Solution for market saturation

[Essi]

Here's a repost of my old permanent decay solution. With new item dropping rates permanent decay is again a bit more relevant topic. Ok.. here it goes:

Two decays
All items have two kinds of decays. In addition to normal TT-value decay there's more subtle aging decay. Aging decay dont affect TT-value at all but it does affect item performance and appearance.

Of course raw materials, skill chips etc dont have age decay (as they supposely dont have any decay anyway).

With age decay:
- clothes will lose color saturation thus become more grey and more blurry textured
- weapons will look older and become slower and more inaccurate
- armors will look more battered and protect less
- etc

Repairing
Repairing TT decay goes like nowdays in repairing terminal. Aging decay can be only repaired by a crafter or a tailor. Crafters need components and raw materials to repair items. Tailors need tailoring materials and paints to make clothes look new again. This repairing is done in special trade window. Customer puts item and peds/pedcard to that window and agrees cost rate and repair amount with crafter. Crafter can then use materials to repair that item. All (and only) successful repairs are decreased from customers money at agreed rate.

So customer pays only for repaired amount. For crafter its like crafting items expect that successed products are sold immediately with set price. Thus customer cant lose in this.

Of course anyone should be able to use own materials and skills to repair own stuff.

Decaying
Age decay happens in real time as the name suggest. Age decay is balanced with normal decay (means that normal decay is lowered a bit). But since age decay doesnt affect TT-value it can be cheaper to TT low/mid level items instead of repairing. If item age decays all the way, it will finally break down. It means that items leaves the game.

Stasis storage
Special stasis storage with minimal usage fee will keep items without letting them to age decay at all.

Effects
Age decay will be balanced with normal decay so for items you use regularly cost will be same or cheaper. But because age decay takes place even if item is not used its not wise to keep lots of stuff around. Using stasis storage will be cheap but still many will TT-item instead of paying a pec to store it.

This all will of course make people to get rid of TT-items and stop market saturation. Life of common items will be short because its more reasonable to TT them before aging decay really takes place. Now every person wont have all those common items around but only dedicated traders will invest in putting stuff regularly into stasis storage. This probably will make trading a bit more complex but also more profitable for those dedicate themselves for it.

• All very common items are more likely to be TT'ed than repaired because aging decay wont affect TT-value.
• Crafters and tailors get good way to skill when repairing aging decays.
• Crafters and tailors are also needed even if they couldnt craft any items that sell.
• Players can keep their uber items. Only repairing them is a bit more complex but not necessarily any more expensive.

 

[Knoop]

If a crafter are the only one to repair the age decay, then you need a lending system. Then I didnt read any further..

 

[Essi]

If a crafter are the only one to repair the age decay, then you need a lending system. Then I didnt read any further..

I wrote that the repair happens in special trade window. You put item, money and negotiate price. Repairing happens in that window. Crafter never gets the item to his inventory.

 

[Aziphirael]

It sounds very much like the system that Marco proposed a while ago, but got whined at by the community so it was quietly dropped

I do think that some sort of "perm decay" would be required, even if it just means that with age it gets harder and harder to repair an item. Or if its a weapon or item, it needs to be fixed with spare parts.

 

[Devil Doll]

I like it. We need a more realistic system and we need something to control the prices.

DD

 

[Svetlana]

Yes I like the idea in general. It would behove many ppl, not simply crafters. Suddenly many old ubers with uber weapons would actually have to repair up due to age... perhaps the older a weapon/fap the more repairs it take?
This means levelling out the playing field, if only slightly, for the rest of the players.
Of course, it also means more money to pay for repairs... which is of course the downsize... not sure how many ppl would want to think of any more repair costs or keep track of when an item is aging.

 

[Zee]

I really like the idea essi!

When other people talk of perm decay it frightens me to think of my investment becomming 2 cents..

