the Calypso Land Deeds only payout, not any incomes.

[liux156]

since MA publish the CLD with 1,000 PED each, totaly 60,000.
income: 60,000*1,000=60,000,000 PED
payout: 60,000*1,000*24.02%=14,412,000 PED (Calypso Land Deed ROI it is from there: https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/showthread.php?219981-Calypso-Land-Deed-ROI-tracker)

SO, 50 month later, MA will lost all income from CLD.

 

[apache_ZC]

and your point being....?

 

[mastermesh]

BUT.... in theory once clds pay back 100% of original cost Mindark now will have 60k potential people (not really that many though since most that own clds own more than one) that will continue to play the game and now have a vested interest in keeping the game running going forward as 'freely hired' advertisers who actually paid for that status so to speak.

In worst case scenario this move at least puts a few avatars in game 'doing something' (even if it's just logging in to keep account active so cld payments continue) even if no one else is so it gives a (false?) impression to n00bs that this community is highly active and worthwhile to investigate becoming a part of so new generations of incoming EU virgins can fill the pockets of those holding clds.

 

[Sidney]

since MA publish the CLD with 1,000 PED each, totaly 60,000.
income: 60,000*1,000=60,000,000 PED
payout: 60,000*1,000*24.02%=14,412,000 PED (Calypso Land Deed ROI it is from there: https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/showthread.php?219981-Calypso-Land-Deed-ROI-tracker)

SO, 50 month later, MA will lost all income from CLD.

pls don't get involved with shares or anything in that kind of matter.

 

[Tepes]

since MA publish the CLD with 1,000 PED each, totaly 60,000.
income: 60,000*1,000=60,000,000 PED
payout: 60,000*1,000*24.02%=14,412,000 PED (Calypso Land Deed ROI it is from there: https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/showthread.php?219981-Calypso-Land-Deed-ROI-tracker)

SO, 50 month later, MA will lost all income from CLD.

Do you guarantee 24% return on CLD over next 4 years? No? Well, neither MA, if you get my drift.

And even if it will be the case, MA will not lose any income from CLD, they would, in theory, paid back what they got initially in a number of years between 4-6-8 years who knows.. In the meantime additional revenue was generated by in-game activities - they just get less of it than before. They got 6 million USD much needed cash selling 60000 items of almost no TT value.

MA has bigger worries right now than CLDs, which was their cleverly designed safe net.

pls don't get involved with shares or anything in that kind of matter.

LOL this was my exact post then I was thinking to explain a little

 

[Dab]

The total payout on the 60,000 CLD's is 60000 * 444.05 = 26, 643, 000 PEDS in 99 weeks.

MA kept 1000 deeds for placing in loot/event prizes so the 26 million PED figure is little high. Also they had a buy back and then resold some (not sure if the held some on a Monday when the payour occurs).

Using the slightly high figure above, the 6 million dollars will be gone in 223 weeks total - 99 already paid out, so 124 weeks to go until the 6 million is repaid. Provided of course the payouts remain at the same average as Tepes has noted above.

Keep in mind, MA recieved the $6 million, but planet calypso is paying the payouts. Although MA did give up 50% of their income from Calypso FOREVER.

Judging by the not as successful as they want to be Planet Partners, a wild guess would be that MA gave up 40% of their income for $6 million. This is based on a TOTAL GUESS that MA gets 80% of their income from Calypso, Space and now mini planet partners e.g. Monria.

If the (planet partners+Monria+whatever MA sells next year) don't take off by the time another 124 weeks or so roll around, I think MA is screwed.

Of course $6 million does make a nice golden parachute for Jan and company.

 

[liux156]

BUT.... in theory once clds pay back 100% of original cost Mindark now will have 60k potential people (not really that many though since most that own clds own more than one) that will continue to play the game and now have a vested interest in keeping the game running going forward as 'freely hired' advertisers who actually paid for that status so to speak.

