isn't necessarily true, but they can help for sure to make them understand a useful start, and not to deposit 10$ (if at all) then waste it all an useless crap and go (example, jester d1, maddox1, and similar crap you can get at PA)

in the long run, that leads to more fun generally i think, also since you have someone to ask you fell less lost, and that can lead to generally more deposits

however, this work, and it is pretty much, doesn't show in the gift you can get, nor in the skill gain (0.5 pt per graduated disciple )

tbh, i dont care of the value of the gift, be it tt=0, or markup of tt+5

what i care about is the total useless crap you get
just to name the standard gift, the FreanD alpha ME

hilarious bad eco, no SIB, which makes every L blp gun waaaaay better for skilling
same for all standard gifts


i would rather say a say, "storage box ME", or a say "Cactus ME" for your apartment

at least you could -use- it for something

the crappy guns you can either store, give away (to someone you don't like, very poor soul who uses those), or sell (even more pour soul)

so i would rather see a -use- of the ME gifts, instead of a rising markup or something

but when you mentor, you have for 99.99% a gun which is way better than the crap you just got, your disciple as well
hence, totally utter crap

the skill gain is a disaster for itself, so i wont start about it
--

to the disciple requirement
20 pts in any grad skill

newbie comes into the game, sweats, "thats too slow, i deposit", shoots 5-10 ped ammo, and is too skilled
ah, yes, thats the way

to the mentoring requirement

100 pts in a graduation skill

someone who shot around 40-60 ped ammo around, and played say 2-4 days
is indeed a perfect candidate for a mentor
he can most likely tell the disciple how to deposit and to get an opalo and shoot

ofc, WAAAAAY too low

at least you should be graduated, say 2000 pts rifle or 600 in surveying

that should be a variable in the MA mentor system, and should be easily changed (similar things were changed in the past and i highy doubt it is that hard to substitute a "100" with a "2000" or so)
------

when i achieved my current goal i gonna write more about that, atm i gonna try to be quite silent

----
to the "get more work for no payment" mentor group, i can share my info what i got etc. won't be a problem

but i doubt it would help that much, actually, i planned something similar, but it was put on hold, i had more important projects RL

i could help in that maybe though

---
as to "why alice gets the better ME gift"

i can assure you, she doesn't

i am at ~40 graduaters now, and the best i got was a cobra ME with the 37 graduater

considering that several ppl got marbers ME on their first graduater my rate is kinda bad, huh?

anyway, gl with the project

 

[SB2]

There may be no way to stop "disciple farming" but it can be made less palatable... Just limit the number of concurrent disciples to 3 ... This would also allow the mentor to give more attention to their current ones...

 

[DocKangey]

We cannot change the gifts MA choses to give to mentors, nor how usable they are. Nor can we change the skill requirements for a disciple to join, or when somebody can become a mentor. Nor can we get rid of disciple farmers or change how many disciples a mentor can take. All those factors can only be changed by MA, and frankly, I dont care if they pick up on what has been said about the mentor program, or if they just leave it like that. If they change it it might make some things better or easier, but dies it really change the mentoring system?

Some thoughts have been bugging me a lot lately, and I have been mulling over some concepts (as I am pretty sure many here have to a certain extent) I have been working with social networking software (think myspace or similar ones), web systems that enable you to build a network of people, mentors and disciples. There are ways to support peer reviews for example (mentor rating? mentorship tests?), self policing systems, I think there is a lot "cool" things that can be built in a site for a mentor/disciple network. I have seen a whole lot of really great suggestions that can be put into such a networking site.

Like EF builds a community outside the game, but it is a game community - a mentor/disciple network can be built up in a similar way. The reason that this forum doesnt do the trick is maybe that it is not the right tool - I dont know.

Anyway, technically it can be pulled off easily, the question is, who would be willing to invest some time and effort into building up the community. It would need some sort of "critical mass" of mentors to really get it to work. Are there enough mentors who would actively support such a concept?

I think this could be a way to set up a large network of quality mentors that support each other. Maybe to an extent that one mentor could cover for another if needed. Maybe with building a shared pool of resources. Maybe even with "mentor gifts" by the community or successful disciples. I think there is a whole lot that could develop, can we kick it off though?

 

[DocKangey]

as to "why alice gets the better ME gift"

i can assure you, she doesn't

i am at ~40 graduaters now, and the best i got was a cobra ME with the 37 graduater

considering that several ppl got marbers ME on their first graduater my rate is kinda bad, huh?

Uhm, yeah, I know that - what I meant was, you SHOULD get a better one and it SHOULD be transparent why. I would love to see a mentoring gift system in place that actually rewards all the effort, and not just gives away things on a completely random basis.

