Question: Taxes on Planet vs LA

[Fifth]

R.i.p. Ma!

Mindark take about 8%, plenty of 92% TT return threads on the forum. Of that 8% half is now split on Calypso to MA and the other half to CLD owners.

We all remember how it started, all the brave new worlds governed out of the mighty MindArk's Main Office:

MindArk was doing the programming, Planet Partners provided new content and the revenue was split between them. Life Was a Flower!
One day, however, evil Mega saw it, and decided this has to stop. Who the frak needs this MA anyway?
So, Mega stepped up and cancelled the money flow that was going towards MA. Enough is enough! said Mega.

What will u do if left w/o income overnight? Have a castle? Sell it. House? Car? Wife? Sell em. U gotta eat afterall.
It was a long and strenuous struggle, but the end was inevitable - eventually MA starved to death. R.I.P.!!!

Soo... that's why we have those problems with bugfixing lately. It's all Mega's fault!

 

[billairboy]

My best runs no matter if hunt or mine, always happend on taxed LAs.

Nothing else to say, draw your own conclusions

That's probably because most players and miners don't like to hunt/mine in LA so it's more left to find for those who does.

 

[billairboy]

What is your point??

MA earns money when we deposits and we gets peds instead of RL money. The peds are consumed in game. MA splits some of their USD revenue with planet partners. The revenue sharing is based on how much peds are consumed on each planet.

 

[Fifth]

What is your point??

U don't dig irony much, do u?

My point is, neither you nor Mega haven't done ur homework. The revenue while hunting on LA is divided between 3: MA, PP and LA owner. Calypso PP income is further divided between PP and CLD owners.

Mega speaks only about 2: MA and LA owner. To mess it up even more he says "half is now split on Calypso to MA and the other half to CLD owners."
Rrright. Suppose that's how it works on Calypso. So, if it's not Calypso but, say, Ark, what then? half is now split on Arkadia to MA and the other half to... humm?... maybe AUD owners? What about Arkadia PP? They get nothing? Doesn't make sense, right?
Therefore i assumed it was slip of the tongue maybe? He must have meant to say it's split between Planet Calypso PP and CLD owners. But even now it doesn't make sense, cuz now MA is cut off the picture.
In a word it's a mess, any way u look at it.

MA earns money when we deposits and we gets peds instead of RL money. The peds are consumed in game. MA splits some of their USD revenue with planet partners. The revenue sharing is based on how much peds are consumed on each planet.

So u saying the base for the revenue sharing is deposits? Somehow, i can't find any references to this theory in any of the official documents. Have some insider info maybe? Info that proves all those documents are fake?

Just look at this mess u guys manage to create out of a very simple matter and tell me it's not fraking hilarious?

 

[Rampsy]

To mess it up even more he says "half is now split on Calypso to MA and the other half to CLD owners."
Rrright. Suppose that's how it works on Calypso. So, if it's not Calypso but, say, Ark, what then? half is now split on Arkadia to MA and the other half to... humm?... maybe AUD owners? What about Arkadia PP? They get nothing? Doesn't make sense, right?

You seriously don't have a clue about the history of this game do you?

Arkadia is 50% AUD & 50% PP.

but CALYPSO HAS NO PP!!!!!

That's the whole freaking point, Calypso had a PP, but they couldn't pay the 6million to MindArk that was promised.
Because of that MindArk broke the deal and made the CLD's for 6million (60000 x 1000 PED = 60million ped or 6 million $).

So calypso has NO PP... The CLD users are Calypso's PP.

Please if you have no idea about how this game works, just shut the f. up and stop acting like you know it all, cause apparently you don't know a sh. about this game's history

 

[Piotr]

You seriously don't have a clue about the history of this game do you?

Arkadia is 50% AUD & 50% PP.

but CALYPSO HAS NO PP!!!!!

That's the whole freaking point, Calypso had a PP, but they couldn't pay the 6million to MindArk that was promised.
Because of that MindArk broke the deal and made the CLD's for 6million (60000 x 1000 PED = 60million ped or 6 million $).

So calypso has NO PP... The CLD users are Calypso's PP.

Please if you have no idea about how this game works, just shut the f. up and stop acting like you know it all, cause apparently you don't know a sh. about this game's history

Same goes for u

 

[Rampsy]

Same goes for u

I'm playing since 2003, think the game was 2 months old when I started.
Nuf said.

 

[Serica]

You seriously don't have a clue about the history of this game do you?

Arkadia is 50% AUD & 50% PP.

but CALYPSO HAS NO PP!!!!!

That's the whole freaking point, Calypso had a PP, but they couldn't pay the 6million to MindArk that was promised.
Because of that MindArk broke the deal and made the CLD's for 6million (60000 x 1000 PED = 60million ped or 6 million $).

