The "ammo gets returned" theory

Well i dunno how it's done but i belive it to be taken into account in some way atleast. I have been hunting with 119% markup guns and 250% markup guns and i dont really see any real difference in the loot, ie i get the same back as i put in including the markup sort of.

It could be done in such a way as MA has regulated the droprate of guns to expect a certain markup on them and this markup is already taken into account sort of.

Strongly depends on what guns you use. For example, a CB19 at 119% compared to a Korss at 250% only has about 3-4% difference in dmg/pec, which can be the difference of just 2 more no-looters in a hunt. You will hardly notice it, as loot fluctuations are overwhelmingly larger.
 
I don't think MA will change it just because we know how it works. Only when we can exploit it, but that isn't likely, as that would mean their model is flawed.


Don't you think it's inevitable that it will be exploited once the system has been "cracked"?

That the model is flawed we know already, but that's al depending from the point of view.

I say it's flawed if I loose money.
MA will say it's flawed when they loose money.


But in the end, it's MA who's in control...
 
Don't you think it's inevitable that it will be exploited once the system has been "cracked"?

No. We also know how a casino works, and we can't exploit that either.

That the model is flawed we know already, but that's al depending from the point of view.

I say it's flawed if I loose money.
MA will say it's flawed when they loose money.


But in the end, it's MA who's in control...

It is supposed to make you lose money. I don't see how that is a flaw.
 
It has been stated many times, and I guess poor Marco have to keep
saying it: They get revenue stream from decay, not the entire decay.
So some part of decay goes back to system, which is brilliant, because
this will be more or less impossible to figure out the value for.
Most people seem to think that 100 in is 100 out, but I doubt it works like
that, it's more 100 in and 90 out, since some must stay in lootpool as
a backup, but also as "ingame value reduction-tool". ;)

When it comes to loot is not based on decay, there is a easy way to
test this (I've done it a LOT), use one "normal" amp and a E-amp, where
both do same amount of dmg. I see difference in loot (both tt-value
and what's in the loot) and also difference in skillprogress.
I know some will argue against this, and say I'm wrong, but it's like
saying:"- The house IS green!" even thou' I painted it red myself. ;)

Don't you think it's inevitable that it will be exploited once the system has been "cracked"?

That the model is flawed we know already, but that's al depending from the point of view.

I say it's flawed if I loose money.
MA will say it's flawed when they loose money.


But in the end, it's MA who's in control...
Hmm... to me it seems like you missed the whole point with EU. EU is a service
provided by a company that wants to make profit. The core basic
in EU is to make a flow with deposits, so probably 97% or so must lose
in the long run. (I only talk from a player vs system p.o.v, not a player
vs player p.o.v here.)
Ofc, as users, we want to profit too, but if we believe that a lot higher
percent of playerbase will break even or profit, we live in a disillusion. ;)
Btw, it doesn't matter if we crack the system, as long it isn't exploitable.
Only way for EU to not be judged as gambling, is to show a system that
isn't based on randomness. If a lot of people can "see" how it works, it's
even better, since chance to be judged as gambling, is lowered. ;)
 
It has been stated many times, and I guess poor Marco have to keep
saying it: They get revenue stream from decay, not the entire decay.

I think everyone knows this, but what we don't know is what MA includes in the word "decay". Does ammo decay? Bombs? My ped card?

It's still open for interpretation where MA gets their revenue from imo.
 
I think everyone knows this, but what we don't know is what MA includes in the word "decay". Does ammo decay? Bombs? My ped card?

It's still open for interpretation where MA gets their revenue from imo.

For me decay is pure decay on guns, ie no ammo etc. Ie When you buy/use somethign MA has gotten paid. It's not really when you use it ma get's paid.
 
I don't really understand whats left for interpretation for the quote:

Originally Posted by Marco|MindArk
No, MindArks revenue stream is from decay. So it is not an urban legend. All other areas (auction fee, ammo, etc) is cycled back into the economy.
 
I know some will argue against this, and say I'm wrong, but it's like
saying:"- The house IS green!" even thou' I painted it red myself. ;)

I think most people that argue against it will say "where is the evidence".
 