 

[Dash Smashing]

i like it. i'd be interested to see MA's proposal on your take of it.. =)

but still people consider it as an investment.. for those who are in for the lONG haul.. i really doubt they want to see 'age decay' at all. (especially if they havent logged in awhile..)

perhaps if these statis fields were for long-term storage? 10peds keeps the 1 item safe for five years? .. if the item is removed it loses stasis and will cost another 10 peds for 5 years

? .. maybe? i dunno.

of course age-decay would have to be a very small cost. <VERY small MA.. >

 

[Mr Claude]

Here's a repost of my old permanent decay solution. With new item dropping rates permanent decay is again a bit more relevant topic. Ok.. here it goes:

Two decays
All items have two kinds of decays. In addition to normal TT-value decay there's more subtle aging decay. Aging decay dont affect TT-value at all but it does affect item performance and appearance.

Of course raw materials, skill chips etc dont have age decay (as they supposely dont have any decay anyway).

With age decay:
- clothes will lose color saturation thus become more grey and more blurry textured
- weapons will look older and become slower and more inaccurate
- armors will look more battered and protect less
- etc

Repairing
Repairing TT decay goes like nowdays in repairing terminal. Aging decay can be only repaired by a crafter or a tailor. Crafters need components and raw materials to repair items. Tailors need tailoring materials and paints to make clothes look new again. This repairing is done in special trade window. Customer puts item and peds/pedcard to that window and agrees cost rate and repair amount with crafter. Crafter can then use materials to repair that item. All (and only) successful repairs are decreased from customers money at agreed rate.

So customer pays only for repaired amount. For crafter its like crafting items expect that successed products are sold immediately with set price. Thus customer cant lose in this.

Of course anyone should be able to use own materials and skills to repair own stuff.

Decaying
Age decay happens in real time as the name suggest. Age decay is balanced with normal decay (means that normal decay is lowered a bit). But since age decay doesnt affect TT-value it can be cheaper to TT low/mid level items instead of repairing. If item age decays all the way, it will finally break down. It means that items leaves the game.

Stasis storage
Special stasis storage with minimal usage fee will keep items without letting them to age decay at all.

Effects
Age decay will be balanced with normal decay so for items you use regularly cost will be same or cheaper. But because age decay takes place even if item is not used its not wise to keep lots of stuff around. Using stasis storage will be cheap but still many will TT-item instead of paying a pec to store it.

This all will of course make people to get rid of TT-items and stop market saturation. Life of common items will be short because its more reasonable to TT them before aging decay really takes place. Now every person wont have all those common items around but only dedicated traders will invest in putting stuff regularly into stasis storage. This probably will make trading a bit more complex but also more profitable for those dedicate themselves for it.

• All very common items are more likely to be TT'ed than repaired because aging decay wont affect TT-value.
• Crafters and tailors get good way to skill when repairing aging decays.
• Crafters and tailors are also needed even if they couldnt craft any items that sell.
• Players can keep their uber items. Only repairing them is a bit more complex but not necessarily any more expensive.

HELL NO !!

Why Essi ?
Why would I need to complicate things ?Why can't it go like it is right now ?
I don't need or want to depend on someone to continue playing PE when I want . If a crafter can repair the gear I'm using to hunt/mine it will mean that the higher lvl of repair/skills a crafter has , the less I have to pay for it so I need to go to the most skilled crafter If that guy isn't online , tough luck for me if my equipment breaks
You're saying the ubers will be able to keep their gear with this method , yet mid lvl stuff would more likely be TTed. So ....mid lvl players gotta go through even much trouble buying mid lvl gear at a certain time cuz it's better this way , yet more complex .N00bs joining will have to learn even more about this double decay stuff when it was easier , some crafters will charge ridiculous amounts of money for repairs as this will come and so on .
I don't want double standard decay , one decay is enuff for me , less complication is better !
Can you imagine the next wave of people saying "MA is soooo greedy they had to add another tipe of decay, it's not enuff the loot sucks bla bla bla bla bla blaaaaaaaa" ??

 

[Essi]

HELL NO !!

Why Essi ?
Why would I need to complicate things ?Why can't it go like it is right now ?

To stop market saturation.

Most items dont have any tt+ value at all. Crafting has almost no role in pe etc.

Any item that drops even somewhat regularly loses value really quickly. Now this works somehow as number of players is increasing. Imagine what happens when number of new players per month starts to decrese... slowly all items that drop at any rate start to lose their value. As crafters skills increase all crafted items lose value. New items will be coming all the time, no items (except totally tt-stuff) ever leave the game and no new buyers - economy would collapse totally.

