Suggestion: Revitalize PvP. Make all players and vehicles lootable in all PvP zones!

I'll be honest with you Atrax, I think you are getting frustrated that people are not fully reading your posts. One major reason for that is because your posts are very long, and bulleted without a separation of ideas or points. You are making new paragraphs which should not be new paragraphs. I've put a lot of thought into my initial proposal, and I could have made it a wall of text. Instead, I chose to pull out the most important bits and shorten it down to a length short enough to last the attention span of your average gamer. If you do likewise you'll probably get more support in your responses, even if you maintain the same position.

Plenty of truth. I often have the same problem in real life.

Except the only problem that I have with people who don't read my posts, is when they respond to them anyways. :eyecrazy:

<cut out a bunch of rambling>

Legitimate apologies for blowing up your threads into giant walls of rambling text.
 
Plenty of truth. I often have the same problem in real life.

Except the only problem that I have with people who don't read my posts, is when they respond to them anyways. :eyecrazy:

<cut out a bunch of rambling>

Legitimate apologies for blowing up your threads into giant walls of rambling text.

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Atrax again."

No worries Bud. I did try not to respond to anything I didn't read, and my use of quotations helped to organize my responses ;)
 
I am not familiar with the location you're talking about - somewhere the revive is located in a PvP zone? Unless you're talking about space?

There is many revives without a TP in non lootable PvP zones (Amethera).
The revive itself is normally non PvP, but you have to go through PvP to get to next teleporter.

This places would be easy to camp, and that can be very anoying, especially for new players that are just on a TP run.

Look how many TPs Amathera has, consider a new player with his brand new VTOL who just want to fly around to get all this TPs, and gets shot down regularly when coming close to next waypoint of his journey.

This would not be a very good experience for this player:

No chance to fight back against older players (lack of skill, gear)
Additional costs (decay, repair costs)
A lot of time wasted when respawned at start position.

Now gues what a new player will do if some griefer shot him down 20 times in a row?
I am sure he will log out after this 2hrs beeing pure frag food, and feel really pissed.

Its definately not what we need to keep new players in the game.
Its very likely that this will drive away new players, who regularly get shot down.

Not very motivating to stay when you are just frag food, isn´t it ?
 
Revitalize PvP. Make all players and vehicles lootable in all PvP zones!

...and let us drop spaceboxes. you can call that "space transport iron missions" and we not gonna talk about it anymore mkay? :cool:
 
vehicles in pvp4 again it will be one of the worst changes

Problem atm with rig its like there is no reward for shooting anyone and they can use vehicles. I see few possible changes for the rig area:

1. make rig lootable
2. add a toxic shoot for entering the area without making the area lootable
3. remove vehicles
 
How about implementing your idea just for LAs.

If LA owner decides to promote a PvP event, let your system be in place and players shot down during the event generate loot, based on cost to kill.

It could also applied in case when LA owner simply enable PvP on his lands, so as soon PvP enabled all PKs generate loot based on cost to kill.

That would be a good test for MA and the comunity, if your system will be accepted used.

It also could be applied to existing PvP1/2 (Argus/Rig)

Last times I was in PvP 1 (Argus) I met several players but no PvP happened, simply because they entered the area for other reason than doing PvP :D
 
Last times I was in PvP 1 (Argus) I met several players but no PvP happened, simply because they entered the area for other reason than doing PvP :D

i wish both would make sense, but not to an extend that people start war every day, or have to care too much about incidents, in our small universe. imagine all players and vehicles would loot 80% shared shrapnel and occasional boxes/rares, how many would really be motivated to kill others all the time?
 
... occasional boxes/rares... kill others all the time ...

My eyes keep jumping back and forth between those two phrases. Just the research on how many mobs you have to cycle to reach 95% (or better with MU) would probably be pretty epic.

:sniper:
 
Oh another problem in lootable pvp is that ppls still go low life or use rockets to keep their life low and when u meet them they run in mobs or tp. This so fucked up to kill them and not receive any compensation. This is exploited for many years now.
 