One thing about if makrup is taken into account or not.. If it wasnt taken into account, how CRAPPY returns wouldnt you get if you get a gun with a 200 or eveen 500% markup? say tt of the gun is 100 ped, markup 500% = 500 ped go hunt with that and you HAVE to get really good loot the even break even.

So in my eyes yes markup is taken into account, atleast to some extent.

Yeah that makes sence, so someone that buys an IMK2 will probably ATH every day, then?
 
No. We also know how a casino works, and we can't exploit that either.

Ow, ok then, is that why there are a hundred camaras watching you whenever you have a lucky streak in the casino?

Yes, casinos can be and are exploited.

Sometimes the exploiter gets away with it, but mostly not...


It is supposed to make you lose money. I don't see how that is a flaw.


I see that as a huge flaw, but thats exactly what I mean with, "it al depends from the point of view" ;)
 
Ow, ok then, is that why there are a hundred camaras watching you whenever you have a lucky streak in the casino?

Yes, casinos can be and are exploited.

Sometimes the exploiter gets away with it, but mostly not...

Cameras are there to prevent cheating and stealing. Almost all games in a casino can not be beaten. It is not possible to take advantage of a flaw in the rules, except in some very rare occasions where there is a bug in a (new) game. I know of one occasion of an online casino where this happened. Anyhow, this is far from "inevitable" as you called it.


I see that as a huge flaw, but thats exactly what I mean with, "it al depends from the point of view" ;)

No, it all depends on what the system was designed for. Or else you can say a toothbrush is flawed, because you cant use it to mow the lawn.
 
Yeah that makes sence, so someone that buys an IMK2 will probably ATH every day, then?

I said withing a certain limit or atleast i think i said that :p
The prices for those guns are totally overinflated. When MA made the game they thought stuff would get a value of full TT *3 as totall market value. Atleast that was what the talk was in beta.
 
I don't really understand whats left for interpretation for the quote:

Well excuse me for not having all Marco quotes in my head. :ahh:
 
I don't really understand whats left for interpretation for the quote:

seems to me that the scope for interpretation comes from the questions it raises concerning the fairness of the system if that statement is the complete and literal truth. I.e. the problem of melee; anomolies such as a lower eco/low decay weapon LM user paying nearly a quarterless than a high eco/higher decay Adj LR32 user; miners relatively low decay; crafters potentially zero decay (if they buy ingots). if as suggested decay is meant more broadly to cover consumption, these questions melt away.
 
I think most people that argue against it will say "where is the evidence".
Yep, they probably do that, but it's here the nice part comes in, they can
test this too. :)

Problem is thou', they will not. They see in a chart what works and not,
without even testing stuff. It's due to people like that I use my expresion:
"Knows it all, but zero knowledge if it." ;)

In 2 weeks I've been in PE/EU for 6yrs, and I have tested a lot under
those years.
 
Yep, they probably do that, but it's here the nice part comes in, they can
test this too. :)

Problem is thou', they will not. They see in a chart what works and not,
without even testing stuff. It's due to people like that I use my expresion:
"Knows it all, but zero knowledge if it." ;)

In 2 weeks I've been in PE/EU for 6yrs, and I have tested a lot under
those years.

Letting your assumptions for what they are, even if you are right, I lose nothing by using efficient amps. If you are wrong however...

In all fairness you have to agree this is a subject that is not very easily tested, and requires good methods.
 
Letting your assumptions for what they are, even if you are right, I lose nothing by using efficient amps. If you are wrong however...

In all fairness you have to agree this is a subject that is not very easily tested, and requires good methods.
I often see comments about equipment that are very obvious they only
has looked in a chart to see the "fact", they have never even tried
the equipment. Numbers is one thing, "reality" is something else.
To me, it really doesn't matter if people gonna try it or not. :)

A little example; when I use mkV+203 I get other loot than with comb
mkV+Eamp13, tt-value is often lower with Eamp13 on, but on the other
hand, I can have 2,5x more total skillprogress (not skillgain) and, I also
get other stuff in the loot.
With Eamp13 I get for example extractors I never get when I use 203.
Total dmg and ammoburn is same on both combs, decay is different.
And no, I didn't do one test, used them both for months... ;)
 