This aging decay scheme would take care automatically that for any player its more economical to TT those items that are common enough. Also it would create markets for very common stuff and help newbies who loot pixie and such a lot.

I don't need or want to depend on someone to continue playing PE when I want . If a crafter can repair the gear I'm using to hunt/mine it will mean that the higher lvl of repair/skills a crafter has , the less I have to pay for it so I need to go to the most skilled crafter If that guy isn't online , tough luck for me if my equipment breaks

Would you really let your equipment break down instead of paying couple pecs more?

If you would need to repair aging decay once per month or even once per week to keep them at top performance, the time until breakdown would prolly be 10x longer.

You're saying the ubers will be able to keep their gear with this method , yet mid lvl stuff would more likely be TTed. So ....mid lvl players gotta go through even much trouble buying mid lvl gear at a certain time cuz it's better this way , yet more complex .

Easy: If you get it easily at your hand - you buy new one. If you dont get - you repair it.

N00bs joining will have to learn even more about this double decay stuff when it was easier , some crafters will charge ridiculous amounts of money for repairs as this will come and so on .

I agree that it will be more complex but I dont think its too much for anyone. (When comparing to the essentials you need to understand about this game anyway...)

I dont think it would possible for any crafter to ask ridiculous prices because people would repair their stuff themselves then. Also I believe that competition would keep prices low. Think how much for example Dante-amp would cost if every crafter in PE would be able to craft them at low cost

Aging decay is not ment to be huge. Even very small decay would do the thing. Most people, when being able to save even 1 pec, will do it.

I don't want double standard decay , one decay is enuff for me , less complication is better !
Can you imagine the next wave of people saying "MA is soooo greedy they had to add another tipe of decay, it's not enuff the loot sucks bla bla bla bla bla blaaaaaaaa" ??

Like I said it would be compensated with TT-decay. Actually if you use mostly TT-stuff, it will lower the costs. And some will whine no matter what happens.

 

[Skam]

Its seems the items in loot have stabled. In that case its not needed.

Or is it still like that for you?

 

[Nicko]

I don’t like the idea. Why should hunters suffer because of the lack of effort Mindark has put towards balancing the crafting business? Sure it would be a quick fix, and it would be great with the added income for the crafters. However, the truth is that very few hunters actually makes a profit on a regular basis. This would just become an added tax a player would have to pay in order to become a hunter. So in order to make things fair, if this was to go through, crafters should have to pay a set fee every time they use the crafting/tailoring machine. This fee could then go into the loot pool and help the hunters pay for the added decay.

Guess what im trying to say is.. keep the system as-is. It might not be perfect but.. its as good as its going to get.


Nicko

 

[ZzaK]

I say what ive always said about crafting


GET BACK THE OLD SYSTEM!!!!!

 

[Rain Man]

I kind of like the idea - I've never really liked the thought of permanent decay but this seems to be an acceptable substitute.

 

[Essi]

Currently PE economy works since more players mean more buyers. Lets assume that about 100 nemesis parts drops per month and about 100 new players want to buy it. Good - the price stays.

However sooner or later number of new players per month will drop.

Imagine how long for example nemesis armor will have value if there will be 50 or 100 extra nemesis parts per month. And this will happen pretty quickly to any item that drops even somewhat commonly. It can take only couple months when people realize that all items will become only cheaper (except for couple uber rare ones). Then markets pretty much halt.

In the end, no item that you loot will ever have any value over TT (even raw materials are worthless since no crafter/tailor can sell any items everyone already has).

Without permanent decay -like solutions MA can only cope that by introducing better monsters and better equipment all the time. Or they can make items drop less (which is one of the most complained things).

 

[SIBUK]

This is a hard problem to find a solution to. The problem is that nomatter how many people play this game, if the items keep dropping then the market will become saturated with them at some time. I think that MA should leave the current items as they are, but they should start adding items that are 'use once' items and cant be repaired. Once they decay to 0 ped then they dissapear from your inventory and they are used up.

Maybe MA should says "Ok, after 100 days from today all items in game that currently exist will be permanent, but any new items that drop will be 'use once' items" and that will give people plenty of chance to prepare. I think it would be very interesting to see what kind of prices even the cheapest and crappest items would sell for by the time day 100 comes.