In worst case scenario this move at least puts a few avatars in game 'doing something' (even if it's just logging in to keep account active so cld payments continue) even if no one else is so it gives a (false?) impression to n00bs that this community is highly active and worthwhile to investigate becoming a part of so new generations of incoming EU virgins can fill the pockets of those holding clds.

nope, that will not attack 60k ppl come, because 60k cld all are control by few big inverstor.
so, cld cant attack any ppl coming, because it is nothing about new avatar, that right?

 

[Konve]

SO, 50 month later, MA will lost all income from CLD.

Not exactly.

1) MA/devs all make their money from one thing - deposits.
2) MA/devs do not lose or gain anything if money is just changing hands inside of Entropia. If you pay 500 million in auctions fees one day, MA made zip, nada, nothing from you that day. Decay? Same thing, MA makes no money from decay what-so-ever.

So as long as people don't withdraw their PED from the game, everything is fine and dandy. It is only indirectly that MA lose out on CLDs, because people might deposit less.

It's the big investors that was the problem. Those who sit on their large stack of CLDs for years and then suddenly sell them off to cash out. That could become a real, big problem if they wait long enough.

 

[Zorander]

...
1) MA/devs all make their money from one thing - deposits.
2) MA/devs do not lose or gain anything if money is just changing hands inside of Entropia. If you pay 500 million in auctions fees one day, MA made zip, nada, nothing from you that day. Decay? Same thing, MA makes no money from decay what-so-ever.
...

TLDR; Decay = less PED can be withdrawn = more profit. It may not be direct income but it's a reduction of liability.

While you are technically right, decay does play a part in MA's profits. A portion of decay is retained by MA (per MA's own posts on this forum), this reduces their contingent liability (the amount of PED that could be withdrawn) and so improves their bottom line. I'm not really sure on auction fees... I seem to recall reading that a portion of those go into loot but I've no clue where the rest go and I don't feel like looking it up. Anything that takes PED off your card without putting it back or putting it into loot for someone else to get means MA is making money, or reducing their liability if you prefer.

 

[forgo]

The CLD's and what they represent have not been owned by MA for some time. CLD is basically the defaulted FPC Planet partner ish share. MA had sold that aspect of Calypso a long time ago, it just took some time to settle thru court.

So no it is not MA income, it isn't intended to be, it was a business share that was purchased. It just happened the original buyer couldnt afford it defaulted and now the players are the buyer/owners of that business function.

MA holds no interest in the CLDS themselves. (unless they bought shares and hold on MA avatars).

In short CLD is an investment, players provided the capital to buy that share of Calypso. Therefore the income is to the player owners alone for that share.

We just don't have the safety and protection of a true legal agreement and planet partner protections, but it is essentially the same deal.

 

[SquirrellyWrath]

The best way to look at CLD "income" is this...

Take a sheet of paper.. Draw a line down the middle from top to bottom. At the top left.. write MA/Caly... on the top right.. Players.

Now.. starting with the top right.. draw an arrow and BOLD line going from player side to ma side of the paper across the line. but split off a part and curve it back to the player side across the middle line.. with a thin line...now continue and curve that line back in BOLD and arrow from player side to MA side. across the line.. split off a part of it.. and curve back a thin line across to the player side.

Pretty simple... repeat as many times as you like down this sheet of paper.

as you can see.. where do the arrows terminate?? on the MA side... Where do the CLD "income" come from? crossing that middle line.... from the players...thats the thin line.. the thin line is just a split off from BOLD line and arrow going to the MA side. where does it originate from?.... follow the lines... from the player side. If you want to argue that on the player side it can be withdrawn... then look towards the top of the paper... where is that line snaking from side to side?? where does it originate??.. the player side... where does the majority of the "income" go? on the MA side... MA is not paying these out.

