Time to stop using automated features in development?

[Joat]

Isn't time to use old fashion development in textures, shaders, animations
and so on so things get PROPERLY developed?
Obviously something doesn't work in your development progress, so even if it takes
way more time to develop, you should gain in total time since it seems as it take
even more time to fix broken stuff...

 

[Svarog]

You want them to develop their own engine? Because as I understand it, the "fixing broken stuff" is actually a fighting the limitations of CE2 SDK and whatever else they work with, which is clearly seen from remarks like this one - a seemingly easy tasks take loads of duct tape to accomplish. And when things get loose, it's not just rewriting a couple lines of your own code but figuring out what's happening inside this black box.

The guys made an airplane off a tank and duct tape, and it really does fly. Asking to make it as comfortable as a Boeing is just too much. Hey, it's a damn flying tank, isn't this alone awesome?

 

[Joat]

No I don't want them to develop their own engine because I know they aren't
able to do so... not even close.
What I want them stop doing is to use scripts that makes some timeconsuming
tasks way faster.
But ok I might be wrong, they might not use that anymore... but that would
be even more scary (for me ).

One thing thou', the new area around Corinth is really really good looking imo.
It's just that a lot of people seems to keep crasching over and over again,
in same sections on the server.

EDIT: When it comes to that "mission-issue", I think it's more MAs limitation
in Missionsystem than CE2 SDK.

 

[tamlin]

Isn't time to use old fashion development in textures, shaders, animations
and so on so things get PROPERLY developed?

Wouldn't quite the opposite be more appropriate - to use MORE automation to prevent many of the issues currently created by too much and uncontrolled manual labour?
Note: I'm here referring to only the three named issues.

the "fixing broken stuff" is actually a fighting the limitations of CE2 SDK

That makes it sound like MA have only a binary license (read: a static link library) to CE2. Not even I can imagine it's that horrible. I honestly don't think EU could be able to run in such a limited context.

Chances are greater they did indeed get a source license to CE2, but have such a shitload of changes made the original documentation (provided anything was included) no longer applies, and they were too busy trying to get VU10 to even run that they never came to document what they changed and added. That seems way more plausible, I fear.

What I want them stop doing is to use scripts that makes some timeconsuming
tasks way faster.

Ummm, I must be misunderstanding you, but from that statement it seems you want them to manually do stuff that can't be machine-verified? Please elaborate.

I know for a fact they have done a horrible job when it comes to making especially terrain shaders work on different settings - f.ex. an area that required you to use High gfx settings to find the mission target which was effectively a compact and completely black volume on Medium. But that's not a display of using too much automation, quite the opposite! With enough automation a checker would have told the designers "You are idiots! No one running on Medium will see anything here".

EDIT: When it comes to that "mission-issue", I think it's more MAs limitation
in Missionsystem than CE2 SDK.

Obviously. The game CE2 came from has nothing like "missions" included. For an engine with "missions", the grand-master creator is still, after 15+ years, Bethesda.

 

[SamNinja]

MA makes more money when they keep releasing new features and areas, as opposed to what many of us want: focusing more on bug fixes. It's kind of like Google. All you are to them are advertising dollars; they don't actually give two shits about you as a customer. Whatever they do which will increase their shareholder's bottom line, they'll do.

MA has been descending down a slippery slope for years now, and although a buggy product may fail in the very end, when we look at the short-term, touting and releasing new features keeps people interested. It seems as though people on this forum forget (some are just plain 100% stupid) that MA sees financial numbers which the end users never see, and are never going to see. People come on here with "expert opinions" on how the game should be run, what they'd do if they were in charge, what needs to be fixed, and how stupid it is that their gripe has been left on the back burner or ignored. Those types of responses are often emotional ones, although there probably is some truth in that if MA were to cherry-pick and heed specific comments pertaining to player suggestions, the company would make more money and we'd have a better game.

It's also my belief that MA runs a disinformation campaign. For instance, I never believed when MA said they had a private investor sell CLD's back to them. Isn't it convenient how they never released their name? What I believe happened, is MA never got their 6 million but said they did, lied to the community about them selling out, then did a second wave making people think that they were buying a hot item. The problem with this RCE, is that there are no checks and balances as you would see on a quarterly report of a publicly traded company. Sure, you can see MA's semi-annual reports, but it doesn't allow players to view and scrutinize specifics in relation to in-game trades and transactions. For this reason and others, I trust mostly nothing MA says. The truth is, that it's an artificial economy 100% manipulated by MindArk. Don't count on any large amount of bug fixes soon, when the game is teeter-tottering between a money loser to barely breaking even. Bug fixes aren't what will bring those boku bucks through the front door at this point in time.