 

[Hally]

i like sibuks idea theres simply no marked for 9/10 of the crafted products which makes PE crafting just about the worst crafting system in any mmorpg i ever played tried or even heard of

my field being crafted armor i could want for the crafted version atleast be cool looking with broad shoulders and high thighs if not even show armors ie theres no reason that samurai or dragon armor arent really cool looking ? i personaly would love such a set

 

[Essi]

Sibuk its a simple idea but it would remove all future uber items (they wouldnt be so expensive since no one pays thousands of peds for gun that lasts couple months).

Also it would make blp weapons really crappy unless they are seriously tweaked. I think in that sceme items should have pretty equal decays and TT values or item drop rates would need to raised a lot. Who otherwise would buy a high end blp gun which lasts about 1k ammo?

 

[Dirk]

My opinion on perm decay should be well known by now, but for those who missed it the last few dozen times, "No, perm decay = bad"

It's worth noting that it's not even needed, items in PE do not perm decay but they do become obselete. Over time as PE grows and develops, the mobs get bigger, faster and stronger, and bigger guns are found. The Justifier Mk1 sold in the TT was once suitable for hunting, now it's not, it's obsolete.

Sure you can use one of these guns if you choose to, just the same as I can use a sharp stone to open a can of beans.

To recap: If I buy an item, I want to keep it, I dont want it fading away into dust. Gathering dust, is ok tho.

 

[Essi]

It's worth noting that it's not even needed, items in PE do not perm decay but they do become obselete. Over time as PE grows and develops, the mobs get bigger, faster and stronger, and bigger guns are found. The Justifier Mk1 sold in the TT was once suitable for hunting, now it's not, it's obsolete.

Sorry but I disagree here. I hate when games cope their poor balance by introducing bigger and stronger mobs and more powerful guns every now and then to balance out game.

Next year all mobs have 300+ health and mod merc is minimum needed to kill them. Then year after that you need at least 200 dam/sec to kill medium mobs. After some years, at least 900 dam/sec is needed to kill even low level mobs. etc...

A bit caricatyrical but IMHO thats worst direction PE can take.

 

[Dirk]

It's called progress.


I know you disagree with me, lots of people do and there is no need to apologise for it.

 

[Joey]

Although this is a nice idea with perm decay, but I believe the old taxation(perm decay or age decay) will kill certain people. The poor people(Noobs) will get poorer, the middle class will lose their investments that they have worked hard to keep. But the High level players will benefit more since they are the only ones who are skilled enough to do this and therefore become better and richer and the cycle goes on... And most of the richer and higher leveled players are the ones who are hording all the materials for crafting or items. Not the noobs, they are lucky if they get a pixie armor. It will also turn off players who want to try and play the game and buy things that will eventually disappear. So basically, age decay or perm decay , which ever you want to call it is really bad.

 

[Essi]

Although this is a nice idea with perm decay, but I believe the old taxation(perm decay or age decay) will kill certain people. The poor people(Noobs) will get poorer, the middle class will lose their investments that they have worked hard to keep.

I dont understand...

As I said it would be balanced with normal decay actually making using common items cheaper (since with them you never pay aging decay but get a new one).

The result I was after was:
- decay on very common items will be cheaper
- using items you use all the time will be cheaper or same
- keeping items you dont use regularly will be more expensive

Thus those who would suffer most is people who have loads of uncommon stuff they dont actively use (therefore they dont benefit from TT-value balancement).

As I said it makes trading bit more complex since your goods actually slowly ages but on otherhand it most likely would take away trading from occasional traders and benefit professional traders.

 

[Kjetil]

Interesting ideas here.

What I think have to be done is to introduce a combination of perm decay, harder mobs and higher level weapons, tools, armor, etc.

Those weapons, tools, armor, etc should need to be repaired with items that have perm decay. F.ex low level weapons should be repaired with changing basic filters, etc. to fully operate.
Higher level stuff should need higher level components. Example level 10 engines, etc.