So calypso has NO PP... The CLD users are Calypso's PP.

Please if you have no idea about how this game works, just shut the f. up and stop acting like you know it all, cause apparently you don't know a sh. about this game's history

Rampsy, you're a bit wrong there...

The Calypso Planet Partner is Planet Calypso AB, as clearly stated in the MindArk financial statements.

Planet Calypso AB is the operator and developer of Planet Calypso, Entropia Universe's first and
most active planet

While Planet Calypso AB may be a wholly owned subsidiary company of MindArk, it is nevertheless a separate corporate entity.
The Planet Partner Gross Revenue is calculated the same for all PP's - including Planet Calypso AB.

The CLD holders share only 50% of the Planet Partner Gross Revenue, as specified in the CLD FAQ: (http://www.entropiauniverse.com/bulletin/buzz/2011/11/16/Calypso-Land-Lot-Deeds.xml)

 

[Piotr]

I'm playing since 2003, think the game was 2 months old when I started.
Nuf said.

Only shows age not always yields wisdom
As Serica pointed out for starter one of ur wrongs

Also this line:
Arkadia is 50% AUD & 50% PP.
WTF do u mean? Arkadia team is PP AKA Planet partner, AU (not AUD) is part of arkadia which included in their revenue generated and tax on AU has nothing to do with revenue at all.

 

[Ace Flyster]

Rampsy,


You clearly have no idea how it works, i suggest you stop trying


Rgds

Ace

 

[Serica]

I should also point out that there's a significant distinction between the source of the income streams for CLD and AUD:

CLD payouts are each 1/60,000th of a 50% share of the Gross Planet Partner Revenue, which MindArk describes as:

A. Planet Partner Gross Revenue is calculated and paid by MindArk to the Planet Partner, and includes avatar activity on Planet Calypso, along with the activity of Calypso avatars in Space and on other Entropia Universe planets. Avatar activity includes deterioration of items, as well as various other fees and avatar activities.

Arkadia Underground is more like a single Land Area the size of a server, and the AUD payouts are essentially a 1/200,000th share of the daily tax from that Land Area. They're calculated and paid in the same way that any other land area taxes are, just split between multiple players instead of one.

 

[Fifth]

[snip... unimportant and OT part]

As i see it, the goal of this thread is to try to figure out what are the revenue streams for PP's, MA and LA owner based upon. To be precise - what's the revenue base for each of them and the exact percentage that each of them receives.

Once we have all the 3 pieces form this puzzle it's possible to answer several very interesting questions.
Is the LA tax an extra on top of the universal PP and MA revenue, or not?
But that's not all we get. As an additional bonus we finally get an exact answer to the ancient question What is the average TT-return in EU for the average player?

U can see where this is going, right? Why in this case statistics for globals on EL or calculating backwards from the hunting logs on the forum is not good enough?


Edit: Which is also quite possibly the reason why we may never get those exact numbers... Then again, if we never try it we'll never know.

 

[billairboy]

[snip... unimportant and OT part]

As i see it, the goal of this thread is to try to figure out what are the revenue streams for PP's, MA and LA owner based upon. To be precise - what's the revenue base for each of them and the exact percentage that each of them receives.

Once we have all the 3 pieces form this puzzle it's possible to answer several very interesting questions.
Is the LA tax an extra on top of the universal PP and MA revenue, or not?
But that's not all we get. As an additional bonus we finally get an exact answer to the ancient question What is the average TT-return in EU for the average player?

U can see where this is going, right? Why in this case statistics for globals on EL or calculating backwards from the hunting logs on the forum is not good enough?

But that is the problem..... the don't take any share of the loot, they take a share of the decay, fees and other "PED consuming" things, at least if the old MA statement that they take their money from "decay" is true.

Sure, it's not totally impossible that is not the case and all consumed peds are going back to the "loot-pool" and MA takes their share in form of a "tax" from the loot. But It's hard to think they would would construct their system like that. More likely is that when you repair your items all or a part of it is taken away from the circulation and is MA/PP share.

Problem is, it's close to impossible to know for sure how it works, when are the peds takein way from the "circulation". At the moment when you repair your stuff? Or at the moment your loot?

 

[Rampsy]

Rampsy, you're a bit wrong there...

The Calypso Planet Partner is Planet Calypso AB, as clearly stated in the MindArk financial statements.

While Planet Calypso AB may be a wholly owned subsidiary company of MindArk, it is nevertheless a separate corporate entity.
The Planet Partner Gross Revenue is calculated the same for all PP's - including Planet Calypso AB.