 

[PaulCrystal]

MA makes more money when they keep releasing new features and areas, as opposed to what many of us want: focusing more on bug fixes. It's kind of like Google. All you are to them are advertising dollars; they don't actually give two shits about you as a customer. Whatever they do which will increase their shareholder's bottom line, they'll do.

Yes, they want to keep the game alive. Oh, wait, that means keeping us happy as well as keeping the platform afloat. And the shareholders benefit as well - that is so evil!!!!

MA has been descending down a slippery slope for years now, and although a buggy product may fail in the very end, when we look at the short-term, touting and releasing new features keeps people interested. It seems as though people on this forum forget (some are just plain 100% stupid) that MA sees financial numbers which the end users never see, and are never going to see. People come on here with "expert opinions" on how the game should be run, what they'd do if they were in charge, what needs to be fixed, and how stupid it is that their gripe has been left on the back burner or ignored. Those types of responses are often emotional ones, although there probably is some truth in that if MA were to cherry-pick and heed specific comments pertaining to player suggestions, the company would make more money and we'd have a better game.

Releasing new features is one of the most popular ways of keeping ppl interested - EVERY GAME is doing it, because it works.

It's also my belief that MA runs a disinformation campaign. For instance, I never believed when MA said they had a private investor sell CLD's back to them. Isn't it convenient how they never released their name? What I believe happened, is MA never got their 6 million but said they did, lied to the community about them selling out, then did a second wave making people think that they were buying a hot item. The problem with this RCE, is that there are no checks and balances as you would see on a quarterly report of a publicly traded company. Sure, you can see MA's semi-annual reports, but it doesn't allow players to view and scrutinize specifics in relation to in-game trades and transactions. For this reason and others, I trust mostly nothing MA says. The truth is, that it's an artificial economy 100% manipulated by MindArk. Don't count on any bug fixes soon, when the game is teeter-tottering between a money loser to barely breaking even. Bug fixes aren't what will bring those boku bucks through the front door at this point in time.

You get the reports and think, they are lying, and because you think they are lying they must be lying even though they issued a report that was validated by an official, but that person is in on the conspiracy and they are surely breaking the law because you think they are breaking the law, oh, and they are lying. The person buying the CLD may very well be an employee, manager of MA or a company created especially for this task, but wait, even then the statement about the big investor is true. But that doesn't matter, because in your head they are lying anyway.

P.S. Disregard any bugfixes issued in almost every VU.

 

[SamNinja]

Yes, they want to keep the game alive. Oh, wait, that means keeping us happy as well as keeping the platform afloat. And the shareholders benefit as well - that is so evil!!!!

The OP was complaining about the game being buggy, and speculated that MA should stop using automated features for development because it contributed to bugs. I never insinuated that what I said about rapid development was "evil".

Releasing new features is one of the most popular ways of keeping ppl interested - EVERY GAME is doing it, because it works.

Right, and we're working within the framework of the OP's post; which was me responding to why, even though his idea is good (though not using automation is a bad idea), stuff remains broken year after year.

You get the reports and think, they are lying, and because you think they are lying they must be lying even though they issued a report that was validated by an official, but that person is in on the conspiracy and they are surely breaking the law because you think they are breaking the law, oh, and they are lying. The person buying the CLD may very well be an employee, manager of MA or a company created especially for this task, but wait, even then the statement about the big investor is true. But that doesn't matter, because in your head they are lying anyway.

P.S. Disregard any bugfixes issued in almost every VU.

Post the "reports" right here, so we can all read them. I have read all semi-annual reports and had never seen anything which showed MA brought in 6 million dollars in the form of deposits from CLD sales. Telling players that they received a certain amount of PEDs from CLD sales when that figure is inaccurate isn't against the law in any country I know of.

 

[Joat]

Wouldn't quite the opposite be more appropriate - to use MORE automation to prevent many of the issues currently created by too much and uncontrolled manual labour?
Note: I'm here referring to only the three named issues.


That makes it sound like MA have only a binary license (read: a static link library) to CE2. Not even I can imagine it's that horrible. I honestly don't think EU could be able to run in such a limited context.

Chances are greater they did indeed get a source license to CE2, but have such a shitload of changes made the original documentation (provided anything was included) no longer applies, and they were too busy trying to get VU10 to even run that they never came to document what they changed and added. That seems way more plausible, I fear.


Ummm, I must be misunderstanding you, but from that statement it seems you want them to manually do stuff that can't be machine-verified? Please elaborate.

