The Foundation Stone

[Peezle]

Hi everyone.

Just a thought or two.

Now, I am no great crafter ( or anything else for than matter ), but I have indulged a lot.

And before modloot, crafting has been, well, expensive, but a lot of fun.

Lots of swirlies, lots of bps ( sometimes worth a lot ) and just worth it. A lot of loss usually, but hey, I accepted that we crafters are basically a large engine for the other guys.

Yanno, how we buy their ores and hunting materials and turn them into swirls but generally a loss.

Not that those other guys often made profits, but they too had the same kind of experience to keep them going.

For 3 weeks I think maybe I got 2 swirls, normally 15/16 or something or at least a nice bp or 2. Not 1 of them either.

One thing to remember for all professions, anecdotal evidence is a powerfully delusional force on your thinking. If you see a couple of hofs in your chosen profession you think it is doing OK enough. This is called the testimonial delusion. Yanno that is why you cannot turn them off right? Why you would not be allowed to if they did not rely on psychological tricks.

Anyways, turns out it ain't just me, which we all like to think ourselves as victims. Nope.

So. Draw your own conclusions. See Woolworth as an example of 'sky falling' eventually.

I think those guys lasted 100 years but their logic still led to collapse.

Not here to be negative or paranoid, simply honest. Also hopeful.

 

[lincey]

re

Didn't understand all except that we've to give our though on crafting?

Personally, i never loss anything. If i compare my deposit and what i earned with craft, i'm good.

Always gambling, for fun, for swirlies.

 

[KijkkiJikki]

Crafting is where I profit. just under 5% this month.

 

[Peezle]

Well understanding or 5% aside, the reality is different for a lot of people.

As is hunting and mining.

Your perceptions have to tally with other people, else they lose their meaning.


I consider myself a normal player, and it sucks.

I consider a lot of my fl as normal players, and ditto.

Single instances mean shit. That the regular people experience this means dirt because you are OK? what? you are special or something is wrong.

try not to imagine yourselves as competing with me. because otherwise this is offensive AND missing the point.

EDIT. try not to apply a not my problem approach to gaming, or your life in general. Because, that shit gets you in a hole. Oh look I got me a 1k,4k, 20k Hof, so I AM OK. Nope. Not a solution to life or this game. This is the illusion. Did you read that bit? The illusion they are spinning.

Why cannot we turn off Hofs ? Why? Once you answer this all becomes clear.

Logic should show you a way ahead.

 

[KijkkiJikki]

Well understanding or 5% aside, the reality is different for a lot of people.
As is hunting and mining.
Your perceptions have to tally with other people, else they lose their meaning.
I consider myself a normal player, and it sucks.
I consider a lot of my fl as normal players, and ditto.
Single instances mean shit. That the regular people experience this means dirt because you are OK? what? you are special or something is wrong.
try not to imagine yourselves as competing with me. because otherwise this is offensive AND missing the point.
Logic should show you a way ahead.

Reality differs for every individual. Perception is not fact. I am able to consistently profit in crafting ( profit being calculated as Sales amount - cost of crafting). If I can do it, then others can. It's not luck, it's not skillz, but it is knowledge and process and ped investment. And it took me some time to learn how to manage my expenses, pricing, what to craft, how to sell. Initially my losses were around 10%. Over a period of many months I have been able to turn things around.

Try not to imagine me as imagining I am competing with you. I'm not. I'm also not discounting the experiences of those you deem to be "regular". However I am asserting that the sky is not falling. If you avoid treating crafting as a slot machine, if you invest an appropriate amount of peds, if you take time to understand the economy, take care in sourcing your materials, track your costs and price your outputs accordingly then crafting does not need to be a losing proposition.

I assert there are similar but different principles in the fields of hunting and mining also. I know a number of non-uber players who consistently break even or profit in hunting and/or mining. They have discipline, they have knowledge, and they play to a budget.

I don't assert everyone can profit. Game theory tells us this is not possible in EU, but given there is a range of profit\loss scenarios within the game, it is very much up to the individual where they lie in the spectrum.

Regards,
KikkiJikki

 

[Peezle]

Reality differs for every individual. Perception is not fact. I am able to consistently profit in crafting ( profit being calculated as Sales amount - cost of crafting). If I can do it, then others can. It's not luck, it's not skillz, but it is knowledge and process and ped investment. And it took me some time to learn how to manage my expenses, pricing, what to craft, how to sell. Initially my losses were around 10%. Over a period of many months I have been able to turn things around.

Try not to imagine me as imagining I am competing with you. I'm not. I'm also not discounting the experiences of those you deem to be "regular". However I am asserting that the sky is not falling. If you avoid treating crafting as a slot machine, if you invest an appropriate amount of peds, if you take time to understand the economy, take care in sourcing your materials, track your costs and price your outputs accordingly then crafting does not need to be a losing proposition.

I assert there are similar but different principles in the fields of hunting and mining also. I know a number of non-uber players who consistently break even or profit in hunting and/or mining. They have discipline, they have knowledge, and they play to a budget.

I don't assert everyone can profit. Game theory tells us this is not possible in EU, but given there is a range of profit\loss scenarios within the game, it is very much up to the individual where they lie in the spectrum.

Regards,
KikkiJikki

You are evidently living in some alternate universe to me and my friends, who have consistently lost since modloot.

A lot of them are much higher skilled than me.

Game theory tells us nothing about profit or loss by the way, but how to engineer games.

At what point did I ever assert I made a consistent profit, or my friends?

At what point did I ever complain that I did not make a profit?

You are consistently arguing around my points as if I ever expected to make a profit.

Show me, in ANY of my posts anywhere, where I whined about not making a profit.