 

[Chuck Wholrey]

Keep in mind, MA recieved the $6 million, but planet calypso is paying the payouts. Although MA did give up 50% of their income from Calypso FOREVER.

nothing says MA will pay out "forever"... that's a pipe dream... the time left till break even is the amount of time Calypso has to implement the land placement system. once your able to place your land deeds, Ma will stop paying dividends, and you will have your "voting rights", and possible land taxes to collect...
The whole deed system is one HUGE grey area, and nothing solid has ever been specified. Most of the "details" have never come from MA or the PP, just the players wanting to "hype" their resale possibilities.

 

[mastermesh]

nothing says MA will pay out "forever"...

You do have a valid point, and besides that, even if it did 'say' it, what it says could be altered by Mindark at any point in the game. They already changed the deed's phrasing once, making the 'owners' in to 'holders' -- nothing stops them from doing it again.

 

[Konve]

TLDR; Decay = less PED can be withdrawn = more profit. It may not be direct income but it's a reduction of liability.

While you are technically right, decay does play a part in MA's profits. A portion of decay is retained by MA (per MA's own posts on this forum), this reduces their contingent liability (the amount of PED that could be withdrawn) and so improves their bottom line. I'm not really sure on auction fees... I seem to recall reading that a portion of those go into loot but I've no clue where the rest go and I don't feel like looking it up. Anything that takes PED off your card without putting it back or putting it into loot for someone else to get means MA is making money, or reducing their liability if you prefer.

True. Deposits minus Withdrawals = net income for MA.

However the old saga that began when Marco claimed that MA made their money from decay is to be taken with a ton of salt on top. The reason is the relation you stated; less money can be withdrawn.

No "portion" of decay goes into MA's pockets, whatever they might have claimed. It's simply impossible. They made their income from the deposit in the first place, they can't create more income by taking another cut from the same deposit.

In MA's financial reports they state the ingame amount of PED as an *something* (forgot the name) liability that doesn't count into the balance sheet, because of their unclear state (will they be withdrawn or not? MA can't tell so they don't put it up as a normal liability).

Auction fees is essentially decay.


Anyway. My point was that if player A has no CLDs and 100 PED, and player B has one CLD and 100 PED. The next week they have 100 and 105 PED respectively. Is player B likely to withdraw those extra 5 PED? No, he's going to spend it inside the game. So even if MA "gave" him a "cut" from their income, they really didn't. They only gave him a few virtual digits that he might convert to real money some day. It's only when he withdraws as they have to live up to their promise and give him his cut. Which will not happen because a week later they both have 0 PED left.

 

[SpikeBlack]

Here we go again


In theory MA could have enough ped to pay just one month of CLD payouts and that's it. The proviso is that any ped paid is put back in to playing.

i.e. a players 40ped from the CLD which they then spend in game with additional ped to cover the 75% not going for CLD on Calypso. Over 12 months it looks like 480ped but it's actually the same 40ped cycled 12 times.

The only case that breaks this is when people withdraw it.

 

[Spawn]

The total payout on the 60,000 CLD's is 60000 * 444.05 = 26, 643, 000 PEDS in 99 weeks.

MA kept 1000 deeds for placing in loot/event prizes so the 26 million PED figure is little high. Also they had a buy back and then resold some (not sure if the held some on a Monday when the payour occurs).

Using the slightly high figure above, the 6 million dollars will be gone in 223 weeks total - 99 already paid out, so 124 weeks to go until the 6 million is repaid. Provided of course the payouts remain at the same average as Tepes has noted above.

Keep in mind, MA recieved the $6 million, but planet calypso is paying the payouts. Although MA did give up 50% of their income from Calypso FOREVER.

Judging by the not as successful as they want to be Planet Partners, a wild guess would be that MA gave up 40% of their income for $6 million. This is based on a TOTAL GUESS that MA gets 80% of their income from Calypso, Space and now mini planet partners e.g. Monria.

If the (planet partners+Monria+whatever MA sells next year) don't take off by the time another 124 weeks or so roll around, I think MA is screwed.

Of course $6 million does make a nice golden parachute for Jan and company.

The cld income is not payed. It remains ingame until someone asks for a withdrawal
You need players with an iron will who do not touch the payments and then ask for a withdrawal. Players who are low on their pedcard and see an irresistable item in the auction might use the payments to buy something or play with the peds.