Also better higher level crafted weapons should soon be introduced. Maybe with higher decay, but also to can manage to kill higher level mobs. Players will have more and more health and sure there also need to be better and better mobs out there. For ppl without health, it can be possible to kill a large mob with a large weapon. Of course veterans then will kill it much more economical with exsisting weapons then a noob with a uber weapon.

/Kjetil

 

[raeky]

I think the best solution to making the crafting more imporant and to keep the market from colapseing is to:

1. remove all items from loots, period. Even mod faps, everything. No more complete items.
2. Introduce better blueprints that are compariable, stat wise, to the looted versions. Why not blueprints for the EXACT looted versions again? Mod FAP bp anyone (level 20, 30 or more, thousands and thousands of peds a click..)? ;-)
3. Make all attachments, weapons, armors and tools be able to be broken down into componenet parts. Like a Imk2 would break down into 20 or so individual parts. This breakdown wouldn't be individual items in your inventory, but a new UI interface screen for item repair, will list and detail all the component parts, their condition, what parts are needed for the repair, how much money etc..
4. Blueprints for these items change as follows:
...a. The item blueprint becomes creates a complete item with basic components. This would include all its component parts already made and those that require replacement will be made full condition, those that can be repaired by the TT would be of random TT amount.
...b. All the items will also have their component part blueprints available in the blueprint books. For example the imk2 would require 20 components, 10 of which are unrepairable. Those 10 items become blueprints in the blueprint book for weapons. Some of those components would be standards that other weapons would use. Some would be unique to just the imk2.
5. To repair an item you put it in a repair terminal. It breaks it down and lists its stats. TT value of each part and total TT value. Unrepairable items condition and estimated time to failure (how many uses). When you repair it in the TT unrepairable components are replaced (if you have the replacement in your inventory) when they're completely decayed. Repairable components are repaired from your ped card.
6. You get a new item in your inventory, a tool bag. This is like a universal box/bag that would hold all your replacement parts for your items. You can drag replacement components into it and they don't take inventory space/items or weight when in the tool box. When a component of your item your useing that is unrepairable breaks and you have a replacement in your tool bag it is automaticly put in your item without you even noticeing. A notice would appear that X component broke and was relaced from your tool bag. But your fire rate or whatever your doing would see no service interuption.
7. You will be required to keep spare components in your tool bag, these components are only craftable, and therefore crafters will have a never ending market for these components.
8. All items that already exist in the game would require their component part blueprints to already exist when the change happens. There would be FAR more blueprints for a crafter to manage, therefore the blueprint book and Tech NPC interfaces should change. All the looted items that no blueprint exists for yet should have their component part blueprints available to buy from the Tech NPC. All crafted items, if you own the blueprint, you'll automaticly get the component part blueprints for that. The UI for the crafting book should be changed to better accomodate a large number of blueprints and easy finding of them. Instead of only 6 or whatever blueprints per page you should be able to see all blueprints. Be able to access the component part blueprints of any item by a list of their main items, etc.. The UI should be changed to better handled the new number of blueprints and make it easier to find a specific component bp for a specific item.

This new system would require hunters and miners to buy and carry arround spare parts for their items, but those items should always be available in the auction or through shopkeepers. If not many people can make a speciifc component cheap then stock up on a bunch of replacement parts when you can...

The economy can't contiune forever the way it is now, imho. So something like this must be done. ;-)

 

[cacail]

I like this idea, Reaky... The only point i'd change is the adj, mod and imp version of the items... I'd prefer to get them by the crafting hof instead of those precious stones like actually. In fact, i've never understoof why MA haven't made the crafting hof like this. It'd be far more enjoyable to see a adj ek-1000 appear in the loot window instead of a crappy diamond, imo

 

[silverbane]

I'd prolly sell out if perm decay of any sort was to be implemented. To damn hard to keep track of. As somebody said. Too complicated. I wanna be able to login after 1-2 months and find everything as it was when i logged out. If not, screw it.

*shrug*

 

[Kjetil]

I'd prolly sell out if perm decay of any sort was to be implemented. To damn hard to keep track of. As somebody said. Too complicated. I wanna be able to login after 1-2 months and find everything as it was when i logged out. If not, screw it.

*shrug*

I guess decay anyway will only effect item that you are using.
No effect on items in storage or if ppl does not play for a month or 100.

/Kjetil