Explain to me also why mod loot works in general for most players.

KJ, I am losing faith in you as an independent thinker, because you seem to say that black is white.

Do you not have a fl you talk to? do you just play in a bubble? I am not talking of ME here, but my people in general. You seem to talk as if you are above it all. What is going on here? Did you skip over my comment of my past life because they did not fit in with your illusion?

Oh yes, you never did answer the hof question. What a surprise.

EDIT. If you are not an MA sap, then talk different. Else, it looks bad. Liberal arguments will not cut it.

 

[KijkkiJikki]

You are evidently living in some alternate universe to me and my friends, who have consistently lost since modloot.

A lot of them are much higher skilled than me.

Game theory tells us nothing about profit or loss by the way, but how to engineer games.

At what point did I ever assert I made a consistent profit, or my friends?

At what point did I ever complain that I did not make a profit?

You are consistently arguing around my points as if I ever expected to make a profit.

Show me, in ANY of my posts anywhere, where I whined about not making a profit.

Explain to me also why mod loot works in general for most players.

Game theory tells us that EU is at best a zero-sum game, in fact less than zero sum, since MA takes a cut. SO not everyone can win\profit.

I'm very sorry if I misinterpreted your post. Sometimes its difficult to nail done just what it is you are trying to say. I had thought your issue was increased losses in crafting and my response to that was, well it doesnt need to be that way.

But just to clarify are you instead pointing to reduced globals\hofs as a problem? If that's the issue, then my response is that swirlies are always nice to have (cos who doesn't like bells and whistles?) but they arent actually terribly relevant to whether you are doing well or badly in crafting. Some bps that I click (big guns) are almost automatic globals if the click succeeds but I can still lose money on a bad run even with several globals. Other bps I click rarely produce globals but I can consistently sell the outputs at a good margin.

So if your mates are telling you that global rate is down lately (are they?) then I'm not terribly concerned since there are more important success factors in this game.

KJ, I am losing faith in you as an independent thinker, because you seem to say that black is white.

Do you not have a fl you talk to? do you just play in a bubble? I am not talking of ME here, but my people in general. You seem to talk as if you are above it all. What is going on here? Did you skip over my comment of my past life because they did not fit in with your illusion?

Oh yes, you never did answer the hof question. What a surprise.

Your personal attacks cannot harm me. "My wings are like a shield of steel".

I'm very sorry if you are having trouble comprehending me. There clearly is some mutual misunderstanding going on here. But you are discounting my experience as not relevant. Earlier you decry anecdotal evidence and then go on to cite conversations with people in your FL. Well ok then. Some people on my FL do well, others do not do so well. I am not some anomaly and neither are the people I interact with. If I can do ok and they can do ok, so can others.

 

[KijkkiJikki]

Hi Peezle,

reading back through the thread I see you have done a bit of editing

try not to apply a not my problem approach to gaming, or your life in general. Because, that shit gets you in a hole. Oh look I got me a 1k,4k, 20k Hof, so I AM OK. Nope. Not a solution to life or this game. This is the illusion. Did you read that bit? The illusion they are spinning.

Why cannot we turn off Hofs ? Why? Once you answer this all becomes clear.

Well that's not my approach to the game or life. I don't judge my success or the success of others in the game by HOFs. As I discussed earlier, they aren't particularly relevant to my evaluation of my enjoyment or success other than as a feel good factor from trumpets and swirling lights.

Global reporting of HOFs is clearly marketing from MA. I don't dispute that. But if you are worried that people are fooled by it then the answer is don't be fooled. I'm not. You are apparently not. So why are you so concerned about not getting many globals\hofs\ath?

If you are not an MA sap, then talk different. Else, it looks bad. Liberal arguments will not cut it.

I'm really not interested in discussing my character or yours. Labelling me as sap, labelling my arguements as liberal doesn't deal with any of the content.

 

[Fifth]

It's pure math, all the way. Something will qualify as a "Global", something won't... in the end of the day, irrelevant.

First step towards not being the confused loser (in any profession) - put your feet on the solid ground, start tracking your results. That's the 1st step. Step 2: start spending some time with analyzing.
From this point forward you're really in the game, competing with others who try to do the same. In the long run luck factor will be eliminated, the long time average return will rely on the quality of your analyzing skills/decisions. (Kikki actually already explained this part better than i did)

If u not ready to go through all this trouble, however, u can also keep relying on pure luck only. If you do this, and knowingly admit this is what you want, it means the statistical probabilities of you breaking even or ending up with profit (in the long run) are close to nil. Then again, at least u won't be so confused about it, it will be the price for your entertainment and that's it.
Besides, all the work and time spent with tracking, calculating, observing and analyzing won't guarantee an automatic success anyway. It's not that easy, and it shouldn't be... It's only a game afterall, not work, it supposed to be fun not tiresome. So, i'd say to be knowingly lazy and to rely on pure luck only is just another, quite acceptable and logical playstyle.


Oh btw, i've always wanted to ask who's all those mysterious guys on your FL? Seems u never get any good advices, no knowledge about the game mechanics, nothing useful at all? Quite frankly, u might want to choose your friends a bit more wisely... Fly with the crows and u will be shot down with the crows lol


Ya i know, i might come across as evil, but then again - it's evil as in "straightforward and fair" not as in "lying and deceiving", no?

 

[lincey]

re

Personnaly when i hit a 20k, i know that i won. My account worth is more than my deposits, i never lose, maybe loss one or two run mining big amped (total nerf like my last FOMA run^^) but in 10 years never loss anything. Maybe that is just a flame post, don't know, didn't understand all but .. Find the best maneer for you to play and earn money.

We can't all win. To get some winners, we've to get loosers.