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Jimmy B said:
No, the HP message always comes first, followed by the skill gain message. Don't ask me why hehe but that's how it works.

Since all the skills contribute cumulatively they can come it any point on the skill that triggers it. ie. when you have 99.999 HP gaining enough in any of the contributing skills to gain you 0.001 HP will trigger the HP gain message.

Strength does contribute too, or so we believe, but that HP gain message was from the Courage skill gain trust me :)
Click to expand...
Ok, my bad, I thought extra health came a few moments after a skillgain like unlocks, but I realize that is a different thing.

If healthgain comes directly before the contributing skill maybe this can be the proof that strenght does affect HP (desperatly trying to be helpful :ahh:):
[br]Click to enlarge[/br]
 
JoLin said:
Ok, my bad, I thought extra health came a few moments after a skillgain like unlocks, but I realize that is a different thing.

If healthgain comes directly before the contributing skill maybe this can be the proof that strenght does affect HP (desperatly trying to be helpful :ahh:):
[br]Click to enlarge[/br]
Click to expand...

Yes, I'd say that does indeed prove Strength contributes (Melee Combat contributes too though, I'm pretty sure I'm right about HP message coming first but that has me wondering hehe).

Its quite easy to check if a skill contributes HP - you just need to gain some skill in it whilst you have full health and immediately fap after the skill gain. If it contributes you shouldn't get the 'you are at full health' message.
 
jdegre said:
hehe, thx, but the tool uses the info collected in this thread (except a minor tweak in the "base HP"), so all credit should go to the contributors in this thread.
Click to expand...

Well, you deserve a bit of credit for making the tool too ;)
 
Jimmy B said:
Well, you deserve a bit of credit for making the tool too ;)
Click to expand...

Exactly

To other people
And I didn't post the screenshots that I intended (sorry but never seem to find the time to dig up the old back up that I made of my disk when it failed and looking over 600K JPG isn't unanamed isn't what I call a simple task) But if find diferent results than what would be obtain by the values that I've supplied and still don't have any unlocked skill and started with attributes at level 20 please make sure to tell us and what were your skills when the health gain or loss message was seen.

To resume I'm fairly sure of the "natural non attributes skills", but not of the unlockabable ones nor the attributes at the moment,
I got somebody that tested for me the health level just with Attributes at 20 and no extra skill than the one I gave him to chip, it was arround 90,85~90,86 values.

And I believe that Agility which I set to 40 levels to gain 1 HP is limited to 38~42 for each HP gain.

But knowing this I still get values that differ by more than 0,5 HP for high skilled avatars (I've played arround with the values to the other attributes but 0,5 is the best that I can ever reach in a sample of different avatars) So I believe that there still might be an Unlocked skill that would give HP.
Has anybody FAP test MDA and Martial Arts (especially this latest) ?
I ask this so that I don't have to chip check it to make it sure (I will one of this days but I prefer not just yet).

MG Mighty is worth the trouble that he makes me spend on this wild goose chases for information
 
-Archangel- said:
So I believe that there still might be an Unlocked skill that would give HP.
Has anybody FAP test MDA and Martial Arts (especially this latest) ?
Click to expand...

I kinda think we may be missing a skill too. I can't remember ever checking MDA, its worth a quick fap check for sure - I'll try next time I'm in-game. Including Martial Arts at 1/1600 seemed to help with some of my figures but it was presumably just a fluke or bad data since I fap tested it without any success.
 
Jimmy B said:
I kinda think we may be missing a skill too. I can't remember ever checking MDA, its worth a quick fap check for sure - I'll try next time I'm in-game. Including Martial Arts at 1/1600 seemed to help with some of my figures but it was presumably just a fluke or bad data since I fap tested it without any success.
Click to expand...

I haven't yet unlocked Martial Arts yet, but you can still see my HP vs. the predicted HP gradually pulling ahead or staying static within uncertainty here.

It seems like these players with 200k+ skills ought to make it pretty obvious which skills contribute simply by comparing the results with expected results for a few. Maybe it's time to do some wiki scraping again.
 
Doer said:
I haven't yet unlocked Martial Arts yet, but you can still see my HP vs. the predicted HP gradually pulling ahead or staying static within uncertainty here.

It seems like these players with 200k+ skills ought to make it pretty obvious which skills contribute simply by comparing the results with expected results for a few. Maybe it's time to do some wiki scraping again.
Click to expand...

How much are these errors we observe in higher avatars?

I've just done Neomaven's from wiki.

On that data shot he has 319 health.
Total contribution from skills (contributions as listed here) and attributes (1 HP per 40) is calculated at 230.7.
Add 88.86 for starting HP with no skills & attributes and that gives 319.6 HP.