If you make it worthwhile to kill people, some of them will find cousins to kill.

Unfortunately.
 
If you make it worthwhile to kill people, some of them will find cousins to kill.

Unfortunately.

It's won't be worthwhile.
You will still loose in the end. As the house will always get the 5~10%
But you will simply not lose (waste) as much as you do now.
 
It's won't be worthwhile.
You will still loose in the end. As the house will always get the 5~10%
But you will simply not lose (waste) as much as you do now.

Not that sure about it!

Some people will do real PvP, speak spent serious PEDs on high decay weapons and expencive armors.

So if some use their "cousins", who can be shot down with 1 shot very eco. No armor, no FAPing, this could simply drain the loot filled up by the people who do real PvP.

It generates loot definately much more cost efficent than real PvP fights.
 
There is many revives without a TP in non lootable PvP zones (Amethera).
The revive itself is normally non PvP, but you have to go through PvP to get to next teleporter.

This places would be easy to camp, and that can be very anoying, especially for new players that are just on a TP run.

Look how many TPs Amathera has, consider a new player with his brand new VTOL who just want to fly around to get all this TPs, and gets shot down regularly when coming close to next waypoint of his journey.

This would not be a very good experience for this player:

No chance to fight back against older players (lack of skill, gear)
Additional costs (decay, repair costs)
A lot of time wasted when respawned at start position.

Now gues what a new player will do if some griefer shot him down 20 times in a row?
I am sure he will log out after this 2hrs beeing pure frag food, and feel really pissed.

Its definately not what we need to keep new players in the game.
Its very likely that this will drive away new players, who regularly get shot down.

Not very motivating to stay when you are just frag food, isn´t it ?

I can see your point. Perhaps an important implementation would be a safe zone surrounding every revival terminal large enough to spawn your vehicle and get out or TP away.
 
vehicles in pvp4 again it will be one of the worst changes

Problem atm with rig its like there is no reward for shooting anyone and they can use vehicles. I see few possible changes for the rig area:

1. make rig lootable
2. add a toxic shoot for entering the area without making the area lootable
3. remove vehicles

I will go back and review my original post - I did not intend to post anything about allowing vehicles into PvP4. My proposal is to make vehicles lootable so that when you are at the rig and people drive vehicles in, you can shoot them down and get loot from them.
I'm not opposed to the idea of removing vehicles from the rig PvP zone altogether, but that is not the focus of this suggestion - and I think it would actually reduce the potential action in the event that vehicles became lootable.
 
If you make it worthwhile to kill people, some of them will find cousins to kill.

Unfortunately.

This is why I am saying make it 100% shrapnel, no rare loots no special markup. If someone wants to kill their cousins repeatedly for 95% TT return with no markup then more power to them.
 
Not that sure about it!

Some people will do real PvP, speak spent serious PEDs on high decay weapons and expencive armors.

So if some use their "cousins", who can be shot down with 1 shot very eco. No armor, no FAPing, this could simply drain the loot filled up by the people who do real PvP.

It generates loot definately much more cost efficent than real PvP fights.

My proposal generates loot on the same algorithm as mobs, cost in cost out. Killing your cousin with 100 health who didn't fap would generate significantly less loot than killing Messi with 500+ health who did fap. And in either case, you wouldn't be receiving any more than you would if you were hunting a mob that looted 100% shrapnel.
 
My proposal generates loot on the same algorithm as mobs, cost in cost out. Killing your cousin with 100 health who didn't fap would generate significantly less loot than killing Messi with 500+ health who did fap. And in either case, you wouldn't be receiving any more than you would if you were hunting a mob that looted 100% shrapnel.

Exactly there is the problem.

Where does a 500 PED HoF on a 10 PED to kill mob come from?
Several people have to lose more than just the 5% MA takes, to make this happen.

If you apply the same mechanism to PvP, it is possible that you shoot 200 PED into Messi, befor you finally manage to kill him in epic battle and still get only a 40 PEDer out of him, and then the one shooting his "cousin" still has chance to loot a 100 PED for artifically nothing spent.