 

[Alice]

There may be no way to stop "disciple farming" but it can be made less palatable... Just limit the number of concurrent disciples to 3 ... This would also allow the mentor to give more attention to their current ones...

nope

i tend to keep disciples, even those who havent been there for months, in my list

several of them came back months later and even graduated still

limiting this to just 3, i would have to do very hard decisions of whom to kick everytime

my personal limit for new disciples is 4 btw, i dont have more than 4 active fresh disciples (below 70% is "fresh")

Uhm, yeah, I know that - what I meant was, you SHOULD get a better one and it SHOULD be transparent why. I would love to see a mentoring gift system in place that actually rewards all the effort, and not just gives away things on a completely random basis.

alright #D

just found the comment funny #D

 

[DocKangey]

The term "Mentor Gift" in itself is funny ... this game opened my eyes to some previously hidden fun things in life

 

[WoenK]

Did not have any disciple yet and my mentor only got a crappy gun.
Would not have known at the beginning, if he really could be a good mentor.
Found out a few weeks later, that he could not helped me, because i never asked for any help. I amore more of the explorer type, want to find out most of the stuff on my own, do some research.
The skills to end discipleship nearly drove me mad.
2000 rifles skills...thats hell lot of PEDs in ammo!
Surveying seems to be the fastest and cheapest way out.
Discipleship should also be ended automaticly, was quite worried because my mentor did not show up for 2 days and had heard rumours how long support cases take.

Mentors should get unique items, even better would be to make them untradeable and name branded. No uber weapons, but real useful for mentoring.
Maybe a good idea would be, that if mentor and disciple do activities together they can get mentor and disciple editions of certain tools and weapons ? Again, nothing really special, but something that lowers your costs in the beginning (like a pistol doing 3 dmg per round and having almost no decay).
Something rewarding both a bit, which looks also great in an appartment and has no auction value.

 

[jim_T]

...well I think, that the disciple should be able to atleast have the option to either kick his mentor or continue discipleship...after he or she has finished lets say 50%...if the disciple decides to kick his mentor, the mentor will recieve some sort of award for taken the disciple that far...and well if the disciple decides to continue...the mentor will recieve sumtin better when the disciple graduates @ 100%...

...or it could work like this...both of them (the disciple & the mentor) get the oppurtunity to choose whether or not to continue with the "education"...but the one who choose not to continue will not recieve any gift...so If the disciple choose to kick his mentor after 50%...the mentor recieves a "gift" for having him during this period of time...and if the mentor chooses to kick his disciple the disciple get sumtin...basically the one that clicks "YES I want to continue" recieves a gift in case the other one clicks "NO I want to abort"...

 

[NastyCenturion]

The easiest solution would be to remove the gifts. This way, we will only have Mentors who spread their knowledge for the love of Newbs and Entropia for free.

i would not train disciples for free.
why ?
Because:
1 I invest in my disciple (i do not leave him alone at sweat camp and give him good advices ... i buy his sweat at 1.0, i buy them armor, i hunt with them and even provide amo from time to time)
I made a calculation and i invest in a disciple over 500 peds

2 The time i am spending talking/hunting/healing i can spend on my own fun and just forget about the newbie’s after all it is my money

Even tough i know i will not receive something great the thought of a gift makes me continue although o know i invest more than i will receive.
Am i a gift seeker. Maybe yes
(i only have 1 disciple at a time never had more and the one who is my disciple gets my full attention, i will kick him if he wants to chip and wants to be released) and yes removing the gift will remove the disciple farmers but also 90% of the mentors and i really dont think it would be best for a newbie to just wonder around with no clue what to do next.

IMO all the system needs a readjustment:
ppl with low skills/ under 1 year ingame/ with no soc/ not active to much should not be allowed to be mentors. MA should have a filter.

If a person is less active that 2-3 times / week should not be able to be a mentor
An avatar with under 50 k skills should not be allowed to be a mentor

An avatar should not be allowed to be a mentor 1 year after creating the avatar

An avatar with no soc should not be allowed to be a mentor (why i say this? because the soc is a small proof u are a trusty person, if u are not in a soc maybe you have done something wrong, u are a known scammer and many more, not that i do not value freelancers but i think a mentor should be part of a soc)

An avatar that is not active 2-3 times a week should not be able to be a mentor.
Limit the maxim disciples to 5.

Put this all together and maybe the mentor system will improve IMO. many will say that "is too much" (imo it is still too low) but if u want to be a mentor then u will have to prove u worth it.
About the 20 points ... imo someone could kick his mentor before reaching 50% and should be allowed to be a disciple again.
And most of all, a disciple should give a note to the mentor (yes many will say that this will lead to disciple threatening a mentor but i really dont think that if u helped him through graduation this will happen unless u raised the disciple wrong.)