So it seems to work within tolerance for Neo. The only skills that could contribute HP and wouldn't push him out of tolerance (assuming a min contribution of 1/1600) are:

SWS (failed fap test)
BPC
EPWT (failed fap test)
Machinery
Man Elec Equip
Man Tools
Tools Tech
Dispense Decoy (definitely worth a fap test)
Mentor (try fap testing that :D)
Sweat Gatherer
Drilling Expertise
Electronics
Genetics
Mechanics
Color Matching
Coloring
and any unlocks he hasn't got

In retrospect, maybe I should've done someone with higher attributes though.
 
wizzszz said:
I've given up on mentoring long ago...

but i'd happily donate 10 ped if someone with 96 HP is willing to provide the data on first HP gain.
(Check your disciples, everyone!)
Click to expand...

I want those 10 peds :)

I uploaded pic of my first health gain here
https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/gallery/showimage.php?i=113024&c=20

Here is every skill I had at the time too

Alertness 27

Athletics 70

Courage 52

Dexterity 6

Perception 3

Aim 9

Combat reflexes 57

Inflict Ranged damage 14

Rifle 62

Weapons Handling 12

Evade 119

Anatomy 42

Laser Weaponry technology 94

Concentration 38

Sweat Gatherer 231 (yeah, yeah)

Agility 12

Intelligence 3

Psyche 8

I would have sent this earlier but I had some small problems getting registered in here. And obviously I really don't need that 10 peds that much. But hope this help some.
 
Galad that's really useful thanks. If you could repeat the process when you get you're second HP that'd be really useful!

By my reckoning, your skills contribute 0.39 HP and your attributes contribute 0.64 HP according to our current understanding. That gives you 1.03 HP gained which doesn't make sense so seems we've got something a little wrong unless I've calculated wrong. Although it comes out a 0.99 HP if I ignore the in-between level skill progress on your attributes, wouldn't have thought it works like that though.

One possibility is that you don't count things from 0 but from 1 (since everything starts on 1). That would reduce your skills to about 0.38 HP and your attributes to 0.54 HP. That's 0.92 HP total. Another possibility is that we've got the distribution from attributes wrong.

Its quite interesting anyway, as I understood it we thought HP started near 89 but it looks like that's not the case, could even be that it starts on 88 dead.
 
If the starting HP doesn't start exactly on 88, then couldn't that explain either one of those possibilities, depending on how the rounding works?
 
Oleg said:
If the starting HP doesn't start exactly on 88, then couldn't that explain either one of those possibilities, depending on how the rounding works?
Click to expand...

I thought not if it adds up to 1.03 HP, since then starting health would be 87. However you're right, you'd have the health from the skills and attributes at 1 which contributes more than 0.03 so you're real starting health would indeed be more than 88 HP. Thanks Oleg.

So basically we need another few data sets to help pin it down exactly.
 
Jimmy B said:
I thought not if it adds up to 1.03 HP, since then starting health would be 87.
Click to expand...

Yes, thinking about this again, you're right - when the gain is more than 1 it can't be possible to go only from 88 to 89, whatever the rounding system. Unless there was a 0.03 HP leap in one go, which I'm sure can't be possible.
 
Oleg said:
Yes, thinking about this again, you're right - when the gain is more than 1 it can't be possible to go only from 88 to 89, whatever the rounding system. Unless there was a 0.03 HP leap in one go, which I'm sure can't be possible.
Click to expand...

No but its actually OK. If you count everything from 0 as we normally do then it gives 1.03 unless I've miscalculated. But in that case, when you start you have a little HP from the skills that are all at 1. The attributes then contribute 0.1 HP making the real starting HP above 88, its just the a 'zero' HP that is below it.
 
Jimmy B said:
No but its actually OK. If you count everything from 0 as we normally do then it gives 1.03 unless I've miscalculated. But in that case, when you start you have a little HP from the skills that are all at 1. The attributes then contribute 0.1 HP making the real starting HP above 88, its just the a 'zero' HP that is below it.
Click to expand...

OK, it's taking me a little time to get my head round this but I think I get it. So the HP actually gained here (according to the formula) is 1.03 - 0.1 = 0.93

I'm something of a latecomer to this thread so forgive me if I'm asking about something that's been discussed before.
 
a very nice thread :> +rep, gl on the research!
 
Glad i found this thread...i've been at 113 HP for a while so hopefully gonna get a point soon. When i do i'll record all skills and then update when i hit 115. +rep coming.
 
Jimmy B said:
Galad that's really useful thanks. If you could repeat the process when you get you're second HP that'd be really useful!

By my reckoning, your skills contribute 0.39 HP and your attributes contribute 0.64 HP according to our current understanding. That gives you 1.03 HP gained which doesn't make sense so seems we've got something a little wrong unless I've calculated wrong. Although it comes out a 0.99 HP if I ignore the in-between level skill progress on your attributes, wouldn't have thought it works like that though.

One possibility is that you don't count things from 0 but from 1 (since everything starts on 1). That would reduce your skills to about 0.38 HP and your attributes to 0.54 HP. That's 0.92 HP total. Another possibility is that we've got the distribution from attributes wrong.