Many will lose and a few lucky ones will profit, and its not said that those doing real PvP are those who get the profits, when there is a lot who just kill their "cousin" :)
The more cheaters just killing their cousin the higher the chance that one of them profit, as those have a lot more loot events than real PvPers.
 
Exactly there is the problem.

Where does a 500 PED HoF on a 10 PED to kill mob come from?
Several people have to lose more than just the 5% MA takes, to make this happen.

If you apply the same mechanism to PvP, it is possible that you shoot 200 PED into Messi, befor you finally manage to kill him in epic battle and still get only a 40 PEDer out of him, and then the one shooting his "cousin" still has chance to loot a 100 PED for artifically nothing spent.

Many will lose and a few lucky ones will profit, and its not said that those doing real PvP are those who get the profits, when there is a lot who just kill their "cousin" :)
The more cheaters just killing their cousin the higher the chance that one of them profit, as those have a lot more loot events than real PvPers.

The problem you're describing is literally exactly the same as anybody who hunts punies or kerberos. I don't actually see that as a problem.
 
I am one of those who enjoy PvP in other game.

Why do I avoid it in EU?
Because its useless to compete in an unbalanced enviroment, where I simply be a viction without any chance to shoot anyone with high end gear and levels above 200+

So if you attach loot onto me, its very likely that I won´t mine/hunt anymore in non-lootable PvP zones, as shot down to often.

To make PvP fun, it has to be balanced, what is impossible with EU skill system.
There always will be UBERs who cycle a lot more than I (or any other average joe) can do, so they will always be way ahead in skills (HP).
Not to speak about gear that cost $10k+, what is just not affordable for average joe and me!

So no thanks, let it be how it is (at least in non lootable).
No big thing if I get shot down every here and then, just because someone wants to hit a playerkill HoF entry, but if people start to hunt me down in mining grounds to get loot out of me, it will become very anoying.

Maybe non lootable pvp zones shouldn't be so easy? Maybe if there were ores/enmatters only in non lootable pvp that weren't in non pvp zones there would be more markup and it would be worth it?
 
There is many revives without a TP in non lootable PvP zones (Amethera).
The revive itself is normally non PvP, but you have to go through PvP to get to next teleporter.

This places would be easy to camp, and that can be very anoying, especially for new players that are just on a TP run.

Look how many TPs Amathera has, consider a new player with his brand new VTOL who just want to fly around to get all this TPs, and gets shot down regularly when coming close to next waypoint of his journey.

This would not be a very good experience for this player:

No chance to fight back against older players (lack of skill, gear)
Additional costs (decay, repair costs)
A lot of time wasted when respawned at start position.

Now gues what a new player will do if some griefer shot him down 20 times in a row?
I am sure he will log out after this 2hrs beeing pure frag food, and feel really pissed.

Its definately not what we need to keep new players in the game.
Its very likely that this will drive away new players, who regularly get shot down.

Not very motivating to stay when you are just frag food, isn´t it ?

I actually think these are good things. Things that are very easy have little value. Getting all TP's before vehicles existed used to be somewhat of a challenge and took some time, and there was some sense of accomplishment getting tp's. Now it means almost nothing. There can be a safe zone around revive areas so you can use a tp chip to get out if you can't run/fly out. Don't have the skills yet to use a tp chip? Oh no... :rolleyes:

I would even go so far as to make some wide areas no vehicle zones, with more rewards, maybe even you have to interact with some mobs to mine valuable resources! :eyecrazy:
 
Maybe non lootable pvp zones shouldn't be so easy? Maybe if there were ores/enmatters only in non lootable pvp that weren't in non pvp zones there would be more markup and it would be worth it?

I am all for it.

Entering a PvP zone should somehow be rewarded with more rar things (ores/enmatters/loots).

If this would increase the will to do PvP (in non-lootable) is questionable.