The CLD holders share only 50% of the Planet Partner Gross Revenue, as specified in the CLD FAQ: (http://www.entropiauniverse.com/bulletin/buzz/2011/11/16/Calypso-Land-Lot-Deeds.xml)

Yes I know, and that's what I said...
Planet Calypso AB is from MindArk, and if you would read my earlier posts, I said: 50% CLD & 50% for mindark for their development.
Planet Calypso AB is their development studio for Calypso...

 

[Fifth]

But that is the problem..... the don't take any share of the loot, they take a share of the decay, fees and other "PED consuming" things, at least if the old MA statement that they take their money from "decay" is true.

Sure, it's not totally impossible that is not the case and all consumed peds are going back to the "loot-pool" and MA takes their share in form of a "tax" from the loot. But It's hard to think they would would construct their system like that. More likely is that when you repair your items all or a part of it is taken away from the circulation and is MA/PP share.

Problem is, it's close to impossible to know for sure how it works, when are the peds takein way from the "circulation". At the moment when you repair your stuff? Or at the moment your loot?

The decay is calculated when it happens.
Meaning, you fly to Ark with full TT sword. You decay it down to the limit. Then u fly to Calypso and go to the rep terminal and repair it. Who gets the revenue? It will be Ark PP in this case, not Caly.

The fact that there's different revenue stream bases also means that even if we manage to get all the exact figures we still can't calculate the exact (overall average) TT-return for the average player. It's not that simple obviously... but we would be closer, much closer to the truth than we are now, with our neverending guessing game.

 

[Magnus Mag]

so will someone using melee pay more to MA/PP than someone using e.l.m weapon?
will he get worse return?
i doubt that..

the old question arises..what is "weapon decay"? is it the reduction of tt on the weapon or the cost to shoot the weapon (so ammo included)

 

[billairboy]

The decay is calculated when it happens.
Meaning, you fly to Ark with full TT sword. You decay it down to the limit. Then u fly to Calypso and go to the rep terminal and repair it. Who gets the revenue? It will be Ark PP in this case, not Caly.

You can't be sure about that. This is an example on things we impossible can know if we don't have information from MA, which we don't have. We can only guess.

The fact that there's different revenue stream bases also means that even if we manage to get all the exact figures we still can't calculate the exact (overall average) TT-return for the average player. It's not that simple obviously... but we would be closer, much closer to the truth than we are now, with our neverending guessing game.

But it's close to impossible to compare loot from an LA area and a non LA area. You would need the exact same mobs, hunted with the exact same intervals and also probably on the same server. Because we don't know if "loot-pools" are divided to mobs, servers, both, or is just one global loot-pool.

 

[Fifth]

so will someone using melee pay more to MA/PP than someone using e.l.m weapon?
will he get worse return?

Was waiting when someone comes up with this. This is a good question indeed.
Suppose it's not LA (to keep it simple). Also suppose MA and PP revenue streams are both based on decay (we can leave out crafting and auction fees in this case). IF all the above is indeed true, it seems yes, that's the case.

i doubt that..

This seems to be unfair, i agree. What's even worse there's no statistical evidence (=serious long term hunting logs) to support it.
So here we would run into our 1st problem. IF the revenue scheme is based on decay, why the actual results are different? Does it mean there's no correlation between TT-return and revenue base for PP/MA at all?
This rabbit hole might go much deeper than we imagine... But well, we haven't even got to the 1st step yet. We don't know for sure if it's all based on decay or not.

the old question arises..what is "weapon decay"? is it the reduction of tt on the weapon or the cost to shoot the weapon (so ammo included)

Answer is simple, ammo is not included. Decay =/= ammo... and please, don't ask how i know this, see below...

You can't be sure about that. This is an example on things we impossible can know if we don't have information from MA, which we don't have. We can only guess.

That's the point where i have to say i have information from reliable sources, but i'm not at liberty to disclose my sources. Which means u either take my word for it, try to obtain your own confirmation, or simply remain sceptical (which is perfectly fair ofc). Or even take off at wildly imaginary tangent as u do below... lol

 

[Magnus Mag]

More likely is that when you repair your items all or a part of it is taken away from the circulation and is MA/PP share.

you forget L stuff. would make no sense to only tax stuff when it gets repaired and lose all the L decay

 

[billairboy]

so will someone using melee pay more to MA/PP than someone using e.l.m weapon?
will he get worse return?
i doubt that..

the old question arises..what is "weapon decay"? is it the reduction of tt on the weapon or the cost to shoot the weapon (so ammo included)

It's not impossible they also count ammo as "decay", so in reality it 10% of ammo and repair that is "decayed". It can also by adjusted depending on how big share of one attack is decay cost and how much is ammo cost. Even if all of the melee decay should be "taken out of circulation", it has no effect for the player, it does not matter if it's decay or ammo cost for him.