I often see comments about equipment that are very obvious they only
has looked in a chart to see the "fact", they have never even tried
the equipment. Numbers is one thing, "reality" is something else.
To me, it really doesn't matter if people gonna try it or not. :)

A little example; when I use mkV+203 I get other loot than with comb
mkV+Eamp13, tt-value is often lower with Eamp13 on, but on the other
hand, I can have 2,5x more total skillprogress (not skillgain) and, I also
get other stuff in the loot.
With Eamp13 I get for example extractors I never get when I use 203.
Total dmg and ammoburn is same on both combs, decay is different.
And no, I didn't do one test, used them both for months... ;)

It very much depends on the method you used. As results of the dynamic behavior of EU, this has to be very sound. Testing isn't just using items in a hunt and see what the result is. You have to create a proper method, expectations and a control dataset. I have to admit I have never done a proper test myself. I only compared my returns on a more global scale. And from my experience I conclude I do not get different loot using different gear. To be on the safe side I use eco gear, as I find a proper test to be way too much work.

Now, to be honest, I kind of doubt you did a proper test either. If you did, I will be interested in you method and your results. If not, you word isn't worth more than mine. I will never claim I am sure beyond doubt that gear does not influence loot, unless I have either tested it properly, or it is revealed by MA. Any claim about how it works needs to be supported by good evidence.
 
With Eamp13 I get for example extractors I never get when I use 203.Total dmg and ammoburn is same on both combs, decay is different.And no, I didn't do one test, used them both for months... ;)

forget about decay for moment, is the eco the same or different?

also, presumably by skillprogress you mean actual skills increasing rather the "skill gain" green lines?
 
It very much depends on the method you used. As results of the dynamic behavior of EU, this has to be very sound. Testing isn't just using items in a hunt and see what the result is. You have to create a proper method, expectations and a control dataset. I have to admit I have never done a proper test myself. I only compared my returns on a more global scale. And from my experience I conclude I do not get different loot using different gear. To be on the safe side I use eco gear, as I find a proper test to be way too much work.

Now, to be honest, I kind of doubt you did a proper test either. If you did, I will be interested in you method and your results. If not, you word isn't worth more than mine. I will never claim I am sure beyond doubt that gear does not influence loot, unless I have either tested it properly, or it is revealed by MA. Any claim about how it works needs to be supported by good evidence.
Yeah, doing one test will not help much, since influence from what you
have done in the past might help, or destroy, the test.
But when you do the same thing day after day, week after week, I think
you have "flatten" out influences from the past pretty good.
Another thing to think about, is where we stand in skill and profession
progress, since that can also have influence in tests.
Don't know if it is right position to do tests, but I think around 30% up
in a level is best time to start testing since it has began to slowdown there.

There will always be people that gonna disbelieve this, and there are
others that have noticed same as me, and to be honest, it really
doesn't matter to me. I never did those tests for the lootpart only, it
were always for skillprogress as prio1 and loot as prio2.
And when we go for skills instead of loot, we often follow other paths
than those who are out for loot. Both good and bad to do this imo... ;)
I have 4k lvl left to a total of 300k now (never used chip or ac), and
when I have passed 300k I gonna change prio to loot instead of skills...

I've done tests where I only put down outcome from the run (whats in
the loot, total tt-value, decay and ammo, total skillprogress) and also
more p.i.t.a-tests where I put down amount of mobs shot and also
maturity, when skills comes, what value each skillgain has, when loot
comes (i.e how many mobs I need to kill to get a lootpayout), what I
get in each and every loot and so on (best thing to do for tests like this
is to record whole session and then afterwards go thru' video and put
down what happened... as I said, a true p.i.t.a-test :D ;))

Gave up this type of enthusiasm some years ago thou'... :D ;)
Now (if I do a test) I only compare what went in and what I got out.
 
forget about decay for moment, is the eco the same or different?

also, presumably by skillprogress you mean actual skills increasing rather the "skill gain" green lines?
Depends on what you mean with eco, since setup is excatly the same,
(same mobs, same weapon, same FAPs, same total dmg) only difference is
the E-amps higher decay, and also type of damage done (but that
shouldn't matter today, in the future yes, but not today.)
So yes, eco should be different if we use all combined numbers.