Also I think cld payout ped may be "marked". once you start to play with those peds, it will disappear faster than regular deposited peds.

 

[Spawn]

nothing says MA will pay out "forever"... that's a pipe dream... the time left till break even is the amount of time Calypso has to implement the land placement system. once your able to place your land deeds, Ma will stop paying dividends, and you will have your "voting rights", and possible land taxes to collect...
The whole deed system is one HUGE grey area, and nothing solid has ever been specified. Most of the "details" have never come from MA or the PP, just the players wanting to "hype" their resale possibilities.

Cld's will continue to payout for as long as entropia universe exists. the land placement system has no influence on the cld payout. This was already stated at the introduction of cld's. There is no grey area. you can simply look it up.

 

[RobBuona]

since MA publish the CLD with 1,000 PED each, totaly 60,000.
income: 60,000*1,000=60,000,000 PED
payout: 60,000*1,000*24.02%=14,412,000 PED (Calypso Land Deed ROI it is from there: https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/showthread.php?219981-Calypso-Land-Deed-ROI-tracker)

SO, 50 month later, MA will lost all income from CLD.

You do realize this is how shares work, right? It's the same reason people take on 30-year mortgages despite the fact that, with interest, they'll end up paying double the value of the home or more - because they need money now.

 

[SquirrellyWrath]

I tried to explain it as simply as possible.... MA/Caly will ALWAYS get income with the CLDs... the payouts are only a split off of what is put in. They got a lump sum at start. and each week the amount given back as CLD payments is NOT coming out of their pockets. the game would have to end for a cld to return 0. Scroll up a bit and look at what I tried to describe. Any income directly from cld's would be from selling/trading on their side. but regardless they are still getting the majority of income with each CLD payment or activity... even if every single penny/pec of CLD payments were withdrawn, then it isn't like they are loosing or paying ANYTHING!!!!

 

[Chuck Wholrey]

Cld's will continue to payout for as long as entropia universe exists. the land placement system has no influence on the cld payout. This was already stated at the introduction of cld's. There is no grey area. you can simply look it up.

can you quote this?

 

[Serica]

can you quote this?

It's right there on the EU website on the CLD page for anyone to see: http://www.entropiauniverse.com/bulletin/buzz/2011/11/16/Calypso-Land-Lot-Deeds.xml

Q. What happens to my revenue share payments if I do not claim any Land Lot plots?
A. You will still receive all revenue share payments. Land Lot plots are simply an additional feature offered to those who choose to support the future growth of Planet Calypso.

 

[NevadaJake]

Also I think cld payout ped may be "marked". once you start to play with those peds, it will disappear faster than regular deposited peds.

Seems reasonable my PEDs go pretty fast regardless of if they are from my credit card or my CLDs.

 

[billairboy]

True. Deposits minus Withdrawals = net income for MA.

However the old saga that began when Marco claimed that MA made their money from decay is to be taken with a ton of salt on top. The reason is the relation you stated; less money can be withdrawn.

No "portion" of decay goes into MA's pockets, whatever they might have claimed. It's simply impossible. They made their income from the deposit in the first place, they can't create more income by taking another cut from the same deposit.

But the deposits is triggered by decay and fees, that's why both claims can be true. The words "earn money from" can have both a strictly financial meaning and a more general meaning.
"How do you get money?" - "By working" or "When I get my salary"
"How do MA earn money?" - "With decay/fees" (general meaning) or "When players deposits" (financial term).

 

[Ironheart]

True. Deposits minus Withdrawals = net income for MA.

However the old saga that began when Marco claimed that MA made their money from decay is to be taken with a ton of salt on top. The reason is the relation you stated; less money can be withdrawn.

No "portion" of decay goes into MA's pockets, whatever they might have claimed. It's simply impossible. They made their income from the deposit in the first place, they can't create more income by taking another cut from the same deposit.