For actually non lootable PvP areas (except Amethera), Jacks idea is really a good idea.

What we should keep in mind is just the huge Amethera areas between the LAs where nearly everything is non-lootable PvP.

Maybe you are right, as it would make TP runs on Amethera challanging.

Could also be a two edged sword, as the challange could end in a stuck at outpost, because PK griefers camping there.

I know what it means to get stuck in an outpost, as it happened to me in the old times.
Have had no TP chip that days, vehicles did not exist and my skill and gear was to low to fight my way through that hord of Atrox Domis. It was a real challange to run of the Atroxes to get a free passage to a nearby river, so I could swim away from that outpost. Took me many many hours.

Its one thing to face the fairly stupid KI, where you can find ways to avoid the mobs, or train them away in several attempts and many death, or facing a real player who actually can react on all your actions, follow you up and chase you again and again.
You cant train away PvP campers, as you can do it with mobs. Ypu cant drown PKers in nearby water.
Even if you have vehicle that may help you to get out of that outpost, it can be shot down by PKers aswell.

If there is no reward for the PKer, he will let you out sooner or later, but as long as he can get loot you again and again, what should make him stop?

In other games, not only shooters, its often called: farming newbies
Exactly in this other games, I see newbies regularly delete their accounts and never come back!
 
let's start a PCF voting thread about this suggestion and its options

:dunce:
 
The problem you're describing is literally exactly the same as anybody who hunts punies or kerberos. I don't actually see that as a problem.

I'm not sure if it's clear the implication that the 'cousin' wouldn't be shooting back. Sort of like having a kerberos who comes back and stands in front of you each time it respawns. Or the people who turn into pumpkins and get their friends to fill them with ammo for 15 minutes.

As a 90 - 120 HP mob it wouldn't be as good as a kerb I guess, maybe comparable to a combibo?

I've seen people pay a gang of new players to head to amathera and get a kill streak. With loot 2.0 engine I'm not sure if this is a problem for this idea, but since it's likely to include defensive skills for the victim too it would definitely be happening.
 
Yes right now without the system loot mechanic this behavior is a problem in space. But only with certain players that are actively here to work out their desire to cause other people problems.

For simplicity I'll continue to refer to them regardless of motivation, as griefers. The are plenty of players here in game that are space pirates for this reason, as much as (in some cases more than) any actual loot they might be getting.

These people would rather see you lose your shit all over space chat and maybe even ragequit than get any loot from you or your ship. In the current system, it's a limited problem, and probably no more common than it is (in relative %) than it is in normal society.


The current pirate line about "We're playing the way MA intended" currently rings through space as the battle cry of group of people who, given the choice, have chosen to be thieves and griefers. And MA did give them the choice.

Add a system loot mechanic and this becomes a seriously confusing issue. At that point MA is actively encouraging players that would never turn into thieves or griefers to go around randomly griefing players as they try to go about their business.

One players interaction with the provided game system is another player's EU nightmare.

I understand you've had to repeatedly clarify at this point you're not really talking about a gamewide implementation.

However "existing PVP areas" include most of amathera as well. In sum total this may be a part of the universe that's larger than most of the other planets and zones (Stations/moons/instances) combined.

Even confined to space, an environment most players avoid as carefully as necessary, I see incentive to do what amounts to griefing in the course of normal gameplay.

===========================================

For example I run into another player at skyflails, and he decides to show off for 90 seconds. I've got 25 minutes of trouble now before I can try to get back to what I was doing. That may be most of my remaining session, or discouraging enough to stop me early.

If I get back half an hour later and he kills me in another 90 seconds, I can honestly tell you in that moment you, him, MA, space and all of y'all can fuck off I'm logging out for a couple of hours. Maybe days.


===========================================
TBF in the end the most weighted argument I can see is that I don't think MA can pull these various conflicting drives together into a system without losing EU completely along the way.

I'm here for a avatar skill/experience based, non-linear sandbox MMO. Dabbling in optional PVP is an occasional bit of fun for me.