Yes, you are right, it's the progress of the skillbar I mean here, not amount
of green lines, since that doesn't say much imo. ;)
Individuall values per gain can be different with e-amp and 203. :)
 
Depends on what you mean with eco, since setup is excatly the same,
(same mobs, same weapon, same FAPs, same total dmg) only difference is
the E-amps higher decay,

i mean, all else equal is the dmg/pec number higher or lower. if comparing E-amps to A* amps, i reckon i can assume eco is lower with the E-amp. puts the broad results you report into context.
 
I have not read all the posts in this tread so sorry if this have been said before.

The decay MA "lives of" is the decay on all deposits ....
and for me, the aprox 3,5 years I have played, that have been about 30%
if I count in salesvalue of skills gained and all my stuff.
If Im counting only TT value ... ehh, dont even want to think about it :eek:

S V :tiphat:
 
Just cost to kill, all the TT decay and ammo (the markup % you pay are extra loss) And if you kill slow and the mob regens to much you just make it more expensive, so I take in to considderation the HP the mob has.

cost per click like crafting and mining
 
i mean, all else equal is the dmg/pec number higher or lower. if comparing E-amps to A* amps, i reckon i can assume eco is lower with the E-amp. puts the broad results you report into context.

To answer your basic question, his dmg/pec is lower when using the E-13.

The A203 and E-13 both do 15 dmg. So placed on the same gun, the damage per shot and dmg/sec. is theoretically both the same. However he's paying an extra 0.0069 for every shot using the E-13. Sounds tiny, but after 2,000 shots he's spending 13.80 extra on top of all his other decay.

However, because of that difference, Joat is saying that the exact items he gets is slightly different, although the general TT is basically the same.

This is significant, because looting 81 basic mineral extractors instead of 81 oil res means the markup essentially nullified his excess decay.

If, however, he's getting 40 ped in panc oil instead of 40 ped in thyroid oil, it's interesting, but not quite as useful.

But, as I've mentioned before, I've also done tests that seem to bear out the "cost to hunt factors into return" theory.
 
To answer your basic question, his dmg/pec is lower when using the E-13.

The A203 and E-13 both do 15 dmg. So placed on the same gun, the damage per shot and dmg/sec. is theoretically both the same. However he's paying an extra 0.0069 for every shot using the E-13. Sounds tiny, but after 2,000 shots he's spending 13.80 extra on top of all his other decay.

However, because of that difference, Joat is saying that the exact items he gets is slightly different, although the general TT is basically the same.

This is significant, because looting 81 basic mineral extractors instead of 81 oil res means the markup essentially nullified his excess decay.

If, however, he's getting 40 ped in panc oil instead of 40 ped in thyroid oil, it's interesting, but not quite as useful.

But, as I've mentioned before, I've also done tests that seem to bear out the "cost to hunt factors into return" theory.
Thanks for answer, were about type this too. :) Saved me some maths... :D ;)
Yep, the difference I had when it comes to extractors, were that I suddenly
got extractors with a MU way over 1k %, instead of the ones I used to get
that were under 170%.
 
I should start this with a little disclaimer that I'm not looking to prove or disprove this theory. My only goal is information gathering and to generate discussion as I've seen this topic come about a few times and still have a few questions regarding it. As I'm not yet skilled enough to use, not to mention OWN many of the weapons in Entropia, the only thing I can really do is pose questions to those that can. I'm also going to avoid talking about melee weapons and crafting for the purpose of this thread... brings up more questions which aren't entirely necessary for this discussion.

If you're not already familiar with this theory, it goes something like this:

As you are out shooting your guns (and dropping bombs), you incur two different expenses directly related to these activities, and that is an ammo expense and a decay expense. We all understand that MA (in a round-about way) makes money from decay. Some of the posts from the MA/FPC officials have lead some to believe that what they are implying is that MA keeps the decay and that ammo spent gets either returned to the loot pool or will be returned to the player at some given time (macro or micro level returns).