In MA's financial reports they state the ingame amount of PED as an *something* (forgot the name) liability that doesn't count into the balance sheet, because of their unclear state (will they be withdrawn or not? MA can't tell so they don't put it up as a normal liability).

Auction fees is essentially decay.


Anyway. My point was that if player A has no CLDs and 100 PED, and player B has one CLD and 100 PED. The next week they have 100 and 105 PED respectively. Is player B likely to withdraw those extra 5 PED? No, he's going to spend it inside the game. So even if MA "gave" him a "cut" from their income, they really didn't. They only gave him a few virtual digits that he might convert to real money some day. It's only when he withdraws as they have to live up to their promise and give him his cut. Which will not happen because a week later they both have 0 PED left.

If you buy a car from Mr. A for £1000 and agree to pay him next month
Then sell the car to me tomorrow for £1200 cash in hand
What is your income?

I would argue your income is £1200, your liability is £1000 and your profit is £200

The principles around decay are exactly same.

If I deposit 10 PED and use that to buy 10 PED woth of TT stuff
MA income = 10 PED, liability (contingent or otherwise) = 10 PED, profit = 0 PED

Once I have deacyed this item to 9 PED
MA income = 10 PED, liability (contingent or otherwise) = 9 PED, profit = 1 PED

Your problem Konve is that you are confusing income with what 'what goes into MA's pockets' (to use your term).

Its simply wrong to state that MA do not profit from decay, they most certainly do. They DO NOT profit from your deposit directly, as that cash is simply turned into a liability on the accounts.

 

[sawachika]

...

Its simply wrong to state that MA do not profit from decay, they most certainly do. They DO NOT profit from your deposit directly, as that cash is simply turned into a liability on the accounts.

True...

In a sense, they are more or less running like a semi-bank or something....where they are free to use whatever cash is depoed as they please. Decay is merely a form of means for them to gradually reduce their liability towards the depositors (in the form of "entertainment").

If in status quo, so long as there's no "bank run"...everything is just peachy.

---

But if you think in Konve's shoes, since there's no governing body to "observe/restrict" MA's actions...

Then in some sense, there's no way that MA couldn't take more than "decay" right?

For example, siphon extra peds off the overall lootpools since those "technically" aren't in anyone's hands but would play a part in determining how "kind" the system is in paying us our loot. What's more, their amounts are totally invisible/unknown to the players.

Or perhaps create "more" desirable items and sell it to us for "more than" their TT values.

So end of the day, the lesson to take away is still....whatever TT that is in your hands is yours and is MA's liability. That is all.

 

[Ironheart]

Oh I agree, we have no legal guarantee that MA will play by the rules, but that is a different argument.

I have seen Konve and others post for many many years that 'MA gets it income from deposits not decay', and yet across all those years I have never known MA to refuse to pay out a withdrawl to a non-banned player.

 

[Konve]

If you buy a car from Mr. A for £1000 and agree to pay him next month
Then sell the car to me tomorrow for £1200 cash in hand
What is your income?

I would argue your income is £1200, your liability is £1000 and your profit is £200

The principles around decay are exactly same.

If I deposit 10 PED and use that to buy 10 PED woth of TT stuff
MA income = 10 PED, liability (contingent or otherwise) = 10 PED, profit = 0 PED

Once I have deacyed this item to 9 PED
MA income = 10 PED, liability (contingent or otherwise) = 9 PED, profit = 1 PED

Your problem Konve is that you are confusing income with what 'what goes into MA's pockets' (to use your term).

Its simply wrong to state that MA do not profit from decay, they most certainly do. They DO NOT profit from your deposit directly, as that cash is simply turned into a liability on the accounts.

Oh I agree, we have no legal guarantee that MA will play by the rules, but that is a different argument.

I have seen Konve and others post for many many years that 'MA gets it income from deposits not decay', and yet across all those years I have never known MA to refuse to pay out a withdrawl to a non-banned player.