I know for a fact they have done a horrible job when it comes to making especially terrain shaders work on different settings - f.ex. an area that required you to use High gfx settings to find the mission target which was effectively a compact and completely black volume on Medium. But that's not a display of using too much automation, quite the opposite! With enough automation a checker would have told the designers "You are idiots! No one running on Medium will see anything here".


Obviously. The game CE2 came from has nothing like "missions" included. For an engine with "missions", the grand-master creator is still, after 15+ years, Bethesda.

It's quite simple, when using scripts that don't do the work properly, you should stay away
from them. Or preferably get new ones...
Using an automated feature in development that don't make an optimized result, you'll end
up fixing issues and problems it cause, and that can take a shitl**d of time.
Might be ok when having a designteam of 80-100ppl, but when the team are around 8-10
it's not a effective way to work.

So in theory, yes using more automated features in development is great, both for time spent
per feature, but also keep developers more focused on more content and less tedious boring
repetitive work.
Sadly something in the development progress seems wrong, since so many issues and bugs keep
poping up and also come back.
So no I don't think the staff is crap, I know they are ok, but something in the progress is not ok.
Might be old code that is shared by many features have been tweaked to a level that it isn't
effective and cause issues over and over again.

It's good to see the new area thou' (Corinth server) it shows they have a nice idea and concept
of future graphics.

 

[billairboy]

Post the "reports" right here, so we can all read them. I have read all semi-annual reports and had never seen anything which showed MA brought in 6 million dollars in the form of deposits from CLD sales. Telling players that they received a certain amount of PEDs from CLD sales when that figure is inaccurate isn't against the law in any country I know of.

It is actually a bit strange, I have also been thinking on this. If we look in the annual report for 2011 and 2012, they list the revenue from "Sold Calypso Land Deeds" as 13 704 KSEK in 2012 and 11 022 KSEK in 2011, a total of 24 726 KSEK, roughly around 3,6 MUSD at that time. If I remember correctly all the CLD would have been sold in 2011-2012? So 3,6M/6MUSD, that's around 60% of the revenue they should have had if all of them was sold? I know they kept some, 1000?, to be used as rewards and in the loot. But the numbers still don't add up. So if we take the missing 40 % of 60 000 CLD = 24 000 USD, that pretty much the amount the big investor bought. So where is that revenue in the annual reports?

 

[Joat]

It is actually a bit strange, I have also been thinking on this. If we look in the annual report for 2011 and 2012, they list the revenue from "Sold Calypso Land Deeds" as 13 704 KSEK in 2012 and 11 022 KSEK in 2011, a total of 24 726 KSEK, roughly around 3,6 MUSD at that time. If I remember correctly all the CLD would have been sold in 2011-2012? So 3,6M/6MUSD, that's around 60% of the revenue they should have had if all of them was sold? I know they kept some, 1000?, to be used as rewards and in the loot. But the numbers still don't add up. So if we take the missing 40 % of 60 000 CLD = 24 000 USD, that pretty much the amount the big investor bought. So where is that revenue in the annual reports?

They might list the fresh cash from depos in the annual report and not values alredy ingame?

 

[billairboy]

They might list the fresh cash from depos in the annual report and not values alredy ingame?

Yes, but how do they know if the money I deposited is to buy CLDs or to play with?

 

[Joat]

Yes, but how do they know if the money I deposited is to buy CLDs or to play with?

We can't know but MA can... if you look at your numbers again, among those 60%
you mention first, that could be the investors depo for buying his/her amount + others
direct depo for buying CLD.
The "missing" 40% could be from values already ingame...

 

[PaulCrystal]

We can't know but MA can... if you look at your numbers again, among those 60%
you mention first, that could be the investors depo for buying his/her amount + others
direct depo for buying CLD.
The "missing" 40% could be from values already ingame...

Maybe, but it would be nice to know.

 

[GeorgeSkywalker]

Maybe the spent the missing amount on something e.g. newer servers or some other project which we are not aware of.

 

[billairboy]

We can't know but MA can... if you look at your numbers again, among those 60%
you mention first, that could be the investors depo for buying his/her amount + others
direct depo for buying CLD.
The "missing" 40% could be from values already ingame...

It could also be that the big investor did not pay with money, maybe the investor got the CLD as payment for something.

 

[SamNinja]

It could also be that the big investor did not pay with money, maybe the investor got the CLD as payment for something.

Maybe they paid with sugar cubes, which appeared out of thin air.

 

[SamNinja]

reserved.............

 

[tamlin]

It could also be that the big investor did not pay with money, maybe the investor got the CLD as payment for something.

At the time I did speculate, in public, it was a settlement payoff to SEE (IIRC they were the ones owning Calypso at the time, before the mess ending in repo).