Question: Skillgains on maxed VS non-maxed

[dbelinfante]

Currently in EU when we hunt we can either have a weapon maxed, or not.
If we haven't maxed the weapon, we can either be in SIB or not.
Now we all agree that while we're in SIB we gain skills faster than at any other time using a weapon.
But what about non-SIB weapons that we haven't maxed? How do skill gains compare to a maxed SIB weapon? To a weapon still in SIB?

So my question is, do you gain more skills using an non-maxed weapon or using a maxed weapon? Might there be advantages to using an old-skool weapon over using a maxed SIB weapon?

What do you all think? Please vote.

 

[kalanen]

Inefficiency = skills = natural slowdown = variance in loot, everything and such.

 

[dbelinfante]

Inefficiency = skills = natural slowdown = variance in loot, everything and such.

Please elaborate. A lot. Or point to somewhere with more info please.

 

[kosmos]

Go shoot 10k ammo on a mob same maturity with a non sib gun.

Go shoot 10k ammo on a mob same maturity with a gun in it sib period.

Go shoot 10k ammo on a mob same maturity with a gun the is out of sib period.

The guns probably need similar damage to keep everything consistent. And the sib gun you test in the sib period needs to be the same as the one out of the sib period.

Compare the results.

I haven't personally done this yet. I think all sib really does is skill you faster so you use a weapon like a level 100 avatar, at the cost of in efficiency early on in the sib period. Also at the cost of of economy (markup/scarcity).

I wouldn't be surprised if non sib weapons actually skill better you just don't get max efficiency. But then again look at the markup on alot of sib weapons that pretty much kills off alot of efficeny anyways well in some cases.

 

[kalanen]

Go shoot 10k ammo on a mob same maturity with a non sib gun.

MINIMUM to test anything like this, is to shoot for one whole prof level rotation and compare ammo/resources/time used afterwards.

And dbelifante; planning to do detailed post on this one.

At this point, I'll just briefly tell about how I see the whole SIB model:
"Every hour spent in Entropia Universe has a value", says official's face in EU promo video. There's 2 paths to follow; fast increasing account value using unefficient gear and getting seemingly low "visible" return and economical SIB stuff (sib on +25%, maxed -25% in account value) with better return compared to costs. Both, skills and sib stuff have a markup, and they'll balance themselves, as we've allready seen. It's +/-=0 from MA's point of view.

 

[Svarog]

Definitely non-SIB non-maxed weapon gives more skills than a maxed one. I use breers m2a(L) as a main weapon and either LR32(L) or MK3 as a panic gun, and while I don't see much skillgains from the first two things since I maxed both 1,5 years ago, using MK3 makes my chat window green because of continuous skillgain lines.

 

[SpikeBlack]

I've never really used the SIB weapons, only the pistols and only the s30's I've looted. I'm still using the justi MKII that I bought after the amp nerf and I'm quite happy with it. Many still don't believe that I can get a 90% hit rate with it.

As for the skill gain, I maxed the s30's and s50's long ago thanks to the effort I put into skilling rifle and tbh my trusty opalo gives more skill than those now.

I often found the mob I'm shooting has more effect on the amount of skill I get. A snable hunt gets me less skill than using the same amount of ammo on argo or drones. When I went on my first 35ped beacon, I was getting green text all the time, the more dangerous a mob is the more skill I seem to get. Thinking about it, this would make sense otherwise we could all skill to uber shooting snables.

 

[steffel]

i've done a test once (12 months ago) with comparable handguns...maxed h400 (L) versus imp21 both amped with 105 i think, at level 45 to 50ish on big tants:

the non-SIB resulted in far less skill per ped.
(imp21: 5.367 esi handgun per 1k ped
h400: 6.453 esi handgun per 1k ped)

imo this is due to the miss-shots and lower average eco = less hp removed

 

[Quickening]

i've done a test once (12 months ago) with comparable handguns...maxed h400 (L) versus imp21 both amped with 105 i think, at level 45 to 50ish on big tants:

the non-SIB resulted in far less skill per ped.
(imp21: 5.367 esi handgun per 1k ped
h400: 6.453 esi handgun per 1k ped)

imo this is due to the miss-shots and lower average eco = less hp removed

nice info, I always thought otherwise

 

[kalanen]

the non-SIB resulted in far less skill per ped.

That's pretty much expected, but how about (roughly) per shots?

 

[SODERD]

i cant say i see any diffrense between my ep21 and a p4a.

but i might be wrong... it can be in the longrun...