I have said, repeatedly, that I mean they make no money from decay in a direct fashion. They do indirectly - but only because people can withdraw less. Meaning it is more probable that they will withdraw less.

Your problem Konve is that you are confusing income with what 'what goes into MA's pockets' (to use your term).

No, I am not.

All income from deposits go into MA's pockets. Removing withdrawals you get their net income. (According to the financial reports: "MindArk defines operating income from Entropia Universe as the net amount of provided and withdrawn funds by users.")

All "PED in-game" are contingent liabilities. ("It is not possible to determine whether a certain amount of PED at any given moment will be withdrawn from Entropia Universe or spent on activities within the virtual environment. MindArk therefore consider all unconsumed funds in PED as a contingent liability.")

If you deposit 1000 PED and do nothing for a year. If MA has no other expenses, they will say their profit that year was 1000 PED.

If you spend/decay 500 PED. They will still say their profit was 1000 PED.

Their contingent liability dropped by 500 PED in the second example, but their profit stayed the same.

Now, I am not an accountant. So I may yet be wrong. The above is only what I summarize from the financial reports.

Edit: I may be confusing income with revenue. Yet it should not affect what MA writes in their reports about liabilities.

Edit2:
I guess I might as well answer these.

If you buy a car from Mr. A for £1000 and agree to pay him next month
Then sell the car to me tomorrow for £1200 cash in hand
What is your income?

I would argue your income is £1200, your liability is £1000 and your profit is £200

Yes. Profit = 200.

The principles around decay are exactly same.

No. PED ingame is a contingent liability - people may or may not withdraw them. They are not accounted for in the income statement.

If I deposit 10 PED and use that to buy 10 PED woth of TT stuff
MA income = 10 PED, liability (contingent or otherwise) = 10 PED, profit = 0 PED

Profit = 10.

Once I have deacyed this item to 9 PED
MA income = 10 PED, liability (contingent or otherwise) = 9 PED, profit = 1 PED

Profit = 10.

 

[xian]

Mindark income will always be Decay (+event +auction fee)+ Whatever money they need to survive. All the rest is redistributed via the casino system. It can never be more than deposit - withdrawl of the previous period interval. System is fine as it is. Loot available that amount deduced from la tax.
CLD give a share of total income from calypso. It is good for CLD oner as long the system exist. It is good for MA cause it aloowed them to cash in 6M at a point they needed this. (Was it enough, i don't know.) They accepted to give share of their income to CLD owner.MA has nothing to do in the reselling market. It may cost them to do so but i all depends of what their expanson truely is.
MA claim to have more active player or at least they knew what caused to crash atlantis at a point. I guess it's true, CLD income didn't increase cause of the new adjustement made on Calypso weapons. It didn't work out well in the less volatility loot cause it was a misunderstanding of the player base. Less volatility was meant on MA cashflow Well many more to say about CLD but i think most people who know it talk less about it, knowledge is power after all.

 

[Ironheart]

No. PED ingame is a contingent liability - people may or may not withdraw them. They are not accounted for in the income statement.

They are (too short)

 

[Konve]

They are (too short)

No.They.Are.Not.

Of everything, how can you even argue that point? Just go look at the reports yourself:
http://www.mindark.se/investor-relations/financial-reports/

2012:
Income Statement (Parent Company):
+ Net Sales
+ Other Income
Minus expenses makes for operating profit.

+/- Financial items and minus tax and you get net profit.



Financial items play a very small role here. I think from the sheer size we can rule out it having anything to do with the ingame amount of PED.

Other income means CLD sales and some other irregular posts, see Not(e) 2.

So Net Sales has to include the liabilities. Let us have a look on Not 1:
"Corporate revenues consist of the net sum of deposited and withdrawn amounts from Entropia Universe made by users. The net revenues are presented in the income statement after deduction of reimbursements requested by participants in Entropia Universe."

Would you look at that. Same thing I quoted above (that was actually Not 19).


Am I wrong? Maybe. If I am, please go ahead and prove it. Don't just post rubbish.

I am done here.