 

[billairboy]

That's the point where i have to say i have information from reliable sources, but i'm not at liberty to disclose my sources. Which means u either take my word for it, try to obtain your own confirmation, or simply remain sceptical (which is perfectly fair ofc).

I will not argue about that, because it's the logic thing that it the decay is calculated and divided when it is used. But is also a bit harder for the system to keep track on. A bit simpler to do it when it is repaired.

 

[Ace Flyster]

I cant believe people are still arguing over melee.

It is simple.

If, for example, it takes 10 ped tt of melee weapon to kill a mob. The system pays back 9 ped. The difference, which is shared between MA and PP is 1ped.

Repair IS IRRELEVANT. All repair does, has ever done, and will EVER do, is transfere ped from your ped card to an item. You still have the ped as it is in the weapon rather than your ped card.

MA or PP never get your ped from bloody repairing....YOU STILL HAVE IT!!!


Rgds

Ace

 

[JD RACING]

its probly they take a percent of consumable like amo,pills, enhancers ,mining probes and a percent of decay like gun,fab, cloths and other such that decay and there maybe like just a percent like the amo say there 1000 ped use in amo and a person get back 900 ped in loot there could be a calculation at the end that 100 ped lost plus decay they get a just a certain percent of the profits at the end

at the end it all come down to the same

except for LA but that the get a percent of the loot say you got 100 ped and the tax is 10 percent you got 110 they kept 10 ped you paid the la tax to the owner off your loot

your decay and cant be counted in land tax loot return so like poeple posted 90 % loot they get back dont mean its 10 percent they charge that just fals

they have a % depend on what is use

 

[maiden]

So much info, so much info I am happy I started this thread, I learn so much.
1 question .... I saw when hunting pilled (1x & 1y=10 ped) the loot is a bit better as % while not pilled. Any ideea why ? Is like the decay used to kill a mob affects the loot ? Like decay is direct proportional with loot ? That is a bit weird because means eco=small loot.... ?!?!?!?!
2. I did a test hunting ambulimax on LA24, LA42, NEA and S of North Space Base, based on swirles I can say this:
NEA, LA24, N Space Base and LA42.... SO I guess somehow loot is affected by LA too ... and something like LA matters not the tax on it ... or dunno (I tested only 3k ped ammo) perhaps too low.... But for sure that's the order on how loot was for me .... good good poor awfull ....
All this thing with tax and the loot is mindfuck, since programming should be more damn easy... and I guess that the loot formula is that easy that we cannot imagine... you know humans trend to complicate all instead of simplify, but I am too damn noob to have a clue or opinion of about how things works around.
Keep talking and posting please, I learn so much and get so many ideas to test
Thank you all for your interest in this discussion I hope more ppl will care and join it.

 

[billairboy]

I cant believe people are still arguing over melee.

Is more the decay thing that is the problem, because the old "MA takes the decay of items" statement when melee weapons only have decay and no ammo cost. But it's it probably like you say that they maybe only takes 90% of the decay from decay from melee weapons and all decay from weapons that use ammo. Or the ammo also counts as "decay" and they take 10% of everything, that would be the easy solution.

 

[Ace Flyster]

Is more the decay thing that is the problem, because the old "MA takes the decay of items" statement when melee weapons only have decay and no ammo cost. But it's it probably like you say that they maybe only takes 90% of the decay from decay from melee weapons and all decay from weapons that use ammo. Or the ammo also counts as "decay" and they take 10% of everything, that would be the easy solution.

Decay, is the decay of the click. E.G.

Crafting: tt cost of materials in click.
Hunting: gun tt, ammo tt, or melee tt
Mining: Mining finder tt, probes tt, amp tt


Rgds

Ace

 

[Tryx]

Is more the decay thing that is the problem, because the old "MA takes the decay of items" statement when melee weapons only have decay and no ammo cost. But it's it probably like you say that they maybe only takes 90% of the decay from decay from melee weapons and all decay from weapons that use ammo. Or the ammo also counts as "decay" and they take 10% of everything, that would be the easy solution.

Pretty sure MA said that they make money of some of the decay, the "fact" they take all decay is playermade statement.

 

[xian]

My view on it :
- Planet taxes : revenue from share of decay, = cut on loot pool from money made by player turnover
- LA taxes : revenue on loot, money yet to be made = cut on loot pool from money yet to be made.

By loot pool, i mean money actually put in the game.

What you loot is a different story, dont talk me about 90 TT % bullshit, it just theoric and player made. It can be more than that, or actually way less. The actual mean is different for everybody.

 

[Nunoko]

Otherwise LA owner could set the % lowest and pretty much breakeven on every single hunt, which doesnt happen.

Pretty sure that MA will get 9% automaticly if the LA puts it on 1%.