If this theory holds true, then what that implies to me is that weapons that are very heavy on the ammo side of the ammo/decay ratio should be the best for returns on either the macro or micro level. Likewise weapons that are very decay heavy should be worse for returns.

If returns are on the micro level, it would also throw out the idea that doing anything "eco" is a good strategy. All you would need is a weapon that has a higher ammo to decay ratio and your returns should be much better over time (this doesn't apply to macro returns, but higher ammo to decay ratios would be better for the overall economy... more on that later...).

Some examples of weapons that would be best according to this:
-Omegaton M61A5 Adjusted (23 ammo, 0.12 decay)
-Ravenger Mini-Sweeper V2 (14 ammo, 0.1 decay)
-Cempball-Welch 1/P-1 (6 ammo, 0.06 decay)
-Opalo, D-1, CB5 (2 ammo, 0.02 decay)

Some of the worst weapons:
-Fire Forge DAR 9300 Modified (20 ammo, 17 decay)
-Omegaton ASG-2 Swine Deluxe (24 ammo, 21 decay)
-Marber Tango-Type Plasma Annihilator (23 ammo, 28.5 decay)
-Meckel & Loch PSG-45 Sniper (44 decay, 4 ammo)

There are also a few generalities that can be made here. BLP weapons are usually higher in decay than laser weapons. Limited weapons are typically higher in decay than unlimited weapons.

So I guess what it boils down to is: does any of this even matter?

I've used both weapons that are high on ammo and weapons that are higher on decay and haven't been able to notice a difference in returns. What about you? Have you been able to notice any difference? Have you had the opportunity to use the weapons on those lists and notice a sizable difference between the two? I have to think that the answer is probably no. Might be poll worthy... I think I'd rather you post though, to give more substance than just a yes or no answer...

But this only addresses the micro level returns. The macro level would be hard to quantify. But the one recurring theme is that people say loots are worse now than they used to be, and continue to slide.

The biggest difference in EU today versus EU a few years back is the introduction of (L). As I said earlier, (L) typically has more decay than unL. This would mean that as more and more people switch to (L) for the efficiency, less ammo is being returned to the loot pool than in years past. (L) ends up giving MA a larger chunk of money spent, and less gets returned to players.

Efficiency is great, but now we're becoming more efficient to compete for a dwindling loot pool. The same thing we now depend on to stay competitive is the same thing that's shooting us in the foot. Kinda puts a bad taste in your mouth, doesn't it? :(


I own and use the m61a5 adjusted and a few otehr weapons listed. and honestly i cant say that using a weapon with higer ammo vs decay makes a difference. you can fire that thing at snables all day and your still not any more likely to global than if you use one of the "worse" weapons listed there.
 
u get paid for hp killed , with some variations due to jackpots beeing paid out.

kill as much hp as possible with the least amount of peds , and youre a winner long term.

i dont follow this advise myself , and i loose big time , but then again im stupid.

cheers

ermik
 
u get paid for hp killed , with some variations due to jackpots beeing paid out.

My gut feelling is that it's the jackpots that ruins the "pay back" theory. Ok if it's someone who has been ingame for a while, but it breaks the theory for miners who the first week of playing pull a finder from the TT and then get a 700 ped HOF on the first click.

Or think 1000 ped from a male snable young; imagine how many snable male youngs that was lootless to achieve that.
 
My gut feelling is that it's the jackpots that ruins the "pay back" theory. Ok if it's someone who has been ingame for a while, but it breaks the theory for miners who the first week of playing pull a finder from the TT and then get a 700 ped HOF on the first click.

Or think 1000 ped from a male snable young; imagine how many snable male youngs that was lootless to achieve that.
Remember that the bigger loots are also boosted with peds from fees and
so on. ;)
Why a new player hit a big isn't anything strange, since those most
probably are related to our professions progress. There are in another
word a boost for very low level professions too. ;)
Imo, there isn't one system, there are several, and when combined, you
get a really nice one.
Someone could get a 52 ped global, or a 5200, from avatars p.o.v there
is no difference, but with help of the boostsystem, the outcome is
different. It's all about being at right place, hunting right thing, at
the right time. :)
 
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