Its quite interesting anyway, as I understood it we thought HP started near 89 but it looks like that's not the case, could even be that it starts on 88 dead.
Click to expand...

At these levels a skill or attribute gain can be pretty big. So you can go past the exact mark for getting a new HP. Also fractional skills can have at these low levels introduce a high uncertainty for the calculation. Use NRF to also get the fractional skills.

Cheers
Richard
(ingame Siam)
 
Jimmy B said:
Although it comes out a 0.99 HP if I ignore the in-between level skill progress on your attributes, wouldn't have thought it works like that though.
Click to expand...

I enter my skill values by hand into entropedia, ignoring the decimals indicated by the yellow "progress to next skill point" bar, and the calculations in jdegres tool are always exactly on spot (besides health though), so it might very well be only FULL skill points contribute!

May i ask you if you calced in the minimal contribution by 1 in mining/drilling/surveying/prospecting/and so on?
 
wizzszz said:
I enter my skill values by hand into entropedia, ignoring the decimals indicated by the yellow "progress to next skill point" bar, and the calculations in jdegres tool are always exactly on spot (besides health though), so it might very well be only FULL skill points contribute!

May i ask you if you calced in the minimal contribution by 1 in mining/drilling/surveying/prospecting/and so on?
Click to expand...

The error margin in the attributes is still too high. I just used the value 40 for making it easy to calculated, I already assumed that it is wrong for at least one of them, just don't know if it intelligence, [strenght (not the case)] or psyche, and by how much.

Athletics 70...............=> 0,129375
Courage 52................=> 0,159375
Dexterity 6................=> 0,006250
Perception 3..............=> 0,001250
Combat reflexes 57.....=> 0,035000
Rifle 62.....................=> 0,038125
Weapons Handling 12..=> 0,006875

Non Attributes => 0,37625
Basically 0.377 HP since I still believe that decimals in skills do count (not sure about centesimals)

Assuming Agility at 1 HP per 40 Levels
Agility ~12.4 ~> 0,285 HP

Assuming Intelligence also at 1 HP per 40 levels (which I doubt currently)
Intelligence ~3.8 ~> 0,07 HP
Psyche ~8.3 ~> 0,1825 HP

Attributes ~> 0.538 HP

Overall gain 0,915 HP


Newcommers don't start on level 0 do they ?
Agility 12.4 = 1+11.4
11.4/40 = 0,285
 
Rep for wizzszz for keeping promise, and I will post my second health gain and skills as soon as it happens. Shouldn't take too long anymore.
 
what if the 1 point from stamina counts?
 
I had my Stam at 1 for some reason even though I having been playing for some time. I submitted a case with MA and a few days later logged on to find my Stam at 9 and had another HP!

I use jdegres chipping page to watch my progress to unlocks and found that my HP's where off by about 1.75 ~ 1.5 now they are on the right HP.
 
RE: error margins

after skilling out some strength and psyche recently, the 'strength gain' for me is not random, but a hidden accumulation of points. the 'activation of gain' itself is random, I feel.

Eg.

Strength 32.3, 40 hits no increase,
41st hit initiates a skill increase, brings strength to 32.8.

I don't feel that hit 41 gave me 0.5 skill. I think 41 hits gave me that skill, but the 41st activated it.

Similarly with health gains: you will need to take a broadsection of N_skills people to resolve the matrix fully, with 1/sqrt(N_skills) error margin.

Guess you already know this though :p
 
YoBuk said:
I had my Stam at 1 for some reason even though I having been playing for some time. I submitted a case with MA and a few days later logged on to find my Stam at 9 and had another HP!

I use jdegres chipping page to watch my progress to unlocks and found that my HP's where off by about 1.75 ~ 1.5 now they are on the right HP.
Click to expand...

When did you create your avatar ?
 
Got my second health gain.

Uploaded here

And my skills

Relevant

Agility 22
Intelligence 7
Psyche 10
Combat reflexes 169
Rifle 215
Weapons Handling 64
Athletics 171
Courage 136
Dexterity 24
Perception 13

And non relevant

Aim 29
Inflict ranged damage 40
Weapons Handling 64
Laser weaponry 279
Evade 280
Alertness 74
Anatomy 161
Diagnosis 2
First Aid 4
Concentration 80
Sweat Gathering 388
 
Thanks Galad :)

Change in skills since last time contributes another 0.68 HP by my reckoning, needing 0.32 HP from the attributes.

Attributes changed 9.8 Agility, 3.5 Intelligence, 2.5 Psyche. Assuming 1 HP per 40 for all of them gives 0.395 which is a bit too high. Eliminating Intel all together gives 0.31, elimating Psyche altogether instead gives 0.33.

I'll look at it a bit more later. I didn't look at the skills page when I was in-game, does the health bar progress along in green as you go up? If so that'll make it a lot easier to nail all this.
 
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