 

[Immortal]

I'm still in learning period for the illum i might give that a few runs.
Meanwhile, here's a pretty graph comparing SIB period=Yes and SIB period=Not anymore on UR-125

 

[Arylia]

Come on! This poll made me laugh, you can't find out the truth by running a poll! Unless, ofc, you try to get some more EFDs
You should be doing some tests if you would really wanted to find out how is it working. What if the scientists discovering some formulas would've work the same as you did? Running polls amongst their students? Or even worse, on the street?

 

[kalanen]

Come on! This poll made me laugh, you can't find out the truth by running a poll! Unless, ofc, you try to get some more EFDs
You should be doing some tests if you would really wanted to find out how is it working. What if the scientists discovering some formulas would've work the same as you did? Running polls amongst their students? Or even worse, on the street?

Poll is after what's players' experience on this one. Besides you cant base the truth on "some tests" either. Results are based on gazzillions of factors and they will vary avatar by avatar by prof rank by etc.

 

[Immortal]

Come on! This poll made me laugh, you can't find out the truth by running a poll! Unless, ofc, you try to get some more EFDs
You should be doing some tests if you would really wanted to find out how is it working. What if the scientists discovering some formulas would've work the same as you did? Running polls amongst their students? Or even worse, on the street?

Data on sociopsychological factors must be garnered through opinion, and it is the same case here.

 

[Executor]

Definitely non-SIB non-maxed weapon gives more skills than a maxed one. I use breers m2a(L) as a main weapon and either LR32(L) or MK3 as a panic gun, and while I don't see much skillgains from the first two things since I maxed both 1,5 years ago, using MK3 makes my chat window green because of continuous skillgain lines.

But are we sure that all skillgain message have same "amount"?

I mean maybe your MkIII gives a lot of very small skill and and your LR32(L) gives bigger skill packet less often...





Edit: personnaly, as long as we have no mathematical proof that a type of weapon gives more skill than another, I prefer to ignore these assumptions. Same thing for the Scopes, Lasers and other stuff which the only thing we know for sure is that they decay.

 

[AJack10600]

But are we sure that all skillgain message have same "amount"?

I mean maybe your MkIII gives a lot of very small skill and and your LR32(L) gives bigger skill packet less often...





Edit: personnaly, as long as we have no mathematical proof that a type of weapon gives more skill than another, I prefer to ignore these assumptions. Same thing for the Scopes, Lasers and other stuff which the only thing we know for sure is that they decay.

True...

...one needs to count the sills for both scenarios to get a propper answer, I dunno whether there are weapons that give skill packs rather than continous skills..

 

[Trina Xenophage]

I am not into all that number crunching but I have noticed when I got on hunts specificly solo hunts that I get far more skill gains using my ff then I get with any lr I have used and I am currently as far as into sib for the lr63. I am maxed in hit but not damage

I also notice that I hit more with the Lr's but the difference seem minimal as they are both only used to bring a mob in. I would assume that some of the extra skill gains is due to the added range of the ff vs an LR but that amounts to only 1 maybe 2 shots difference depnding on mob speed.

But this point of L vs UL is quickly becomming moot as MA is growing the L series and we will all be forced to go L to keep up with the Joneses so to speak.

Hopefully MA learns from the real world that disposable everything is NOT the answer.

 

[dbelinfante]

Come on! This poll made me laugh, you can't find out the truth by running a poll! Unless, ofc, you try to get some more EFDs
You should be doing some tests if you would really wanted to find out how is it working. What if the scientists discovering some formulas would've work the same as you did? Running polls amongst their students? Or even worse, on the street?

To which was replied:

Poll is after what's players' experience on this one. Besides you cant base the truth on "some tests" either. Results are based on gazzillions of factors and they will vary avatar by avatar by prof rank by etc.

Data on sociopsychological factors must be garnered through opinion, and it is the same case here.

What they said.
Of course it does not constitute scientific proof. But if a serious majority of players would lean a certain way, it's a pretty safe bet that that is the truth. Most of the time, experience is a reliable indicator. Not always. But often enough.

 

[NastyCenturion]

...... i tested this with p5a(L) + 104 vs merc + 104 same amo burn same decay (merc + attachements)

on 300 ped amo with p5a i gain 2 - 3 handgun and ~ 4-5 lwt

on 300 ped amo with merc i gain 1 - 2 handgun and ~3 lwt

(both are a bit over 6k but ~ at the same level)

so i say maxed give more skill

 

[kalanen]

Just chipped my powerfist out.