Spending my entire allotted gameplay being wrecked by people who want to show off their space sim skills or being left with no reasonable option but to schedule my gameplay around the bus routes is a huge no go.

Admittedly, I'm staring at a half a glass of water here, and calling it half empty. I can't call you wrong for saying it's half full.

In the end though, even if you take time to gather feedback and hammer out the finer points of a system that the majority of players agree would be, at least, interesting enough to try, I fear the end of EU would come before MA had it implemented as envisioned.

Edit: added specific example of "unintentional" griefing encouraged by this system.

Here is some intentional griefing on amathera. "We don't hate sweaters we just love PK".

90 Kills just on the top 5 HoF and >26 pages of fallout<

This does still happen occasionally, but it's usually one or two people who have found some sweaters in a yellow zone.

Don't ever engage in PVP - Did odd mining run in ark lootable pvp - Other than that a few spankings in space without losing much if anything at all.

Wouldn't miss PVP if it weren't part of the game - Since it is part of the game i also always wondered what the point of non-lootable pvp is.

Initially thought op idea is brilliant until i read your wall of text there (and i did actually read all of it).

Agreeing with lots of your points in that i could also see it playing out the way you describe. In particular the bit in bold.

Any change the devs may want to introduce should use this post as a cross checker.

Are we enabling any such behaviour with our changes? yes? don't implement!

Thanks
 
I'm not sure if it's clear the implication that the 'cousin' wouldn't be shooting back. Sort of like having a kerberos who comes back and stands in front of you each time it respawns. Or the people who turn into pumpkins and get their friends to fill them with ammo for 15 minutes.

As a 90 - 120 HP mob it wouldn't be as good as a kerb I guess, maybe comparable to a combibo?

I've seen people pay a gang of new players to head to amathera and get a kill streak. With loot 2.0 engine I'm not sure if this is a problem for this idea, but since it's likely to include defensive skills for the victim too it would definitely be happening.

I still don't see a problem with this. It's the same thing as killing a 90-120 HP mob, but all your loots are TT food. It's the same as if you're using a rifle against any mob you can kill before it reaches you - you kill it without getting hit.
Regarding gaining defense skills on the other end, still not a problem, as you can do exactly the same by suiciding on mobs.
 
I still don't see a problem with this. It's the same thing as killing a 90-120 HP mob, but all your loots are TT food. It's the same as if you're using a rifle against any mob you can kill before it reaches you - you kill it without getting hit.
Regarding gaining defense skills on the other end, still not a problem, as you can do exactly the same by suiciding on mobs.

Well one problem i see is if this is implemented in space , pirate or anyone else can pretty much keep killing an individual and prevent him from reaching his destination. This would cause major uproar and would affect MA in a negative way considering 90% of EU considers space a pain to deal with.

I loved the idea overall but i do feel that there are certain caveats which need to be worked on.
 
Well one problem i see is if this is implemented in space , pirate or anyone else can pretty much keep killing an individual and prevent him from reaching his destination. This would cause major uproar and would affect MA in a negative way considering 90% of EU considers space a pain to deal with.

I loved the idea overall but i do feel that there are certain caveats which need to be worked on.

That I do see a problem with. I'll consider a viable and simple solution for it.
 
That I do see a problem with. I'll consider a viable and simple solution for it.

what about spacethruster or other stims? once beyond the board in front of the head, the possibilities seem endless ;)
 
Well one problem i see is if this is implemented in space , pirate or anyone else can pretty much keep killing an individual and prevent him from reaching his destination. This would cause major uproar and would affect MA in a negative way considering 90% of EU considers space a pain to deal with.

I loved the idea overall but i do feel that there are certain caveats which need to be worked on.

Simple solution.

Let the OP idea only be valid on planet side and exempt space.
 
Simple solution.

Let the OP idea only be valid on planet side and exempt space.

No lets come up with a working solution not the status quo.

Like if your killed in space and have no loot you get a protective bubble for 2 minutes... or something...
 
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