I will first skill with scratcher three until one full prof level (hit) is done, then chip powerfist out again and do the same with deathbringer me. I guess their stats are close enough to be comparable.

Will post results.

 

[dbelinfante]

Just chipped my powerfist out.

I will first skill with scratcher three until one full prof level (hit) is done, then chip powerfist out again and do the same with deathbringer me. I guess their stats are close enough to be comparable.

Will post results.

Great, can't wait to see the results!

 

[Svarog]

But are we sure that all skillgain message have same "amount"?

I mean maybe your MkIII gives a lot of very small skill and and your LR32(L) gives bigger skill packet less often...

Sure, it's possible. Didn't thought about it that way .

 

[Arylia]

Data on sociopsychological factors must be garnered through opinion, and it is the same case here.

I agree with you on the first part of the statement, but not on the second part. Unless you want only people's opinion on this matter, without backing up those opinions with numbers. But trying to have comparisons like the ones suggested in the poll options, without having actual data to compare, wont help at all finding the real way the system is working.

 

[Immortal]

I agree with you on the first part of the statement, but not on the second part. Unless you want only people's opinion on this matter, without backing up those opinions with numbers. But trying to have comparisons like the ones suggested in the poll options, without having actual data to compare, wont help at all finding the real way the system is working.

Well dbel is made a poll on opinion. as far as i know, i'm the only one who's done extensive duringSIB vs afterSIB Not sure why no-one else did them in the 1-2 years headstart they had on me either

I always find it curious how people assume they know something, yet never base that assumption on facts.

 

[~CHOPPER~]

dunno about maxed UL weapons..
I'll post results when I'm maxed.

*prepares to post in 3 years*

 

[dbelinfante]

dunno about maxed UL weapons..
I'll post results when I'm maxed.

*prepares to post in 3 years*

You're quite the optimist aren't you?

 

[kalanen]

I always find it curious how people assume they know something, yet never base that assumption on facts.

Ahh, the facts...

By gathering data and analysing it, you get something that just describes conditions - not facts. There is no facts for a player.

Few assumptions almost considerable as facts like avg dmg being in the half way bethween min and max just arise more questions: for example can it be fooled by avatar? Like does using weapon B on bad dmg (with gun A) days affect the final average or is it attached to avatar itself.

Methinks this game is way too "dynamic" for any kind of analysis.

EDIT: Tho, some data farming could be great for backing up the gut feeling aka assumption

 

[jjmatrix]

Ahh, the facts...

By gathering data and analysing it, you get something that just describes conditions - not facts. There is no facts for a player.

Few assumptions almost considerable as facts like avg dmg being in the half way bethween min and max just arise more questions: for example can it be fooled by avatar? Like does using weapon B on bad dmg (with gun A) days affect the final average or is it attached to avatar itself.

Methinks this game is way too "dynamic" for any kind of analysis.

EDIT: Tho, some data farming could be great for backing up the gut feeling aka assumption

You're right; however, for now it's all we have and is nothing wrong with trying. What would be wrong is to take any of this as 100% proof.

On Topic: I've been hunting with maxed L HG for a while; as for tagging I used either an UL rifle or whatever I looted and was useful, which wasn't happening as often as I would like ; on the same mob I didn't notice any difference in skill gain.
However, when I switched mobs... different story; almost always skill gain is different, and I'm not talking switching from exas to hogglos.

Bottom line, to me it looks like there are other factors influencing skill gain.

 

[Immortal]

Ahh, the facts...

By gathering data and analysing it, you get something that just describes conditions - not facts. There is no facts for a player.

Few assumptions almost considerable as facts like avg dmg being in the half way bethween min and max just arise more questions: for example can it be fooled by avatar? Like does using weapon B on bad dmg (with gun A) days affect the final average or is it attached to avatar itself.

Methinks this game is way too "dynamic" for any kind of analysis.

EDIT: Tho, some data farming could be great for backing up the gut feeling aka assumption

Yes facts are derived on a subset of assumptions. One subset is "firing the weapon means it decays the same every time" "the amount of ammo used is the same every time" Such as the speed of light.... we base things on the speed of light as a constant, we assume its constant so we can make meaningful analysis. Based upon the assumption that decay +ammo usage is constant, we can make analysis of loot return of differetn weapons or vs different mobs.

I had some weird anomalous data conscerning amp decay vs ammo used that I haven't got around to looking at yet I have to make the assumption that it was wrong during the recording ...somehow. Or disprove that I am wrong in that assumption